Shooting at Oregon Community College

[mamallama]

This is an article about if they were really shot for being Christian. Not all of them were Christian and it seems like he asked more about their religion in general than just targeting Christians.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... -the-case/

That's why I asked. I'm wondering if it was becoming a "thing" for Christian's to use these killings to further their agenda. I thought I remembered that the Columbine thing that took hold was more like something the parent's heard and clung to. The morning after the Oregon story broke my co-worker was telling me how the killer asked people if they were Christian and if they said yes he shot them in the head and if they said no he shot them in the legs. I though, no way could this be confirmed and it seems like once again the story is rumor.

[mamallama]

I've known a lot more people who died because of cars (and also the war for oil) than guns. It's not the guns that are the problem. Actually, war death aside, I can't say I know anyone who was killed by a gun. Freak accident, cancer, car "accident," hit-and-run, motorcycle "accident," heart attack, car "accident," mountaineering, avalanche, car collision, bike accident, plane crash, exposure, heart attack, cancer, cancer and car "accident."

What makes someone shoot strangers? What is going on in our society where people feel like going on a video game style rampage is a cool thing to do? Why do we treat teens like children and yet let them drive cars? What are the motives of these weirdos?

Actually the sheer numbers are pretty damn close. 33804 for motor vehicles and 33636 for firearms.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.htm

[laPapessaGiovanna]

Actually the sheer numbers are pretty damn close. 33804 for motor vehicles and 33636 for firearms.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.htm

Since Italy has only 60 millions people, here are the stats about Europe

http://www.flemishpeaceinstitute.eu/670 ... -each-year

[MrsAndiAwesome]

I have given up the theory spoiled coddled kids cause everything after reading and studying the Fundies and cults here. While escorting the into the school and fetching backpacks for them are ridiculous, the cause of shootings goes much deeper than spoiled coddled kids or violent video games all day. It's an easy scapegoat to say playing video games, spoiled coddled kids, or watching violent media causes shootings. Each generation has always complained about the one before them.

I don't think video games are the problem. That's like blaming rock music. It's not the games or the music, it's the individual person and how they interpret it. Also, games are not that realistic. Even with better graphics, you can still tell a major difference between reality and the game.

As for the spoiled kids, this upcoming group of children is absolutely spoiled. But I think a lot of it is because the parents are afraid. We see and hear on the news, internet, etc. That there are pedophiles, rapists, and criminals just waiting to scoop up our kids. Couple that with people wanting to call cps on anything they see and don't like, and you have a recipe for a lot of kids kept indoors and away from other people. I live in a neighborhood that is in the middle of a turnover from older people to younger families, but when we first moved in a few years ago, we were one of only about 3 younger ones. My older kids, who were about 10 and 13 at the time, would take their bikes out and ride around. One of our neighbors called the cops on them. Told the officer that my kids had to be up to trouble since they were out on their bikes. It scared my kids enough that they didn't ride their bikes again for a month. These are older people whose kids ran around but they apparently forgot that. You see stories of cps taking kids away from good parents all because someone called them over something stupid too. The kid walked to school or was home alone at the age of 10. Wasn't there something not too long ago about neighbors calling cops about kids walking to a park on their own?

I do agree with the parents who won't let their kids fail though. And not by pushing them to succeed, but rather teaching them that they can't be held responsible for anything. That worries me. I see and have seen parents that come in and yell at the teachers about their kid being in trouble at school. They refuse to believe that their kid is a problem. It's so much easier to just blame someone else.

Sorry for the wall of text and hopefully I make sense. It's 4:30 in the morning here and I've already been up for over an hour.

[formergothardite]

I don't really buy the idea that kids are more spoiled today. Teen pregnancy is down, teen drinking is down, teen smoking is down, teen drug use is down. Teens are more responsible today than they were 20 years ago. People have been claiming since forever that children are more unruly than they have been in the past.

[MatthewDuggar]

I don't really buy the idea that kids are more spoiled today. Teen pregnancy is down, teen drinking is down, teen smoking is down, teen drug use is down. Teens are more responsible today than they were 20 years ago. People have been claiming since forever that children are more unruly than they have been in the past.

That might be a perception due to helicopter parenting which can cause kids to get completely stressed out. But then, that's a whole other topic.

[OkToBeTakei]

I don't really buy the idea that kids are more spoiled today. Teen pregnancy is down, teen drinking is down, teen smoking is down, teen drug use is down. Teens are more responsible today than they were 20 years ago. People have been claiming since forever that children are more unruly than they have been in the past.

Also anybody trying to say this is the issue would somehow have to prove that it is US teens who are more spoiled hence the gun crime.

Also I think the car comparison is also ridiculous. How many of these deaths were caused by somebody deliberately using their vehicle as a weapon to kill another or other persons?

Same old. I understand some want to or believe they need to have guns but to say that guns are not the issue in gun related crime is kind of stupid.

[formergothardite]

That might be a perception due to helicopter parenting which can cause kids to get completely stressed out. But then, that's a whole other topic.

Or it could be that children are actually getting more responsible. Girl Scouts did a study on this 20 years ago and then again recently, the conclusion of it was that teens today are more likely to make responsible choices than teens 20 years ago. Everything from lying to adults to having sex was addressed and teens today are less likely to say things like it is okay to lie to cover for a friend or that teenage sex is okay.

On the subject of kids being worse today than they were in the past:

.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/16/AR2010071602729.html

Read 10 articles or books on this topic and you'll find yourself wondering whether one person wrote all of them, so uniform is the rhetoric. The central premise is that the problem's dimensions are unprecedented: What's happening now contrasts sharply with the days when parents weren't afraid to hold kids to high standards or allow them to experience failure.

That's why this generation is so self-centered. Take it from journalist Peter Wyden, the cover of whose book depicts a child lounging on a divan eating grapes while Mom fans him and Dad shades him from the sun: It has become "tougher and tougher to say 'no' [to children] and make it stick," he insists.

Or listen to the lament of a parent who blames child development experts for the fact that her kids now seem to believe that "they have priority over everything and everybody."

Or consider a pointed polemic in the Atlantic. Sure, the author concedes, kids have always been pleasure-seekers, but longtime teachers report that what we're now witnessing "is different from anything we have ever seen in the young before." Forget about traditional values: Things come so easily to today's entitled children that they fail to develop any self-discipline.

Powerful stuff. Except that those three indictments were published in 1962, 1944 and 1911, respectively.

The first, published in Pediatrics last May, discovered that there is indeed a parental practice associated with children who later become demanding and easily frustrated. But it's not indulgent parenting. It's spanking.

ETA: School violence in general is also going down. The world is actually not a more scary place than it was in the past. Doesn't mean that we shouldn't discuss problems with lax gun laws, just that we shouldn't leap to the "easy" answer of blaming a spoiled generation of children when a mass shooting happens.

[Maggie Mae]

Also anybody trying to say this is the issue would somehow have to prove that it is US teens who are more spoiled hence the gun crime.

Also I think the car comparison is also ridiculous. How many of these deaths were caused by somebody deliberately using their vehicle as a weapon to kill another or other persons?

Same old. I understand some want to or believe they need to have guns but to say that guns are not the issue in gun related crime is kind of stupid.

You want to believe that people who don't have guns.magically don't kill.people. But the truth is that people kill people and people are irresponsible and careless.

I don't find the car comparison stupid, because I personally see people behaving a hell of a lot more irresponsible with cars than guns. And I personally a lot more afraid of cars thsn guns. And people get away with acting like assholes about their stupid cats that they "have to have," even while our reliance on personal vehicles destroys the environmental, forces us into an unsustainable economic situation, and creates ugly infrastructure. Teens get away with killing people when they cry and run to daddy. The public sees a drugged out drunk white teen who ran over someone in her suv, left the scene, and fake cried deserving of one year. While a child who picks up a legally obtained gun and accidentally discharges it somehow deserves life, even though he just didn't know, because no one taught him gun safety, because people are paranoid to even look at guns.

For me, I don't see or hear about gun crime very often. There were three cases of "mass murder" in my state (according to that vox map that is going around). All were donestic violence. I also think mass murder (where done dude shoots up some place for fun) won't be solved by changing gun laws. Change the gun laws, don't, I don't think it would matter. I'm not going to register guns that no one knows exist. The idea of some registry for anyone in our corrupt and incompetent government to access doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

What I want to know is why people feel the urge to murder in the first place

[Maggie Mae]

Also anybody trying to say this is the issue would somehow have to prove that it is US teens who are more spoiled hence the gun crime.

Also I think the car comparison is also ridiculous. How many of these deaths were caused by somebody deliberately using their vehicle as a weapon to kill another or other persons?

Same old. I understand some want to or believe they need to have guns but to say that guns are not the issue in gun related crime is kind of stupid.

I also don't think it matters if vehicular death is intentional or not. You get into a car, you know you can kill someone. Don't text, do drugs, drink, plsy with the radio, fuck around with your baby and her binkie, don't do anything besides play attention to the task at hand. It's a powerful peace of equipment that can kill people.

[Maggie Mae]

Sorry for my terrible phone typing!

For the record, I'm not opposed to common sense policies. The NRA is being so stupid and getting people all panicked about rights. People who also think that the First Amendment gives them the right to yell and scream at employees at movie theaters and other behavior on private property.

[OkToBeTakei]

http://www.slate.com/articles/technolog ... ng_it.html

[formergothardite]

The problem is that what seems like common sense policies to one person seems over the top to another. To me it is just common sense that there should be gun registries and that there should be tougher laws about privately selling and buying guns. I also think there should be laws about having guns in a home where children live. Not that people can't own guns with children living in the house, we own guns and have kids living here, just laws about how those guns should be stored.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

Thanks for the link OKTBT. I can understand that you can make stats saying everything and it's contrary. What I really don't understand though is: why people feel they have the need to own a handgun or a semiautomatic rifle? Why also they feel like they have the right to own guns? I know the second amendment grants this right, but personally in exchange for my taxes I would want to be granted the right to instruction and healthcare instead than the granted permission to carry something that is made with the only purpose to kill someone.

Also someone stated upthread that you have the right to defend yourselves. I also have that right, but that doesn't mean I have the right to shoot the criminal that's doing a burglary in my home or that's robbing my shop. If I shoot and kill him I must demonstrate that he was effectively threatening my life. It would be quite difficult because usually burglars here are mostly not armed. So if I kill a burglar I would nearly surely be charged for murder. I'd like if someone can explain what happens in America in a similar circumstance.

[Whoosh]

Thanks for the link OKTBT. I can understand that you can make stats saying everything and it's contrary. What I really don't understand though is: why people feel they have the need to own a handgun or a semiautomatic rifle? Why also they feel like they have the right to own guns? I know the second amendment grants this right, but personally in exchange for my taxes I would want to be granted the right to instruction and healthcare instead than the granted permission to carry something that is made with the only purpose to kill someone.

Also someone stated upthread that you have the right to defend yourselves. I also have that right, but that doesn't mean I have the right to shoot the criminal that's doing a burglary in my home or that's robbing my shop. If I shoot and kill him I must demonstrate that he was effectively threatening my life. It would be quite difficult because usually burglars here are mostly not armed. So if I kill a burglar I would nearly surely be charged for murder. I'd like if someone can explain what happens in America in a similar circumstance.

To be totally honest, until I was in my mid 20s I actually believed that I grew up in a country with gun laws similar to what is seen in many European countries. I mean I knew all about the second amendment from an early age, but I thought that in reality most people didn't own a gun. I thought along the same lines with regard to how much force one can use in defense of person or property. For a little context, I am a Masshole through and through (meaning I was born and raised in Massachusetts, USA). I left the state for the better part of 20 years and lived in a few different parts of the country. I was pretty stunned to learn how much the laws vary by state. I was equally stunned to realize how common gun ownership is in some regions of the US and that the variability isn't always all that well explained by an understanding of gun laws.

With regard to defense of person or property, many states (including Massachusetts to the best of my knowledge), you are only allowed to use a level of force that seems reasonably necessary in order to ward off an attacker or other type of criminal. In contrast, many states are known as "stand your ground" states. In the most extreme state codes, you could be justified in using lethal force if an individual merely trespasses on your property. The more I learn the less I want to leave Massachusetts. If I can find recent stats on the rate of gun ownership by state, I will add it to this post. Sometimes it really bothers me that the rest of the world tends to think that the entire US has the same or similar laws and practices when it comes to these things.

Edit to add - breaking the link as I am not to sure what I am doing :P. Also, I want to mention that I am STRONGLY in favor of some realistic gun regulation in the US. However, I am not convinced that the gun culture is driving this horrifying trend in mass killings.

businessinsider.com/gun-ownership-by-state-2015-7

[FundieFarmer]

The NYT had an op-ed on gun ownership as seen from Europe yesterday. I immediately thought of this thread.

This conversation has been resonating with me, as someone upthread asked if Americans are really that scared that they feel they need a gun. I live in a city that vacillates between first and second for most dangerous city in the state. We have a 1 in 13 chance of being a victim of a crime. Since I've been a victim of both a violent crime and a non-violent crime, I really do feel safer when my gun is near me.

But I had that fear even before everything happened, so I want to ask, what is so different that some feel safe? Specifically for those who live in large, metropolitan areas, and especially for those who live in a metropolitan area in another country.

[formergothardite]

Thanks for the link OKTBT. I can understand that you can make stats saying everything and it's contrary. What I really don't understand though is: why people feel they have the need to own a handgun or a semiautomatic rifle? Why also they feel like they have the right to own guns? I know the second amendment grants this right, but personally in exchange for my taxes I would want to be granted the right to instruction and healthcare instead than the granted permission to carry something that is made with the only purpose to kill someone.

Also someone stated upthread that you have the right to defend yourselves. I also have that right, but that doesn't mean I have the right to shoot the criminal that's doing a burglary in my home or that's robbing my shop. If I shoot and kill him I must demonstrate that he was effectively threatening my life. It would be quite difficult because usually burglars here are mostly not armed. So if I kill a burglar I would nearly surely be charged for murder. I'd like if someone can explain what happens in America in a similar circumstance.

From what I understand that is how it is in my state. You have to prove that you felt like your life was in danger. You can't shoot someone who is just robbing you. You can't shoot someone for stealing your car. You can shoot someone if you can prove it is in self-defense and that your life is in danger. So if I'm walking down the street and someone grabs my purse my gun isn't going to help because they aren't threatening my life and I can't shoot them. If someone tries to steal my car, having a gun isn't going to help because I can't shoot them. If I look out my window right now and I know that there is a convicted murderer in my yard stealing my car so he can escape, I cannot get my gun and shoot him. The only way I can use my gun is if my life is in danger.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

The NYT had an op-ed on gun ownership as seen from Europe yesterday. I immediately thought of this thread.

This conversation has been resonating with me, as someone upthread asked if Americans are really that scared that they feel they need a gun. I live in a city that vacillates between first and second for most dangerous city in the state. We have a 1 in 13 chance of being a victim of a crime. Since I've been a victim of both a violent crime and a non-violent crime, I really do feel safer when my gun is near me.

But I had that fear even before everything happened, so I want to ask, what is so different that some feel safe? Specifically for those who live in large, metropolitan areas, and especially for those who live in a metropolitan area in another country.

I live in a rural area (near an area with many artisanal and industrial activities) in the north east of Italy. This is a quite rich and safe area so even if we live in a fairly isolated (by Italian standards, we have 3times the population of Texas and half the land, mostly mountains so isolation by USA standards here is impossible) house we feel relatively safe, robberies are quite common lately (economical crisis) but it never happened to us yet (fingers crossed) and I have never head of violent crimes around here. I have never lived in a dangerous metropolitan area, so I cannot really offer an answer to your question.

[formergothardite]

I don't feel worried without a gun. We do take one when hiking in our woods just because of the coyote problem. One of the reasons is is that all the people I know who got robbed or attacked and had a gun it didn't really help them at all. If someone robs me I'm not going to shoot them. If someone tries to take my car I'm not going to shoot them.

[Whoosh]

But I had that fear even before everything happened, so I want to ask, what is so different that some feel safe? Specifically for those who live in large, metropolitan areas, and especially for those who live in a metropolitan area in another country.

I have been thinking about this question since you asked it, FundieFarmer. I think I am following your thought process. I am sorry to hear you have some trouble feeling safe. That can be a terrible way to feel and is all too common. I want to try to give you the best answer here I can in case anything I might have to say might be helpful to you in some way. I am wondering - are you asking why some people just tend to feel safe even in questionable circumstances? Or are you asking what people do when they are not feeling safe other than rely on a gun? Maybe both?

[Blahblah]

I have been thinking about this question since you asked it, FundieFarmer. I think I am following your thought process. I am sorry to hear you have some trouble feeling safe. That can be a terrible way to feel and is all too common. I want to try to give you the best answer here I can in case anything I might have to say might be helpful to you in some way. I am wondering - are you asking why some people just tend to feel safe even in questionable circumstances? Or are you asking what people do when they are not feeling safe other than rely on a gun? Maybe both?

I live in a capital city in Australia. The only person I know who owns a gun is a farmer friend who uses it for humane killing of stock and pest eradication on his farm (foxes).

I feel safe because death by stranger (i.e. random killings by someone unknown to the victim) is virtually unknown here outside of vehicle accidents. Yes there is person-person crime but it is things like bag snatching in the street and it's rare enough that it makes the evening news. Ditto home invasions, hold ups, etc.

There just isn't an underlying cultural belief that violence is the answer to everything. I don't expect my fellow citizens to be armed and dangerous. I don't expect to be a victim whenever I leave the house.

Of course I am sensible. I wouldn't go wandering around some areas at night by myself, I lock my doors, I stay away from dodgy streets where drunk people gather late at night etc.

Yes there are people with guns who shoot other people but an overwhelming majority of this is violence between criminals who are known to each other (eg bikie gangs, drug related issues) and even this is so few and far between that we are still shocked when it happens.

[DaffyDill]

What Blahblah said.

I think we feel safer here in Aus because there aren't many guns, certainly not in the general community, and as I said in an earlier post, we generally don't have the deep distrust of the police that I see in some US commenters here, so expect them to help when (if) there is an issue - which they do. Our police are state police (federal police operate differently), and are generally pretty community minded and involved in the goings on of their local population. For example, I lived in a country town where the local sergeant was coach of the local football team.

When gun crime happens, it is usually far removed from us (I'm in suburban Sydney) and a situation where one person is shot makes the national news. We don't expect our neighbours to be armed and really, guns don't enter my mind, except when situations like this arise.

The only person I know with guns is my son's friend who is a target shooter for sport. That's it. I'd really hate to live in a place where I didn't feel safe without a gun.

[DaffyDill]

This pretty much sums up the gun control in Aus/gun control is the US cultural differences

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[Toothfairy]

The GOP has all this time to be against abortion but don't do shit about guns. More gun tragedies. The only way one will do something if they're personally affected by it. Stop praying and start doing something GOP

[Peas n carrots]

The NYT had an op-ed on gun ownership as seen from Europe yesterday. I immediately thought of this thread.

This conversation has been resonating with me, as someone upthread asked if Americans are really that scared that they feel they need a gun. I live in a city that vacillates between first and second for most dangerous city in the state. We have a 1 in 13 chance of being a victim of a crime. Since I've been a victim of both a violent crime and a non-violent crime, I really do feel safer when my gun is near me.

But I had that fear even before everything happened, so I want to ask, what is so different that some feel safe? Specifically for those who live in large, metropolitan areas, and especially for those who live in a metropolitan area in another country.

I live in Chicago, and we are known in particular for the gun violence. I think upthread I posted my story of my experiences with gun violence.

I think for me, part of it is I'm not really the intended target of most of the shootings - it's typically gang on gang. Innocent people do get caught in the crossfire though. I was two blocks away when this incident happened and I was going to walk past this bus stop on my way to run an errand. If I had left 10 minutes earlier I may have been caught in the crossfire as well

http://homicides.suntimes.com/2014/07/14/photographer-wil-lewis-killed-in-rogers-park-shooting/

A few months ago I was assaulted while I was running - a man jumped in front of me and hit me in the chest and then threatened to stab me. This happened so suddenly and I was so stunned I forgot I had a phone on me to call the police, much less grab a gun to protect myself. I ended up fleeing the situation - I'm not really sure a gun would have helped, and if anything may have escalated. If I get jumped, I'd rather NOT potentially give the assailant an extra weapon.

Maybe I would feel differently if I was trained to handle fire arms and spent time learning how to use it. But I feel that having firearms would make me a bigger target for crime rather than less so, if that makes sense.