Shooting at Oregon Community College

[VelociRapture]

Why, for the love of the :fsm: are Americans so terrified that they need to own 13 guns and/or assault rifles?? They're afraid of terrorists; they're afraid of their own government; they're afraid of each other.

What a horrible way to live.

Generalizations don't make friends! :lol:

I know it seems like everyone her has guns, but that really isn't true. My fiancé and I don't have any in the house. Neither do our parents or siblings. Some Americans have them because they live in very secluded places and it takes a while for help to arrive - so having a gun could be the difference between life and death for them. Others live in very high crime areas and have them in case something happens. So I don't think a lot of people have them simply for the hell of it or anything.

And full disclosure: the only politicians I fear are Republican assholes who seem intent on triggering WWIII (not to be confused with your normal Republicans who simply don't want to spend tons of money but also don't want to raise taxes on the super rich.)

[Caribou]

Generalizations don't make friends! :lol:

I know it seems like everyone her has guns, but that really isn't true. My fiancé and I don't have any in the house. Neither do our parents or siblings. Some Americans have them because they live in very secluded places and it takes a while for help to arrive - so having a gun could be the difference between life and death for them. Others live in very high crime areas and have them in case something happens. So I don't think a lot of people have them simply for the hell of it or anything.

And full disclosure: the only politicians I fear are Republican assholes who seem intent on triggering WWIII (not to be confused with your normal Republicans who simply don't want to spend tons of money but also don't want to raise taxes on the super rich.)

Fair enough. I apologize.

I rarely watch tv and listen to progressive US satellite radio stations most of the day so perhaps that has skewed my perception as the shows tend to rant and rail against the NRA after such incidents.

Truth be told, we own a home in southern Florida and our daughter attends grad school in NYC and none of us have experienced any gun related violence. I suppose it's just the visceral shock of such an incident (and incessant tv coverage) that upsets me and influences my perspective.

[DaffyDill]

Although Obama has mentioned them a couple of times, Australia's gun laws wouldn't work in the US. It's a mindset thing. Although our countries are allies, and closely related in a lot of ways, as people, we are different.

After we had three or four mass shootings, our government pretty much said to the public "Guys, this isn't on, we have to tighten the laws to stop innocent people being slaughtered" and most Australians said "Yeah, rightio then, good idea". I emphasised "most" as of course there were dissenting voices.

There was an amnesty for around 12 to 18 months where anyone with an illegal weapon could hand it in, without fear of prosecution. As our Constitution allows for the public to be recompensed for any personal property requisitioned by the Government, there was also a buyback scheme, where people were reimbursed for handing in their weapons.

The thing is, you can still live here and have a gun. You just have to have a firearms licence to be able to purchase one, be over 18 (with a few exceptions) and have safe storage for the gun. Your weapons are also registered to you by their serial numbers, and there are strict regulations on particular types of weapons.

Farmers can have guns. People who hunt can have guns. Sporting shooters can have guns. AFAIK, anyone really, who wants a gun for a specific purpose can indeed have one, as long as they pass the security checks. The difference between us and the US is our usual suburban person in the street doesn't want weapons. We aren't a nation of gun carriers, despite our convict beginnings where everyone was armed to protect their properties and families, and to hunt.

And that's why our gun laws wouldn't work in the US. Australians in general don't feel the need to have their own weapons to protect their families. That's what our police do, and most people trust the police to do their job. There are many more people in the US who seem, I don't know... fearful? Paranoid? Distrusting? I'm not sure what it is exactly, but we generally aren't like that. Obviously there are some here who feel that way, but they're the minority, and obviously there are some folk in the US who don't want guns either, but from an outsiders perspective, they seem like the minority.

Some of our restrictions may help in the US, but I really don't know what the answer is.

*Sorry for the rambling. It's just all been on my mind a lot..

[Toothfairy]

Why, for the love of the :fsm: are Americans so terrified that they need to own 13 guns and/or assault rifles?? They're afraid of terrorists; they're afraid of their own government; they're afraid of each other.

What a horrible way to live.

See Americans thinking owning a gun is their god given right. So they love to flash them off and brag. Especially the open carriers. Why does a person need an AR-15? Because it's my right!

[Toothfairy]

And now the fucking christians are profiting off this. Parents and families just lost their children but who cares christians are being killed for their faith. http://www.foreverymom.com/to-the-moms- ... hristians/

[DaffyDill]

I'll just leave this here as a bit of light heartedness, and because Jim Jeffries nails it (IMHO)

Probably NSFW due to language

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[DaffyDill]

See Americans thinking owning a gun is their god given right. So they love to flash them off and brag. Especially the open carriers. Why does a person need an AR-15? Because it's my right!

I think it's more complex than that though Toothfairy. I am sure I read somewhere that Canada have pretty much the same rates/levels of gun ownership per capita as the US, but the Canadians don't seem to have as many mass shootings as their next door neighbours.

I really think it is something that has developed in the psyche of some Americans. A mindset, is all I can think of to call it. Call me full of shit, as I'm a complete outsider and obviously from a different country, so haven't experienced it firsthand, but it seems to go deeper than just "It's my Second Amendment Right!". That's just a convenient hook to hang their hats on. The real question is, why are some folk so entranced, passionate, forceful even about having a gun, and semi automatic and assault weapons, at that? Who is it they fear? Because by the looks of all these mass shootings, the thing they should fear most is themselves...

[Blahblah]

Is part of it the fear that everyone else has a gun, so you have to have one too, "just in case"?

I'm with Daffy. In Aus our mindset is "why would you want/need a gun?" Whereas when I was in the US I got into several debates in which the American response was usually "why would you not want / need a gun?".

We're starting from the opposite ends of the spectrum I think which is some of the reason why our laws wouldn't work.

[RosyDaisy]

Let's not forget those who keep saying if security, teachers, etc. were allowed to carry guns there would have been less deaths/injuries. Except, they can't see the stupidity behind that. If everyone has a gun, just how is law enforcement supposed to know the criminals from the victims and the victims know which idiots with a gun are the criminals? Following that fucked up logic will lead to confusion and even more deaths.

I have a big no guns allowed sign in my house. The only exceptions are family and friends in law enforcement. This is coming from an Alabama redneck who sees young boys going hunting with their daddies as the norm (in general, not that I agree).

[LilyRose]

Although Obama has mentioned them a couple of times, Australia's gun laws wouldn't work in the US. It's a mindset thing. Although our countries are allies, and closely related in a lot of ways, as people, we are different.

After we had three or four mass shootings, our government pretty much said to the public "Guys, this isn't on, we have to tighten the laws to stop innocent people being slaughtered" and most Australians said "Yeah, rightio then, good idea". I emphasised "most" as of course there were dissenting voices.

There was an amnesty for around 12 to 18 months where anyone with an illegal weapon could hand it in, without fear of prosecution. As our Constitution allows for the public to be recompensed for any personal property requisitioned by the Government, there was also a buyback scheme, where people were reimbursed for handing in their weapons.

The thing is, you can still live here and have a gun. You just have to have a firearms licence to be able to purchase one, be over 18 (with a few exceptions) and have safe storage for the gun. Your weapons are also registered to you by their serial numbers, and there are strict regulations on particular types of weapons.

Farmers can have guns. People who hunt can have guns. Sporting shooters can have guns. AFAIK, anyone really, who wants a gun for a specific purpose can indeed have one, as long as they pass the security checks. The difference between us and the US is our usual suburban person in the street doesn't want weapons. We aren't a nation of gun carriers, despite our convict beginnings where everyone was armed to protect their properties and families, and to hunt.

And that's why our gun laws wouldn't work in the US. Australians in general don't feel the need to have their own weapons to protect their families. That's what our police do, and most people trust the police to do their job. There are many more people in the US who seem, I don't know... fearful? Paranoid? Distrusting? I'm not sure what it is exactly, but we generally aren't like that. Obviously there are some here who feel that way, but they're the minority, and obviously there are some folk in the US who don't want guns either, but from an outsiders perspective, they seem like the minority.

Some of our restrictions may help in the US, but I really don't know what the answer is.

*Sorry for the rambling. It's just all been on my mind a lot..

I agree with this completely.

I'm in the UK, so we have always had strict gun control, and after we had a school shooting our response as a country was to make those laws stricter. I'm not overly familiar with our gun laws in the UK, but I think it's similar to in Australia

When you apply for a license you have to state a "good reason" for wanting to won a gun- and certain types of weapons have greater restrictions than others, for example shot guns would only be permitted for something like deer stalking.

You have to have 2 independent referees saying you are suitable to own a gun- they will have to answer detailed questions about the applicants home life, mental state etc.

Your records will be checked fro criminal activity, addiction, or certain mental illnesses- any of which could lead to your application being turned down.

The paper work alone takes hours.

I don't know that such heavy restrictions as ours would work in the US, because of the sheer number of guns already in circulation.

[JillyO]

I know it seems like everyone her has guns, but that really isn't true. My fiancé and I don't have any in the house. Neither do our parents or siblings. Some Americans have them because they live in very secluded places and it takes a while for help to arrive - so having a gun could be the difference between life and death for them. Others live in very high crime areas and have them in case something happens. So I don't think a lot of people have them simply for the hell of it or anything.

The thing is, though, that there is ample evidence that this does not work. You think you need a gun to protect yourself? Newsflash: Your having a gun will only serve to escalate any hairy situation you might find yourself in. If a gangbanger is robbing you at gunpoint, you trying to pull out your own gun is only going to get you killed. If someone is breaking into your house and you're pulling your gun on him, people are bound to get killed. I don't know why so many Americans have gotten it into their heads that owning guns will make it safer for them. It does not. It makes it so much unsafer.

Btw, VelociRapture, I understand that what I'm quoting from your post doesn't necessarily reflect your opinion, but that of so many gun owners. It was just a convenient point of entry into this discussion.

[fancypants]

And now the fucking christians are profiting off this. Parents and families just lost their children but who cares christians are being killed for their faith. http://www.foreverymom.com/to-the-moms- ... hristians/

What a bigoted comment.

[SilverBeach]

My ex-husband was a marksman in the Army and then spent 25 years in law enforcement. He was required to qualify every year. But even he didn't hit the target 100%! Untrained people with firearms in movie theaters, malls, etc. is uber dangerous. In Chicago this week, an ELEVEN MONTH OLD BABY was shot, its mother was killed, at a park. The only solution is love.

[SilverBeach]

What a bigoted comment.

I totally agree. No need to slander all Christians, we are not all the same.

[SilverBeach]

We have guns. We also have a 12 year old son. The guns are not kept in our home, but in a gun safe at my husband's office. We are ranchers and hunters, and having guns is second nature to us. What we have is a culture that is sick, obsessed with being better than, bitter, rejected, offended, and everything else. Universities offer safe rooms that students can retreat to, in case they hear something upsetting from a speaker, hired to speak on campus. Kids are not taught to take responsibility for anything, and parents who will not let them fail. We do not have the resources to deal with the increasing population of disaffected, emotionally detached (it would appear to be), young people, in a country seemingly obsessed with violence. We have coddled our children to the point where they have become emotionally crippled, and stunted. We raise our kids to feel they are all special snowflakes, and try our best to give them a magical childhood, always one upping one another on social media. I see little girls walking around Disneyland in princess dresses, and little girls getting mani pedi's at my local nail salons. WTH? We refuse to allow our kids to struggle. Mass killings can also be accomplished with bombs, and cars. Growing up, we were all dropped off in front of the school, and we made our way inside, and back out, to be picked up at the end of the day. I was totally shocked when my son started school, and everyone walked their kids in, and waited with them until the doors opened. I did the same thing, until I allowed myself not to care what other people thought, and dropped off my son in the circle, and had him find his way ro me after school. My mom is a teacher in another town and says the same thing goes on at her school. Letting him figure it out on his own was unheard of. Even the parents who do drop off older kids, hold up traffic by stopping in the circle, getting out, retrieving a backpack from the trunk, walking around to the other side of the car, and opening the door so their child can get out. It's crazy. The kids in my carpool perfected the tuck and roll. Open door, climb out of car, go to class.There is a park by my house, kids on various sports teams practice there. Parents set up portable chairs and watch them practice. Again, our parents dropped us off and picked us up after practice. I know I am ranting, and it isn't at all directed at you. Our country has changed so much, the way we raise our kids has changed, I fear this will only get worse. I honestly fear being part of a mass casualty while out in public at times.

I hear you, but the sheer number of guns in private hands in America is ridiculous. Many guns are stolen during home burglaries, entering the illegal gun market that way. And gun violence is the number one form of violence. No need to defend having weapons, obviously your family is not part of the problem.

I too sometimes fear being in public places. Never thought America would be like this.

[mamallama]

I put my rant up on facebook and I'll put it there here. I think it's toxic that we debate gun control everytime these shootings happen. Everyone says how many will it take and the answer is an infinite number. Democrats go further into the we have to ban all guns which fuels the republican "they want to take away all my guns". The right reacts with we have to arm everyone and the laws getting past reflect this fantasy. The other thing is everytime this happens people go out and buy more and bigger guns in anticipation of the ban. Next time they're desparate for money they'll sell them illegally for cash.

The shooters in these crimes arten't felons so discussing that now associates it with the calls for a total ban. They're not people who've been hospitalized so I don't get the backlash against the mentally ill. The commonality is that they idolize the previous shooters and want that kind of noteriety. I've been noticing many have a picture that almost seems posed for the nightly news. I really want to start a movement to pressure news outlets to give not coverage the shooters. That's the only thing that will stop this.

[Maggie Mae]

http://theconversation.com/how-us-gun-control-compares-to-the-rest-of-the-world-43590

Research by Stanford University. Interesting reading.

Question for gun owners / hunters / sporting shooters etc. How many of you own semiautomatic, rapid fire weapons? And what do you use them for? These do the most damage in the hands of nutters and I can't for the life of me think why any private citizen would need them. Law enforcement and military, sure, but not everyday people.

I don't have any rapid fire weapons, but I know some people who do. No one "needs" them, but to them, taking that to a gun range and firing it is fun. There are lots of things that people have that aren't needed. Expensive bikes, purses, $100,000+ cars that go faster than anyone should. Small planes, personal jets, bottled water, mountaineering trips, base jumping. All things that people don't need. There are 88 guns per 100 people in the United States. The vast, vast majority of legal guns are treated responsibly.

[GiggleOfGirls]

I'm an (USof)American and I think fear is the root of the problem. I'm not sure where/how the fear started or how to counter it. I can't imagine feeling as though I needed to own a gun for protection. Then again I haven't owned a television set or watched a full news program in around 14 years now, and I'm pretty sure the fear is heavily perpetuated by the television news shows. I stopped watching the news all that time ago because it seemed to me to be spreading a lot of fear that I didn't want any part of consuming regularly.

I would be fine with a program like Australia's. Something needs to change, that's for certain.

My extended family hunts and I'm fine with guns for hunting or competitive shooting purposes (at a gun range). I don't see that our current weapons would particularly help that much against the government/military/police if it really came down to a revolution anyhow.

[Peas n carrots]

What happens in Chicago is a very different dynamic than this - impressionable teens on the streets looking for street cred and can't aim.

I have close call stories that would make you cringe. My husband and I have both personally witnessed shootings (one I saw outside my back window, my DH saw one less than a block from our apartment at the time). Last year we had 2 people shot in front of our building on separate occasions. What happens in Chicago is inter or intra gang violence, and the police usually have a good idea of who is going to be killed through informants, social media etc. Police will actually call on the targeted individuals and give them a heads up - I don't know if it's a live and die by the sword attitude or not but the intended don't always make a move to get out of Dodge.

These kind of mass shootings are a completely different dynamic. The only commonality I see is a glorification of guns and violence. The mass shooters are far scarier to me - it seems these guys fly under the radar and keep their noses clean enough as not to get noticed by the police.

[Maggie Mae]

We keep a gun for protection. From bears. Came in handy once.

I don't know what I would do if I was being attacked in my home. It's only recently crossed my mind that our neighborhood isn't as safe as I thought originally. People move in, people move out, it's no longer the same friendly neighbors. The seclusion that my SO likes so much is starting to make me feel more vulnerable after the burglary.

Some of the fear mongering in the media is driven by the NRA, which is, in turn, driven by gun manufactures and shareholders.

I don't know what the solution is. There are a lot of guns that aren't registered. Guns that are inherited, guns that are gifts, guns purchased before requirements, etc. Guns purchased from a third-party. Guns that no one knows exist.

[mamallama]

I had an experience that gives me inight into some of the "guns for protection argument". I live in NJ and my sister lives in VT. One time she said to me she was surprised I go to NYC everyday without "protection". All I could think was why would I need birth control at work? But over the years I bought a log cabin down the road from her in VT. There was a longstanding battle between the people who live on the road and the ones who use it to access a mud pit the ride quads and mud trucks in. Since it was VT everyone had guns.

One night we were out on the porch and the mud truckers came by and said sexually explict things to my young teenage daughters and neices. Like any good Jersey Girl I cursed them out. The next night they drove by shooting. Like any good Jersey girl I called 911 gave them my info including the ones who I recognized and hung up. They'd already gone by and there was no more shooting. Eventually we went to bed.

The next day at around 1 p. m. a car pulled in and a sherrif's officer got out. We chatted and he said, "I heard you called 911 last night." I said, "Yeah"

He said, "I know you're within your rights to shoot back but we hope you don't. It doesn't solve anything."

I said, "I'm from New Jersey. That's the last thing I thought of but were you here last nignt? Do you know if they found them?"

He said, "We don't respond to (name of town). Towns have the option of paying the sherrif's dept to respond to 911 but this town doesn't. We just come to take a report if there was a crime."

Still don't have a gun but it did bring home to me that one thing about America being a big country is that sometimes we really don't understand what other's lives are like and we project our own experiences on everyone.

[ViolaSebastian]

I've been thinking about this a lot for the past couple of days, and I really think that one of the factors not being addressed is that these shooters are overwhelmingly one type: male. If these mass shootings were overwhelming perpetrated by any other group, for example they were overwhelmingly women, people would be wondering what in the hell is going on, sociologically speaking. Well, something is going on with the socialization of young boys that is making mass shootings like this somehow an acceptable way to deal with problems. Perhaps it's the idea that violence is an appropriate (if not "manly") way to solve a problem? That it's not acceptable for a man to express emotions in healthy ways? I also feel like many young men (particularly young white men, if I'm getting specific) feel that the world owes them things--that they're owed money, sex from women, etc. If they don't succeed in obtaining those things? Well, anger and violence is a cultural approved way to solve that issue.

I really wish that more money would be thrown at research to figure out what's going on with young men these days.

[doggie]

of course gun manufacturers gun shops and the NRA profit from mass shootings. here is a nice gun owner in Oregon almost beside herself with glee. you have to use the links to see the text

https://twitter.com/rorycarroll72/statu ... wsrc%5Etfw

“I’ve just ordered some more ARs,†said the owner, Candi Kinney, referring to assault rifles. “There’s always a rush on them after a big shooting. We can’t keep the stuff on the shelves.â€

https://twitter.com/rorycarroll72/statu ... 92/photo/1

“I’ve just ordered some more ARs,†said the owner, Candi Kinney, referring to assault rifles. “There’s always a rush on them after a big shooting. We can’t keep the stuff on the shelves.â€

[ViolaSebastian]

Ugh, what a despicable person. No matter where you land on the gun control debate, taking joy in your business booming due to the tragic murder of students is beyond the pale.

Also, that is a very nice houndstooth scarf, but does not look like any keffiyeh I've ever seen. She needs to try harder. :shifty-kitty:

[FundieFarmer]

Gun owners like her are the worst kind. Guns are killing machines, no matter what you use them for. Smiling gleefully like that and dressing up Obama? Yick. Too far. Those are just the kind of gun owners those of us with half a brain avoid.