Shooting at Oregon Community College

[Anny Nym]

But why has the constitutional right to own firearms clash with strict gun laws?

I know I must sound terrible naive now, however I´m asking this question in all honesty. Not only with my middle-european mindset, but also as someone who does own a weapon and hunting licence and has also firearm in the house (my husband´s hunting rifles, inherited rifles for no use - we aren´t doomsday proppers or gun nutters or something!). AND is strictly pro-gun laws.

[FakePigtails]

But why has the constitutional right to own firearms clash with strict gun laws?

I know I must sound terrible naive now, however I´m asking this question in all honesty. Not only with my middle-european mindset, but also as someone who does own a weapon and hunting licence and has also firearm in the house (my husband´s hunting rifles, inherited rifles for no use - we aren´t doomsday proppers or gun nutters or something!). AND is strictly pro-gun laws.

Many people believe it's basically a matter of time before the government tries to take everyone's guns (see all the fearmongering about Obama), so any change that makes gun laws more strict (and God forbid anyone propose registering all guns!) is seen as the beginning of a slippery slope to the government going after their weapons if not a direct step that will enable it.

[Criscat]

My mother and I were discussing this last night. I am an Oregonian...and we've had several shootings--Thurston, Clackamas Town Center, and now Roseburg. I think part of the problem is that this is the first real "electronic" generation. Playing violent video games, being on websites that encourage violence, and kids just not having any social and communication skills all make a breeding ground for this. Kids have trouble separating reality from the fantasy--killing in a game hurts no one. Killing in real life has devastating consequences...and they aren't understanding this.

Also, I think that until we address the state of mental healthcare in this country, taking away guns will not help. Look at Chicago. They have on of the toughest gun control laws in the country and has a disproportionate amount of street violence. Criminals will not abide by gun laws and will always figure out how to get a gun. This is why I firmly will hold onto my 2nd amendment right. I don't have a gun,but I sure don't want to take that right away from law abiding citizens.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

@laPapessaGovanna: I don't think I understand you, but I'll try. Here in America we have a constitutional right to bear arms. That is one big stumbling block for limited gun access. Also there are responsible gun owners who use guns for hunting. To be honest, it would not bother me to see guns allowed for law enforcement or military. I hope that makes sense and that I understood what you were saying.

@morri: Sadly they don't. They have this "guns don't kill, people do" mentality. They don't give a rat's ass about the increasing numbers of mass shootings or number of gun related deaths. They don't want their right to bear arms infringed, and that disgusts me.

Sorry my fault I see I didn't explain myself well. Of course police and military must carry guns, otherwise they wouldn't be of any use. The example I gave was to explain that even if you make stricter laws about background checks it wouldn't change anything, imho. Because in countries where only thoroughly checked people such as police and private guards have easy access to guns and those very same thoroughly checked people are the only ones that carry guns daily and so consider guns a normal part of every day life (this is very important imo, because normal citizens that own rifles for hunting purposes don't use them daily and cannot carry them around loaded nor unloaded if not hunting in that very moment, hunt is also very strictly regulated), well these very limited categories of people are by far and large the most represented in shooting stats (not related with their jobs nor with criminal organisation, but only "private matters" such as killing their family members, colleagues, friends etc). For me this means that when people are used to guns in their daily life and they have the right to carry arms around (for whatever reason) those very people, checked, trustworthy people (in theory), are more at risk to shoot. So since these two conditions in America are extended to the whole population (since everyone has the right to carry a gun and the greatest part of the people are used to think guns as part of everyday life) should you one day pass a law to check better the background of those who purchase guns it wouldn't change a thing because the greatest part of the population would still be entitled to own and carry and the greatest part of the population would still think guns as part of every day life, nothing special nor specially dangerous. What I'm trying to say is that you should change really a lot more to lower the rate of random shooters and I don't see it happen, it's your choice. It's true that many people own guns responsibly, but it takes only one person with an automatic rifle (in Italy completely forbidden aside for the military) to make a massacre. Seeing firearms as culturally acceptable and completely normal doesn't help, because you can check people as much as you want but someone will escape. In my country mass shootings (aside from criminal organisations) are non existent not only because laws are strict (because to obtain the permission to own a gun is nothing too difficult) but mostly because in our culture guns are regarded as something extremely frightening and dangerous and are in no way part of people's every day life. Those who make exception for work reasons, as I said before, are a lot more likely to shoot as stats show. I hope I have explained myself better, even if a bit wordy.

ETA I see now that you already understood what I meant, sorry.

[VelociRapture]

I kept trying to write an informative post regarding the subject of gun reform in the states. I failed to keep my composure and remain civil each time. I grew up two towns away from Newtown, CT and my family knows people who were directly impacted by the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School (my father is related by marriage to the family of one of the teachers who was murdered and I was friends in college with the cousin of another teacher who was murdered) - its a very passionate topic for me.

So, instead of devolving into a tirade that might completely undermine everything I have to say about the subject, I'll just be a mature adult and offer up this link instead:

law.cornell.edu/wex/second_amendment

Cornell University Law School is supposed to be a very very good program - their explanation of the different opinions regarding the second amendment is worth taking a look at (especially because they try to keep bias and personal opinion out of it.)

As for the families of the victims - I'm really sorry this happened. I'm also really sorry that the best Congress will offer is their prayers and thoughts, instead of action that could actually make a difference in the future.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

Many people believe it's basically a matter of time before the government tries to take everyone's guns (see all the fearmongering about Obama), so any change that makes gun laws more strict (and God forbid anyone propose registering all guns!) is seen as the beginning of a slippery slope to the government going after their weapons if not a direct step that will enable it.

You don't even have to register firearms ??!?! :wtf: :cray-cray:

That's crazy. Truly crazy. You are e the promised land of gun makers, in such a situation maybe even I would consider carrying a gun.

I truly feel for the victims and their families and for all those who want to see things change because it seems so impossible.

[AmericanAmigo]

Roseburg is a nice little town. This is just so awful. There are exceptions to this, of course, but I see young people, not being able to solve their problems, not knowing how to manage their lives, and emotions, and it leads to tragic events, like today.

I agree. It doesn't even matter about common core or vaccines if the young people can't cope. Also, I believe that this idea of being instantly famous and being important and that life is exactly fair are not healthy things for people to believe. This has got to be an major issue during the new elections, national and state by state. Mental health, counseling for even seemingly small problems needs to be as available as a drink at jack in the box.

[morri]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk ... ng_strip_4

[SilverBeach]

Roseburg is a nice little town. This is just so awful. There are exceptions to this, of course, but I see young people, not being able to solve their problems, not knowing how to manage their lives, and emotions, and it leads to tragic events, like today.

And gun proliferation. Seems like every unstable person in America has one.

[Walking Cat Bed]

It's worth taking some time to read about Chris Mintz: thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/02/forget-oregon-s-gunman-remember-the-hero-who-charged-straight-at-him.html

Mintz is an Army veteran who, despite being unarmed, blocked a door so the shooter couldn't get inside, took several bullets, and saved several lives. He's going to have a rough recovery, but he's a hero. I hope he has a scholarship/grant created in his name.

[Fallgirl30]

And gun proliferation. Seems like every unstable person in America has one.

We have guns. We also have a 12 year old son. The guns are not kept in our home, but in a gun safe at my husband's office. We are ranchers and hunters, and having guns is second nature to us. What we have is a culture that is sick, obsessed with being better than, bitter, rejected, offended, and everything else. Universities offer safe rooms that students can retreat to, in case they hear something upsetting from a speaker, hired to speak on campus. Kids are not taught to take responsibility for anything, and parents who will not let them fail. We do not have the resources to deal with the increasing population of disaffected, emotionally detached (it would appear to be), young people, in a country seemingly obsessed with violence. We have coddled our children to the point where they have become emotionally crippled, and stunted. We raise our kids to feel they are all special snowflakes, and try our best to give them a magical childhood, always one upping one another on social media. I see little girls walking around Disneyland in princess dresses, and little girls getting mani pedi's at my local nail salons. WTH? We refuse to allow our kids to struggle. Mass killings can also be accomplished with bombs, and cars. Growing up, we were all dropped off in front of the school, and we made our way inside, and back out, to be picked up at the end of the day. I was totally shocked when my son started school, and everyone walked their kids in, and waited with them until the doors opened. I did the same thing, until I allowed myself not to care what other people thought, and dropped off my son in the circle, and had him find his way ro me after school. My mom is a teacher in another town and says the same thing goes on at her school. Letting him figure it out on his own was unheard of. Even the parents who do drop off older kids, hold up traffic by stopping in the circle, getting out, retrieving a backpack from the trunk, walking around to the other side of the car, and opening the door so their child can get out. It's crazy. The kids in my carpool perfected the tuck and roll. Open door, climb out of car, go to class.There is a park by my house, kids on various sports teams practice there. Parents set up portable chairs and watch them practice. Again, our parents dropped us off and picked us up after practice. I know I am ranting, and it isn't at all directed at you. Our country has changed so much, the way we raise our kids has changed, I fear this will only get worse. I honestly fear being part of a mass casualty while out in public at times.

[AmericanAmigo]

I hope hero Chris Mintz gets as much attention for charging at the gunman as he wants. There is a GoFund Me account to help with medical expenses. I want to hear his name and not about the shooter.

[2manyKidzzz]

I hope hero Chris Mintz gets as much attention for charging at the gunman as he wants. There is a GoFund Me account to help with medical expenses. I want to hear his name and not about the shooter.

How do you find the GoFundMe.....I guess I just google him?

What a hero. What a real hero.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I found this Salon article about the 4Chan page: http://www.salon.com/2015/10/02/4chan_a ... male_rage/

Here's my question: we keep talking about mental health issues - but what if he wasn't actually crazy, in the clinical sense?

What if we are seeing evidence of a sort of horrible group dynamic, where thanks to mass media and social media, angry losers can see others like themselves and get ideas? These mass shootings aren't just about garden-variety mental health issues. There seems to be anger, entitlement, and some sort of view that they are getting revenge or being martyrs. Twisted as hell, but not psychotic.

How do we stop this?

[Blahblah]

http://theconversation.com/how-us-gun-c ... orld-43590

Research by Stanford University. Interesting reading.

Question for gun owners / hunters / sporting shooters etc. How many of you own semiautomatic, rapid fire weapons? And what do you use them for? These do the most damage in the hands of nutters and I can't for the life of me think why any private citizen would need them. Law enforcement and military, sure, but not everyday people.

[Fallgirl30]

http://theconversation.com/how-us-gun-control-compares-to-the-rest-of-the-world-43590

Research by Stanford University. Interesting reading.

Question for gun owners / hunters / sporting shooters etc. How many of you own semiautomatic, rapid fire weapons? And what do you use them for? These do the most damage in the hands of nutters and I can't for the life of me think why any private citizen would need them. Law enforcement and military, sure, but not everyday people.

Every Thanksgiving morning, we host people at our property (ranch with cattle and horses) for shooting. We are in Northern California. Many people come with rapid fire weapons. They are all gun enthusiasts, and being so, are extremely cautious. Saftey is paramount, everyone uses good judgement. It's like hunters being big conservationists. Everyone we know respects the power these weapons hold. All weapons were purchased legally, when they were legally allowed for sale, years ago. The only time these weapons are used, is in a private setting, such as ours. You are right, everyday people don't need them, just like no one really needs a Hummer, or Lambourghini, or Bugatti. But, like collectors and hobbyists, they find beauty in them.

[Eighth-of-eleven]

I used to work on mine sites in Alaska. Carried a gun on my hip for nine years. I shot for recreation and to test reloads for my husband . I own 14 guns, rifles, handguns, I have a concealed carry permit but i do not carry a weapon any more after my assault and brain injury I don't trust my shooting. This breaks my heart, my sister teaches at a community college in Oregon and I grew up in Oregon near thurston high school, I knew the families involved in the thurston high school shooting. My head is lowered... Sad...

I e worked for many years at a maximum security psychiatric hospital with spree killers, it's all devastating...both sides, nothing else to say.

[VelociRapture]

Every Thanksgiving morning, we host people at our property (ranch with cattle and horses) for shooting. We are in Northern California. Many people come with rapid fire weapons. They are all gun enthusiasts, and being so, are extremely cautious. Saftey is paramount, everyone uses good judgement. It's like hunters being big conservationists. Everyone we know respects the power these weapons hold. All weapons were purchased legally, when they were legally allowed for sale, years ago. The only time these weapons are used, is in a private setting, such as ours. You are right, everyday people don't need them, just like no one really needs a Hummer, or Lambourghini, or Bugatti. But, like collectors and hobbyists, they find beauty in them.

It's unfortunate that not everyone acts with the level of respect and safety that you and your family appear to show. Same could be said about people with powerful cars as well (to use your example) - anyone who doesn't intend to proceed with caution has no business owning something with the potential to be so dangerous.

I am curious about your opinion regarding gun control. Are you in favor of tighter restrictions for the sale of guns - such as universal background checks, waiting periods, or mandatory safety courses for first time gun owners and children? If not, are there other controls regarding the use or sale of firearms you think could help?

[FundieFarmer]

I am also a gun owner. Some were purchased by me, others were inherited. And yes, in my family we do have several assault rifles. My brother bought them when he lived out in the country, and keeps them for protection. Granted, his other guns do just as well, so they are mainly used for events like FallGirl30 described.

As for as gun control restrictions, I'm curious to hear others' ideas of what better control would look like, especially from non-gun owners. In my state, there already are universal background checks and mandatory waiting periods for those buying guns from vendors. Safety courses would be an added plus for those who haven't grown up around them, but I think perhaps just a test would be better. The only suggestion I can think of off the top of my head is that increased registration could help. I have inherited a number of guns and never needed to register them to my name. If I were to shoot someone with it, it is possible it would be traced to my grandfather, or even not traced at all.

But bottom line, as a responsible gun owner, I have to say that we are not the threat. Responsible gun owners are vigilant about safety and restrictions. We, like responsible drivers, know that we hold killing machines in our hands. What the country needs is better awareness of and treatment for disorders and issues that would lead individuals to commit acts of violence like this, coupled with awareness of individuals who are purchasing guns on the black and grey markets. The people we need to worry about are the people who wouldn't register, wouldn't take the test, and already bypass all the regulations in place. Those people are the threats– not the gun owners who go about the proper channels because the proper channels do have checks in place.

[Fallgirl30]

I'm in favor of anything our government can do, to take guns out of the hands of criminals, and unstable nut jobs who wish to go out in a blaze of glory, and take innocent people with them. How that can be accomplished, I have no idea. Personally, guns scare the crap out of me, I don't go near them. I shot my husband's .38, and I'll never do it again, very scary.

[VelociRapture]

I'm in favor of anything our government can do, to take guns out of the hands of criminals, and unstable nut jobs who wish to go out in a blaze of glory, and take innocent people with them. How that can be accomplished, I have no idea. Personally, guns scare the crap out of me, I don't go near them. I shot my husband's .38, and I'll never do it again, very scary.

Thanks for answering! I honestly wanted to hear what someone on the other side of the conversation might think about it. As someone who has never held or used a gun ever I thought it was only fair to ask.

I agree that we need to do something to get guns away from criminals and people who would purposely do harm with them. I really don't know how that can be accomplished though because of the sheer number of firearms already out there (legal and illegal.)

I am also a gun owner. Some were purchased by me, others were inherited. And yes, in my family we do have several assault rifles. My brother bought them when he lived out in the country, and keeps them for protection. Granted, his other guns do just as well, so they are mainly used for events like FallGirl30 described.

As for as gun control restrictions, I'm curious to hear others' ideas of what better control would look like, especially from non-gun owners. In my state, there already are universal background checks and mandatory waiting periods for those buying guns from vendors. Safety courses would be an added plus for those who haven't grown up around them, but I think perhaps just a test would be better. The only suggestion I can think of off the top of my head is that increased registration could help. I have inherited a number of guns and never needed to register them to my name. If I were to shoot someone with it, it is possible it would be traced to my grandfather, or even not traced at all.

But bottom line, as a responsible gun owner, I have to say that we are not the threat. Responsible gun owners are vigilant about safety and restrictions. We, like responsible drivers, know that we hold killing machines in our hands. What the country needs is better awareness of and treatment for disorders and issues that would lead individuals to commit acts of violence like this, coupled with awareness of individuals who are purchasing guns on the black and grey markets. The people we need to worry about are the people who wouldn't register, wouldn't take the test, and already bypass all the regulations in place. Those people are the threats– not the gun owners who go about the proper channels because the proper channels do have checks in place.

I think, like others have posted, that this problem isn't going to be easy to solve because there are so many different contributing factors.

Personally, I think a multi-faceted approach as follows could do a good deal:

- Make background checks mandatory and universal across the country, even for gun shows.

- First time gun owners need to take a safety course and pass an exam in order to bring home their new gun; this could possibly be done during the background check waiting period.

- Provide more resources for mental health treatment at less cost. Insurance companies, I'm talking to you! You know, the ones that don't provide coverage for this stuff (assholes!)

- More buyback programs to get unwanted weapons off the streets.

- Actually do something to create job growth. I've seen stories done regarding studies that have shown that gang violence starts to get worse when there is less opportunities available. It won't solve things completely, but it could help.

- Possibly punishing gun owners who don't take proper safety precautions and whose gun is used in a violent crime or causes an accidental injury/death. I'm talking here about gun owners who honestly don't follow protocol for proper storage or safety, not the owners who take the proper precautions and their gun winds up being used anyway.

(Also, please note, I know that last one is controversial because it could be open to interpretation on what proper precautions are - if that were something that could result in a fine, then it would need to be well defined so it isn't abused.)

Just a few ideas - and please keep in mind that I'm not just thinking about shootings such as this when I speak of gun control. I'm also thinking of those gun owners who are lax about safety - I have seen far too many stories in the past few years where a child has been hurt or killed because they got their hands on a gun. That is inexcusable to me.

[karen77]

Thanks for answering! I honestly wanted to hear what someone on the other side of the conversation might think about it. As someone who has never held or used a gun ever I thought it was only fair to ask.

I agree that we need to do something to get guns away from criminals and people who would purposely do harm with them. I really don't know how that can be accomplished though because of the sheer number of firearms already out there (legal and illegal.)

I think, like others have posted, that this problem isn't going to be easy to solve because there are so many different contributing factors.

Personally, I think a multi-faceted approach as follows could do a good deal:

- Make background checks mandatory and universal across the country, even for gun shows.

- First time gun owners need to take a safety course and pass an exam in order to bring home their new gun; this could possibly be done during the background check waiting period.

- Provide more resources for mental health treatment at less cost. Insurance companies, I'm talking to you! You know, the ones that don't provide coverage for this stuff (assholes!)

- More buyback programs to get unwanted weapons off the streets.

- Actually do something to create job growth. I've seen stories done regarding studies that have shown that gang violence starts to get worse when there is less opportunities available. It won't solve things completely, but it could help.

- Possibly punishing gun owners who don't take proper safety precautions and whose gun is used in a violent crime or causes an accidental injury/death. I'm talking here about gun owners who honestly don't follow protocol for proper storage or safety, not the owners who take the proper precautions and their gun winds up being used anyway.

(Also, please note, I know that last one is controversial because it could be open to interpretation on what proper precautions are - if that were something that could result in a fine, then it would need to be well defined so it isn't abused.)

Just a few ideas - and please keep in mind that I'm not just thinking about shootings such as this when I speak of gun control. I'm also thinking of those gun owners who are lax about safety - I have seen far too many stories in the past few years where a child has been hurt or killed because they got their hands on a gun. That is inexcusable to me.

I'm with Fallgirl, guns scare the crap out of me too. I've only ever shot a BB gun.

Had a guy come to a speech class with a rifle (demonstration speech, wasn't loaded, was going to show how to take it apart and such) I didn't like having it in the room at all, even though this was in '96 and before all the major shooting incidents. ugh, gives me the heebie jeebies.... I refuse to have them in our house. I'd be comfortable if the only access people had was more like Aussie rules.

IF we can't do something since Sandy Hook....what's it going to take?

[Toothfairy]

No other country has this problem but America. I'm sick and tired of seeing gun violence. Too many people are losing their lives. What if that was my kid or me? The government needs to stop worrying about money and pass gun control.

Apparently the shooter was mixed half black and white. I'm seeing tons of racial slurs comments and Obama blaming.

The GOP response ... Abortion? Ban it. Planned Parenthood? Defund it. Immigration? Build a 1000 mile wall. Single mothers? Publicly shame them. Gun control? Meh, shit happens. 

[Caribou]

Why, for the love of the :fsm: are Americans so terrified that they need to own 13 guns and/or assault rifles?? They're afraid of terrorists; they're afraid of their own government; they're afraid of each other.

What a horrible way to live.

[MatthewDuggar]

Why, for the love of the :fsm: are Americans so terrified that they need to own 13 guns and/or assault rifles?? They're afraid of terrorists; they're afraid of their own government; they're afraid of each other.

What a horrible way to live.

I live in America and often wonder that as well. I've lived in small towns as well as large cities in various states and somehow always felt reasonably safe. Sure there are break-ins etc, but they are rare. I have a home security system which should help in those situations.

Maybe is has to do with the people they keep company with? It is perplexing sometimes. I have known a few people that have told me they have guns if their homes "for protection", and I scratch my head and think "from what/who"? It's their right so I don't question it normally.