Raising Godly Tomatoes-Training Children

[debrand]

I had forgotten about this site until I found a link to it from Making Home's blog. Making Home is fundie lite so I was surprised to find that this was one of her recommended resources.

http://raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch04.php

Starting early means teaching your child to obey you as soon as he is able to understand the word �no�. That is usually well before he is a year old. I begin the training process about the time my little ones begin to crawl. At first, it's more of a preparatory phase, where I teach them what "no" means, and check extremes of willfulness or temper. Later, when I expect more of them, I have a much easier time of it. They've already learned that they can't do whatever they please, that I am their rightful authority in life, and that they must obey me. This makes all later training dramatically easier.

What is up with the word, training, among fundies? The only reason that I can think that they don't use the word, teach, is because they are trying to either dehumanize their own children so that they can emotionally handle hurting them or they are setting up artificial moments to 'train' them.

Most of us didn't need to purposely train our child but we did teach our children. There is a difference.

Is it really a kindness to give your child complete freedom to be selfish, willful, and self-centered, then suddenly, a few years later, to change up on him and expect him to be respectful, considerate, and self-controlled?

I don't see a lot of parents who don't discipline their children. Maybe she and I run in different circles. I wish that she would give an example because I don't know anyone that lets their children be selfish or self-centered.

It's perilous to wait until your child has reached the hefty age of two or three years old, as many of the so-called childrearing experts of today are now recommending.

What child training experts is she talking about?

Normal healthy babies are all capable of understanding "no" by the time they can crawl, and often well before that. For a little while, I just move them away from temptations or distract them to avoid trouble, but eventually (the sooner, the better � at least before the age of one) I get serious about teaching them to obey, and use the word �no� to do it.

I start by telling them "no" firmly when they reach for something they shouldn't, stopping them a few times to get idea across. Then I require them to actually obey me when I say "no," rather than me removing or stopping them myself. I watch for them to reach for something forbidden, probably something I've told them "no" to before. I tell them "no," and if they continue to reach for the object, I give them a mild swat on their diapered bottom and say "no" again.

These little ones are usually puzzled and try it a couple of more times, receiving a definite "no" accompanied by a mild, but decided, swat each time. Most of my babies got the idea after just a few "No's" and accompanying firm pats on the bottom. They either turned and crawled away, or sat and cried for a minute until I redirected them to something else. Sometimes they pouted briefly in disappointment, then turned to something else on their own. Once I can see that they are resigned to submission, I congratulate them and then point toward something else, if needed, and encourage them to go play. It is important to let them know what to do, not just what not to do.

You dont' have to do this. Just redirect the child or move the object. Really, there will be plenty of opportunities to teach your child what the word, no means.

From that time forward, I always made them obey any direction I gave. I stop distracting them and removing them from temptations. I make clear what I want, and teach them to obey. Don't think of this as discipline. Think of it as training. You can start training very early - as soon as your baby is old enough to be taught what you mean by "No, no".

Some parents expect too much from their children, but generally, most parents do not expect enough. A one-year-old can be taught to sit quietly in church, for example, and to remain seated at a restaurant and even to be quiet when mom tells him to.

So, I won't overwhelm you all with a lot of reading, I am breaking this into two posts.

[debrand]

Let me share my experience with my third born. I waited a little too long before insisting that he always obey me and he was two years old at the time we began training him seriously. He was well behaved compared to many two-year-olds, but had finally realized just how much he was in control of us, rather than we of him. He quickly become stubborn, willful, and prone to throwing fits. One day we were visiting some close friends and he decided to exert his new found power. He blatantly refused to come to Dad when Dad called him. He ignored Dad and continued playing with our friend�s telephone instead, about six feet from where my husband and I were sitting.

The friends we were visiting were excellent parents and offered their advice, which we readily accepted. They coached us to outlast him, instructing Dad to keep calling him. When he didn't budge, Dad was directed to go over to him, administer a little swat on the bottom (over clothes and a diaper), then return to where he'd been sitting and call him again. We were encouraged to repeat this, pausing appropriately between repeats, until he obeyed us. We never guided him back to us. We never raised our voices or let our tempers flare. We never �forced� him to obey. Sometimes we gave him a mild, but firm swat, and sometimes we only made him look at us while firmly repeating what we wanted.

Finally, after approximately an hour and a half, he began to cry and take a few steps toward us, but he still refused to come all the way. He still did not want to totally give up the power he had enjoyed exerting over us. Each time he took a few steps toward us then stopped, we would replace him back by the phone and call him to come to us again. We devoted the next half hour to making sure he obeyed completely, not just partially. When it was over, he was content and happy and ready to obey any request, just as we asked.

This one outlasting session had a considerable and exciting long-term impact on our child. He clearly learned he was under our authority and must always obey us. He only resisted obeying a few times the following couple of weeks � a huge improvement compared to his usual previous behavior - and each time it took only about fifteen minutes to outlast him. The initial two-hour ordeal never needed repeating. It has been over 20 years since this incident and all 20 years have been extremely enjoyable with this child. I'd highly recommend you adopt this method of teaching "come here" to your child if needed

[formergothardite]

They spanked their child for an hour and a half. :shock: :o Didn't she come here one time? And in that discussion she also referenced some vague child-training experts but refused to provide any proof?

ETA: Making Home blogger coming here, not the raising godly tomatoes person. It was the RGT blogger who spanked their child not making home, right?

[Guest Anonymous]

Sheesh, two year olds act out as a part of their natural ego development. Nothing like squashing that burgeoning ego beneath a rod. It certainly sets the stage for a child to accept abuse at the hands of any other authoritarian person, be they teachers, husbands or peers.

[Trynn]

Holy cow. that sounds like it would be sooooo confusing to the two year old!

[Sweetpea1]

Another shining example of the Pearls school of child training. Ugh... .

[MissSeptember]

They spanked their child for an hour and a half. :shock: :o

Not only did they spank him for an hour and a half, but they did it in someone else's home, as guests!

Can you imagine being a guest in someone's home and spending your whole visit sitting in the living room repeatedly spanking your kid? What is the host supposed to do, just sit there and wait? Hold dinner until the 2 year-old obeys daddy? I don't care how much the host encouraged and gave them tips on how to handle the situation, it is still awkward.

[HowRude]

Sadly I have heard of this before people began to expect to much of their kids based on what experts say kids are individuals and you have to do what works for both your child and yourself.

[Buzzard]

Sounds like they are AWESOME dinner guests! 2 hours of child training? FUN!

Methinks these kids have a greater chance of growing up to be Ted Bundy than those that find a playboy in daddy's closet

[GenerationCedarchip]

Yikes! I've never read RGT, but that seems extreme. Then again, Making Home is also a Ladies Against Feminism contributor and that site strike me as pretty Pearl-friendly so maybe she's a little more fundie than it seems at first blush.

[Guest Anonymous]

Sounds like they are AWESOME dinner guests! 2 hours of child training? FUN!

Methinks these kids have a greater chance of growing up to be Ted Bundy than those that find a playboy in daddy's closet

Whoever she was visiting must have been swilling copious amounts of Kool-Aid in their own right. I should think normal hosts would demand that she either cease her "training" or leave.

[fundiefan]

This kind of stuff makes me too sick to read.

If someone was a guest in my home and did this, I would honestly ask them to leave. Abuse and manipulation are not allowed in my home. Nor is child 'training'.

[Guest Anonymous]

This kind of stuff makes me too sick to read.

If someone was a guest in my home and did this, I would honestly ask them to leave. Abuse and manipulation are not allowed in my home. Nor is child 'training'.

You're a lot nicer than me. I'd call the cops first.

[twin2]

Did they ever stop to think that maybe one reason the son didn't want to come over to his Dad, is because his dad kept hitting him. I wouldn't walk to someone who kept hitting me. THEN when he does start to come over, but doesn't make it all they way, they put him back and start all over again? Ugh. Its just like blanket training, force the kid to misbehave so you can whack them to show he is in control. Sick fucks.

[debrand]

They spanked their child for an hour and a half. :shock: :o Didn't she come here one time? And in that discussion she also referenced some vague child-training experts but refused to provide any proof?

ETA: Making Home blogger coming here, not the raising godly tomatoes person. It was the RGT blogger who spanked their child not making home, right?

The article is from Raising Godly Tomatoes.

On the left of Making Home's site, there is a series of links. The links are organized in groups. One group is beneath the title, I'm Happy To Recommend. No where on Making Home's site is there any reference to spanking her children for an hour and a half, but she does recommend the site.

[Visionoyahweh]

WTF is up with treating kids like lower lifeforms? 'Obedience training' = dogs, 'tomatoes' = plants, what's next, breeding them like cattle?

[thoughtful]

Sounds like they are AWESOME dinner guests! 2 hours of child training? FUN!

Cruel to the child, a stupid waste of time, and idiotic even by the all-behavioral method they think they are using correctly.

Yes, even if this had been a computer program set up to respond by behavioral rules, and not a real, live, vulnerable child, what they did would be stupid.

Any behavior that is repeated is being practiced. If the behavior continues, it is being reinforced somehow.

So, staying away from Dad and playing with the phone led to about an hour and a half of . . . getting to continue staying away from Dad playing with the phone! :shock:

If the swat didn't reduce the unwanted behavior, it was not an effective punishment. Redirecting and blocking access to the phone probably would have been a more effective punishment, even if punishment was all they were looking for!

Redirecting to disappoint his ability to play with the phone, then giving him something appropriate to do, and reinforcing his doing that, probably have done the whole job.

One is supposed to shape a desired behavior, not expect perfection on the first try. So the first few reluctant steps toward Dad should have been met halfway and richly rewarded.

And, of course, being swatted by Dad was probably the source of the reluctance -- duh. "Come over here, right now, child, to the person who keeps causing you pain." :( Pain is never going to lead to more of a desired behavior.

Coming when asked should have been practiced thousands of times, most of them with no temptation around, and with pleasure and reward being the result -- that would build both good habits and a good relationship.

So, even by purely behavioral standards, this was a big mess.

Putting the child's humanity back into the equation, it was a cruel, confusing, immoral big mess.

But I guess they don't care if their child is truly happy to come near them, only that he "accepts their authority."

[demgirl]

Honestly, these people cause me to question the existence of God more than any other thing. Why would God allow people like this to have children? I just -- I don't even know anymore. What is wrong with these parents?

[sugaree]

And I call bs on the "firm pat" terminology. I have frequently given babies firm pats on their diapered bottoms, for they are irresistible (in the same way baby stomachs are to zerbertz and baby feet are to kiss), and the babies either laugh or don't actually notice, because they have on a diaper and it's just a pat. They are not patting the babies. They are hitting them hard enough to hurt.

[AnnoDomini]

UGH. Yeah, that putting the child back where he was when he takes a few steps is BOUND to be confusing.

(slightly--ok, totallly OT) Thoughtful, I've been looking at your avatar for as long as I've browsed FJ and always thought it looked like Alan Rickman, so I had to google 'by grabthar's hammer' and landed on the Galaxy Quest page.So that's what it is.)

[Shina]

WTF is up with treating kids like lower lifeforms? 'Obedience training' = dogs, 'tomatoes' = plants, what's next, breeding them like cattle?

Daddy Botkin and his ovary prayers are way ahead of you there...

[NurseNell]

Comparing tomatoes and children is beyond weird. I took a look at the web site but I just couldn't read much of it.

Nell

[Buzzard]

What kind of sick fucks would have a family for dinner fellowshipping and turn it into "fun times with childtraining"? I can seriously see this going down...

Crazy Fuck Wife 1: "We made TTC tonight with grape kool aid!"

Crazy Fuck Wife 2: "Oh, thats Crazy Fuck Husband 2's favorite! Can you put some extra meat on his plate, I'm thinking hes a bit anemic these days, if you know what I mean..."

Meantime, in the "den"

CFH1: "I got me a new king james bible some heathen was selling at a garage sale. Its totally "like new" since they clearly never opened it. I can add it to my collection..."

CFH2: "Thats a great find! We try to stay away from yard sales because you never know when CFW2 might see some book or something that will make her start thinking... CFC3!!! Stop playing with that phone and come over here, I need to test your ability to come like a dog to show off my manly fathering skills! I said COME! Didnt you hear me, boy, COME!"

Upon hearing the attempt at parenting the womenfolk come in from the kitchen

CFH1: "Hmm, it seems CFC3 still has a will... thats wicked."

CFW1: "Oh no, thats not very christian... I think we should work on this. I'll turn the oven to warm."

Whereupon all 4 adults proceed to beat and bait a small child for their entertainment and to prove their ability to control a child that is unaware of much more than his line of sight...

[Austin]

Whereupon all 4 adults proceed to beat and bait a small child for their entertainment and to prove their ability to control a child that is unaware of much more than his line of sight...

For an hour and a half. :evil:

[Koala]

Disgusting cows....I swear to god I would have called the police to their sorry asses