Shooting at Oregon Community College

[laPapessaGiovanna]

Well, italy has 60 million people, compared to the usa's 320 million. If there are 88 guns per 100 people, whi is going to figure out where those guns are and get them registered.

And yeah, I'm against more government fees. In theory I'm not against a registry, but it's not something I think would be effective and I don't think it's right to create another tax. Especially since I live in a place where subsistance hunting is a thing and people already have difficulty navigating the english language paperwork. I'm also not ok with more people going to jail. Especially for non violent crimes.

Of course you have to find solutions that fit for you. However since it seems that many of your fellow countrymen are feeling like gun proliferation is a problem, I was explaining how it is managed in this different country.

I repeat that you clearly need to find your own solutions, but going on saying it's too difficult won't solve a thing.

[Maggie Mae]

I said 10 years to mean a hard sentence. However I wouldn't be surprised if I found in some European country you can get 10 years for illegally owning weapons.

We are discussing a shooting not a mass killing by a drunk teenager. However our Parliament is discussing a sort of "driving licence life sentence" (meaning they can't drive anymore or for sme 30 years) for people guilty of killing someone driving a car and to consider it voluntary or premeditate murder if they were driving under influence of substances.

I've known a lot more people who died because of cars (and also the war for oil) than guns. It's not the guns that are the problem. Actually, war death aside, I can't say I know anyone who was killed by a gun. Freak accident, cancer, car "accident," hit-and-run, motorcycle "accident," heart attack, car "accident," mountaineering, avalanche, car collision, bike accident, plane crash, exposure, heart attack, cancer, cancer and car "accident."

What makes someone shoot strangers? What is going on in our society where people feel like going on a video game style rampage is a cool thing to do? Why do we treat teens like children and yet let them drive cars? What are the motives of these weirdos?

[Maggie Mae]

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015 ... .html?_r=0

[mamallama]

I think a federally mandated but not necessarily federally run registry would be a good idea. I think most states are relatively happy with their gun laws and I do think different states have different needs. The problem is when someone can go to someplace that allows private sales and bring it back to someplace that doesn't.

Still, I don't think this will do anything to prevent shootings like the ones this week. It does kind of bother me that poor urban, (usually black), and often completely innocent people are killed by guns at a much higher rate and nobody screams for changes when that happens.

I also think that the NRA bears a lot of the responsibilty for the turn away from responsible gun ownershiip. Now all you hear is "guns don't kill people". When I was growing up (insert old lady accent here) the gun lecture started with "this is a lethal weapon, treat it as such" and included "never, ever point a gun loaded or unloaded, at a person." We recently had a priest point a gun at an eight year old. It was a real, unloaded riflel and the priest said it was just "good natured jesting".

http://www.northjersey.com/news/prosecu ... -1.1424841

[OkToBeTakei]

I've known a lot more people who died because of cars (and also the war for oil) than guns. It's not the guns that are the problem. Actually, war death aside, I can't say I know anyone who was killed by a gun. Freak accident, cancer, car "accident," hit-and-run, motorcycle "accident," heart attack, car "accident," mountaineering, avalanche, car collision, bike accident, plane crash, exposure, heart attack, cancer, cancer and car "accident."

What makes someone shoot strangers? What is going on in our society where people feel like going on a video game style rampage is a cool thing to do? Why do we treat teens like children and yet let them drive cars? What are the motives of these weirdos?

I know we have fundamental differences on this issue. I also know the cultural differences make it difficult to just enact what has been successful in other countries and say..do this. Fixed!

http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-leads-w ... 1443905359

Despite the obvious comparisons this I have come to learn

Ms. Schildkraut said U.S. lawmakers should be wary of trying to mimic gun-control laws abroad. “Our culture of violence is such that our needs are not the same,†she said. “To expect solutions that work in those other countries to work here is not exactly realistic.â€

I honestly don't know the answer. I do think though that saying 'guns' are not the problem and those who cling to this IS probably part of the problem.

[Maggie Mae]

I know we have fundamental differences on this issue. I also know the cultural differences make it difficult to just enact what has been successful in other countries and say..do this. Fixed!

http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-leads-w ... 1443905359

Despite the obvious comparisons this I have come to learn

I honestly don't know the answer. I do think though that saying 'guns' are not the problem and those who cling to this IS probably part of the problem.

It's also been a really long time since I lived in the "mainland," and as such, I seem to have forgotten that yes, I have known people who died from GSW.

The culture of different regions/states make it so that federal gun policy wouldn't work. I do think some states could do better, but then you have issues with interstate commerce and travel.

Maybe a system where we license and register them like cars and boats, but then we have issues with 2nd Amendment rights. (Also I think the car registry is creepy and unnecessary and a cash grab for local governments, but that's another topic.)

[VelociRapture]

It's also been a really long time since I lived in the "mainland," and as such, I seem to have forgotten that yes, I have known people who died from GSW.

The culture of different regions/states make it so that federal gun policy wouldn't work. I do think some states could do better, but then you have issues with interstate commerce and travel.

Maybe a system where we license and register them like cars and boats, but then we have issues with 2nd Amendment rights. (Also I think the car registry is creepy and unnecessary and a cash grab for local governments, but that's another topic.)

Just out of curiosity - what sort of second amendment issues do you mean? If Congress isn't passing any law that legally bars law-abiding and mentally/emotionally component adults from purchasing firearms then I don't think there would be an issue.

[Maggie Mae]

Just out of curiosity - what sort of second amendment issues do you mean? If Congress isn't passing any law that legally bars law-abiding and mentally/emotionally component adults from purchasing firearms then I don't think there would be an issue.

It made sense when I was hangover posting earlier. Now I'm thinking about privacy rights, just cause, search and seizure, and how that intersects with the 2nd Amendment.

[church_of_dog]

And to throw a twist into the discussion, how do we deal with the increasing potential for guns to be made by individuals? (ie plastic molds, 3-D printers, etc) This is another avenue for completely unregistered/unknown-by-the-system weapons.

I don't have any good answer to offer.

[roddma]

Kids are not taught to take responsibility for anything, and parents who will not let them fail. We do not have the resources to deal with the increasing population of disaffected, emotionally detached (it would appear to be), young people, in a country seemingly obsessed with violence. We have coddled our children to the point where they have become emotionally crippled, and stunted. We raise our kids to feel they are all special snowflakes, and try our best to give them a magical childhood, always one upping one another on social media.

I have given up the theory spoiled coddled kids cause everything after reading and studying the Fundies and cults here. While escorting the into the school and fetching backpacks for them are ridiculous, the cause of shootings goes much deeper than spoiled coddled kids or violent video games all day. It's an easy scapegoat to say playing video games, spoiled coddled kids, or watching violent media causes shootings. Each generation has always complained about the one before them.

[roddma]

The thing is, though, that there is ample evidence that this does not work. You think you need a gun to protect yourself? Newsflash: Your having a gun will only serve to escalate any hairy situation you might find yourself in. If a gangbanger is robbing you at gunpoint, you trying to pull out your own gun is only going to get you killed. If someone is breaking into your house and you're pulling your gun on him, people are bound to get killed. I don't know why so many Americans have gotten it into their heads that owning guns will make it safer for them. It does not. It makes it so much unsafer.

Btw, VelociRapture, I understand that what I'm quoting from your post doesn't necessarily reflect your opinion, but that of so many gun owners. It was just a convenient point of entry into this discussion.

So you say please dont shoot me mr/ms robber? It's a right of self-defense in this country. And likely you won't have time to scramble for a knife or baseball bat.

In response to other posts above since Im too lazy to multi quote, no Im American don't own 13 guns.

As far as males shooters go, there are female shooters, but they don't get as as much attention because like said above, if they got attention, everyone would say whats' wrong with society.

I do believe males are more prone to due to gender roles and lower expectations like 'boys will be boys' when they misbehave while females may be tol ato act like a lady and go play with your dolls. One could also gather that males are taken hunting more often than females or given weapons for gifts-bb guns, archery sets etc. Im not syaing it's all the cause, but it' could have some bearing. Anyway, my heart goes out to all involved in another horrible tragedy. Religion is beside the point here, and lunatic Christians(not all) should stop taking everything as an attack on them.

[mamallama]

Wasn't there a story from Columbine about the killers asking victims if they were Christian?

[Maggie Mae]

Wasn't there a story from Columbine about the killers asking victims if they were Christian?

Yeah, but accounts differ on how truthful that statement is. Obviously people's memories aren't infallible. The tapes the murderers made of themselves prior to the event showed they didn't care much for Christianity. But if they actually targeted Christians is disputed. And the two teenagers who have been held up as "dying for their faith" are dead so we can't ask them what really happened. Witness accounts differ.

[doggie]

The shooter was mad because he did not have a girlfriend. Wonder how long the far right will take to say some woman should have taken one for the team and slept with him?

[JillyO]

So you say please dont shoot me mr/ms robber? It's a right of self-defense in this country. And likely you won't have time to scramble for a knife or baseball bat.

Um, yeah, actually. I wasn't suggesting you try to defend yourself with a knife or baseball bat either. I'm saying if you're being robbed, your best bet is to give up your damn wallet. Robbers don't usually want to kill you. But they will if you try to pull a gun on them. But enjoy your right to self-defense. I'm sure it'll do you a whole lot of good. Personally, I value my life too much to try to defend my wallet with my life. But that's just me.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

And to throw a twist into the discussion, how do we deal with the increasing potential for guns to be made by individuals? (ie plastic molds, 3-D printers, etc) This is another avenue for completely unregistered/unknown-by-the-system weapons.

I don't have any good answer to offer.

I don't think so. To make a homemade bomb is easy but a gun is a completely different object. You need technologies and the best materials to make a functioning gun (that doesn't explode in the hands of the user, doesn't get stuck, lasts after the first usage, is accurate to the target). Projectiles are a lot easier, but it depends on the level of performance required, to kill you would probably need good costly materials. All in all, considering how you decribe the gun market in America, it's too easy , cheaper and with a lot better quality to obtain a gun in other ways, I don't think it can be a problem in the foreseeable future.

[Toothfairy]

So an 11yo shot an 8yo over puppies. But hey shit happens. Now if only the 8yo had a gun....

[Blahblah]

So "guns don't kill people, people kill people" has been thrown out as a valid argument. Yes guns are inanimate objects but so are bombs, nuclear devices and surface to air missiles. No one in their right mind would advocate free for all ownership of those things.

If you remove or restrict the guns, logically you remove or restrict deaths by guns. Yes, criminals will have them, but your average disaffected teen won't be able to assemble an arsenal and blow away his school friends. An eleven year old boy won't be able to kill his eight year old neighbour because she wouldn't show him her puppy.

Yes people are killed by cars, workplace accidents, cancer, sharks etc but it's ridiculous to say that no one argues for banning those and use that as a reason not to ban guns either. Guns have one purpose - to kill.

Sorry, bewildered Aussie has gone on a rant again.

[FundieFarmer]

So an 11yo shot an 8yo over puppies. But hey shit happens. Now if only the 8yo had a gun....

I think this is a perfect example of a two-fold problem: fucking terribly irresponsible gun owner of a father, and a child who, for some reason (like others) thinks shooting is an appropriate way to handle the problem.

No loaded gun should be left out where there are children around. That's common sense...or so I thought. But why does this child think this is acceptable? Where did he learn that lesson? The irresponsibility is scary to me, but not nearly as scary as the child thinking this was okay.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

I think this is a perfect example of a two-fold problem: fucking terribly irresponsible gun owner of a father, and a child who, for some reason (like others) thinks shooting is an appropriate way to handle the problem.

No loaded gun should be left out where there are children around. That's common sense...or so I thought. But why does this child think this is acceptable? Where did he learn that lesson? The irresponsibility is scary to me, but not nearly as scary as the child thinking this was okay.

That is exactly what I was trying to say somewhere upthread. If firearms are easily accessible and available (even for children!) plus firearms are culturally accepted, an everyday object as many others, it's so easy that these tragedies happen.

But you know gun proliferation for many Americans is not a problem. So much that policemen approaching people acting as if everyone is armed is perfectly acceptable, because it is not only possible but absolutely probable that random people are armed. So if police shoots an unarmed person it's still perfectly acceptable because they thought he was armed and it was a concrete real possibility.

Sorry for the rant but for me this is madness.

[formergothardite]

This is an article about if they were really shot for being Christian. Not all of them were Christian and it seems like he asked more about their religion in general than just targeting Christians.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... -the-case/

[sparkles]

Yeah, but accounts differ on how truthful that statement is. Obviously people's memories aren't infallible. The tapes the murderers made of themselves prior to the event showed they didn't care much for Christianity. But if they actually targeted Christians is disputed. And the two teenagers who have been held up as "dying for their faith" are dead so we can't ask them what really happened. Witness accounts differ.

This was pretty much dismantled—along with a lot of other misinformation—in "Columbine," by Dave Cullen. Interesting read overall.

[Maggie Mae]

This was pretty much dismantled—along with a lot of other misinformation—in "Columbine," by Dave Cullen. Interesting read overall.

Just to clarify, what was debunked? The killers asking if the victims were christian, or my statement?

[sparkles]

Just to clarify, what was debunked? The killers asking if the victims were christian, or my statement?

Sorry, the bit about asking if the victims were Christian and especially about the Cassie Bernall myth. Columbine was horrific enough but the book goes into detail about how it was manipulated by the media (surprise!) and how many rumors and falsehoods became "truths." It's a very interesting book, as is the chapter with Susan Klebold in Andrew Solomon's "Far From the Tree."

[Maggie Mae]

So "guns don't kill people, people kill people" has been thrown out as a valid argument. Yes guns are inanimate objects but so are bombs, nuclear devices and surface to air missiles. No one in their right mind would advocate free for all ownership of those things.

If you remove or restrict the guns, logically you remove or restrict deaths by guns. Yes, criminals will have them, but your average disaffected teen won't be able to assemble an arsenal and blow away his school friends. An eleven year old boy won't be able to kill his eight year old neighbour because she wouldn't show him her puppy.

Yes people are killed by cars, workplace accidents, cancer, sharks etc but it's ridiculous to say that no one argues for banning those and use that as a reason not to ban guns either. Guns have one purpose - to kill.

Sorry, bewildered Aussie has gone on a rant again.

My guns don't actually have the intention to kill. My biathlon rifle? Not created with any intention to kill. It has features specific for biathlon. My shotgun? Not purchased for the intention of shooting anything but clay pigeons. My car? Not purchased with the intention to kill people, although, much like guns, I know it has that capability and that I need to be responsible and careful with it. Not everyone realizes that, and that's why people die every day in car "accidents." Guns are a tool and they need to be used responsibly. However, people in my state need them. Probably more so than cars.