Joshley Madison Pt 8: Are We Still Talking About This?

[EmCatlyn]

. Yep, some of us lucked out--I was born in 1940, and my parents were open and informative. I don't remember one talk, rather it was just addressed as it came up. By six or seven I was that awful neighborhood kid who told all the rest about it, lol! I was in college and eight months preggers when I got to watch the health 101 baby birthing movie, and tried to figure out how to reverse the whole project (I mean, I knew, but the graphics--jeepers). . . . Maybe because both sets of grandparents were pretty awful and/or absent, my parents made it their life jobs to learn how to be better at it than what had been done to them.

Funny aside, at 8, my son asked me what sex was. I was a little bumfuzzled cause I was damn sure I'd told him before. But went ahead and explained it again. He looked at me with eyes full of wonder, and said, "But Mom, that's how you make babies!" Ah, yeah, well I forgot to tell you that it's also enormous fun. . . .

From what I have read and discussed with friends, most (but not all), American kids after WWII got a little more sex education than earlier generations. In many cases, however, it was awkward and incomplete. So you were indeed lucky.

i was born in 55, and I too had fairly good basic information. I knew all about where babies came from (though not exactly how they got there) before I was 5. But I was sworn to secrecy. I was not to enlighten other children who believed in storks, cabbage patches, or the carpetbag of the Lady from Paris.

Around the time when I was nine, I asked for more details about how women got pregnant and my mom was clearly uncomfortable and left some specifics out, but I got the gist of it. Around age 11, I got hold of a book. By age 17, I had read a lot of very interesting books, including Fanny Hill and a bunch of DH Lawrence, so I had more than a purely scientific stock of information to draw on. But, because virginity was prized in my Latino community, I delayed going beyond a kiss and a little petting until, in my early 20s, I decided that any man who would not want to marry me because I wasn't a virgin was not a man I would want to marry.

This brings me back to Anna and the fundie girls who are kept in ignorance in order to protect "purity." In the first place, they are being denied essential information that might help their married lives. But most importantly, they are being denied the option to choose to be chaste (or unchaste). I chose to remain a virgin until age 22 in spite of a lot of peer pressure and not inconsiderable sexual urges (though masturbation helped). And eventually I chose not to wait until marriage. The fundie girls are given very little choice; ignorance reinforces their helplessness against masculine authority.

Anna can't leave Josh because no matter what he has done, she can't imagine a life that does not include being his wife. She entered marriage with too little information and no real freedom to choose when or how often to have sex. She doesn't feel free to choose to leave either. That is what ignorance does. It limits choices.

Sexual ignorance is a way of reinforcing fundie girls' lack of options.

[apandaaries]

My MIL was the same when she gave birth to her first born (my hubby), this wasn't in the dark ages either, he is only 34!!! When she was in labour her mother told her it was time to go to the hospital and to make sure she said her prayers!!!

I just finished reading Orthodox, by Deborah Feldman. She was raised Hasidic in NYC very recently -- when 9/11 happened, she was still in school. Their religion also mainly ignores the sexual aspect of life until marriage, where the learning curve is expected to be excellent (reality shows things to be very different). She herself wasn't able to consummate her marriage for months (which became a well-known secret in their tight-knit community) and required therapy for anxiety, etc. before she could perform her "marital duties."

Far more horrifying was the story relayed for a former teenage friend of hers. They had been close, but the religious demands of family first, especially after marriage, made their visits far less frequent. However, they did get one quiet afternoon together, post-marriage, to discuss the changes in their lives. Her friend had apparently nearly died on her wedding night. Her husband, educated at a yeshiva, was told by the rabbis to just move quickly to consummate the marriage and win God's approval. Well, he moved quickly but didn't know how to navigate the terrain. He perforated her colon! She told Deborah that there was blood everywhere and she had to go to the hospital.

A perforated colon on a wedding night in the USA in the 21st century.

Even better, the schools at which these children-en-route-to-adulthood were educated were federally funded. And the rabbi-teacher's advice for sexual education: go fast and get it done, cuz that will please Hashem.

[gustava]

I don't know how to link to another FJ post, but on Aug. 6, Ireallyamhopewell posted that they attended McLean Baptist...Dick Cheney's church.

[Idolatry]

If Anna did go elsewhere with her mom...it makes me sad for the M kids that are left behind. Even if it's just for a week....I, personally, think it's bad to ditch the kids when their father is also gone.

Oh please, the M kids would be fine with their many unemployed aunties for a week or many.

[MakeItSo]

Oh please, the M kids would be fine with their many unemployed aunties for a week or many.

I think it's not a matter of 'will they be watched and taken care of'. It's more about the fact that their daddy has already left and now mom is gone, too. The M's haven't grown up being raised by sister moms, and I have a feeling the "yay! We get to play with our cousins!" will wear off at some point.

[EmCatlyn]

I think it's not a matter of 'will they be watched and taken care of'. It's more about the fact that their daddy has already left and now mom is gone, too. The M's haven't grown up being raised by sister moms, and I have a feeling the "yay! We get to play with our cousins!" will wear off at some point.

You know, for the M-kids the J-slaves wouldn't be "sister-moms" but "auntie-moms" and the younger J-kids would not be "cousins" but aunts and uncles. This is what happens in these huge families, the generations get all mixed up.

I think that Anna leaving for a week or so is probably OK for the M-kids, but if it were to stretch out longer, I agree, the kids might feel deserted and confused.

My guess is she won't be away from the kids more than that, though. I just wish she were somewhere taking care of herself, not attending "family sessions" with Josh and/or having to sleep with him during a conjugal visit.

(RU says no visits until 45 days, but we don't know if he is really at RU and following their program. Some rehabs have "family week" around the fourth or fifth week. Many of them discharge the "client" shortly after that.)

Anyway, it looks as if our mystery has expanded from"where is Josh?" to "where is Anna?"

[watchdog]

I did not realize until now that Steve Curington, the founder of RU, died in 2010. He's the guy in the video clips at the beginning of the RU Friday night meetings.

[Jessa's Feet]

I just finished reading Orthodox, by Deborah Feldman. She was raised Hasidic in NYC very recently -- when 9/11 happened, she was still in school. Their religion also mainly ignores the sexual aspect of life until marriage, where the learning curve is expected to be excellent (reality shows things to be very different). She herself wasn't able to consummate her marriage for months (which became a well-known secret in their tight-knit community) and required therapy for anxiety, etc. before she could perform her "marital duties."

Far more horrifying was the story relayed for a former teenage friend of hers. They had been close, but the religious demands of family first, especially after marriage, made their visits far less frequent. However, they did get one quiet afternoon together, post-marriage, to discuss the changes in their lives. Her friend had apparently nearly died on her wedding night. Her husband, educated at a yeshiva, was told by the rabbis to just move quickly to consummate the marriage and win God's approval. Well, he moved quickly but didn't know how to navigate the terrain. He perforated her colon! She told Deborah that there was blood everywhere and she had to go to the hospital.

A perforated colon on a wedding night in the USA in the 21st century.

Even better, the schools at which these children-en-route-to-adulthood were educated were federally funded. And the rabbi-teacher's advice for sexual education: go fast and get it done, cuz that will please Hashem.

Holy shit (no pun intended)! I was in the middle of eating a nice cozy bedtime snack of cinnamon animal crackers and catching up on the boards. When I got to this part, I nearly dropped a cute cinnamon lion out of my mouth when my jaw dropped.

[JenniferJuniper]

I did not realize until now that Steve Curington, the founder of RU, died in 2010. He's the guy in the video clips at the beginning of the RU Friday night meetings.

I had no idea either.

He was only 45.

[CyborgKin]

I like to call this: Heart Pieces Math

I think you've done great. It's when you have to do multiplication, carrying numbers, n+1, or forms of equations to calculate your missing heart pieces. At that point, you know you've given way to many heart pieces away. If you know what I mean. *cough*

(source: https://xkcd.com/55/ )

My favorite part of the article is when the "source" says that josh is the "elephant in the air". hahaha

Is that a duggar source making a mess of a metaphor??

Well, an elephant in the air is worth two in a china shop.

[missegeno]

Xkcd plus fundie logic! I think another piece of my heart flew in your direction. ;-)

[St.Clara]

[snipped] Far more horrifying was the story relayed for a former teenage friend of hers. They had been close, but the religious demands of family first, especially after marriage, made their visits far less frequent. However, they did get one quiet afternoon together, post-marriage, to discuss the changes in their lives. Her friend had apparently nearly died on her wedding night. Her husband, educated at a yeshiva, was told by the rabbis to just move quickly to consummate the marriage and win God's approval. Well, he moved quickly but didn't know how to navigate the terrain. He perforated her colon! She told Deborah that there was blood everywhere and she had to go to the hospital.

A perforated colon on a wedding night in the USA in the 21st century.

Even better, the schools at which these children-en-route-to-adulthood were educated were federally funded. And the rabbi-teacher's advice for sexual education: go fast and get it done, cuz that will please Hashem.

It´s a horrible story, but I really do not understand: why would it make a difference to God whether a believer consummates his marriage (or does whatever for that matter) as quickly as possible, in opposition to waiting for a day or two?

I mean, if God does not have got the time to wait a bit, who should? (Besides, is not there a saying about the mills of God that grind slowly? So that would mean, it´s o.k. if God himself is rather slow with accomplishing what he wishes - but imperfect humans are expected to be so much faster, or else?!!! - Sorry, that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to me. :cray-cray: )

[devoe364]

Maybe it's a generational thing, but I (born in 1991) got a very general sex talk when I was around 7 or 8, and my mom was very open with me about sexuality and gave me a lot of books to read about my body and what changes I would experience as I grew up. My parents let me watch R-rated movies and listen to very risque 70s comedians when I was really young, so they used those as jumping-off points to talk to me about sex, alcohol, and drugs (I remember in Hebrew school I thought stoning was someone getting killed by being forced to smoke too much marijuana; my parents had to explain the difference between stoning and getting stoned). Perhaps I experimented with some sexual stuff too early (I remember my friend taking topless pictures of me when I was 13 -- we thought it was funny and weird then, but now it's just weird), but in general I associated sex with good things and didn't really see it as a bad thing as long as both people doing it wanted to do it. When I lost my virginity at 17, I was honestly really underwhelmed because I knew everything that was going to happen and my boyfriend (lost his virginity at the same time) didn't really know how to make it fun for me other than kiss me a lot. I think my parents having grown up during the sexual revolution (and my grandma being an elementary school teacher who studied psychology) probably informed the way they talked about sex and sexuality with me and how I viewed sex and sexuality.

I wouldn't say its generational - my boyfriend is the same age as you are. He is one of 9 children from a Roman Catholic family.

Me? I'm 10 years older, and my Mom is a single parent, we are relaxed Christians at our most religious.

I got the where babies come from talk (with a book with general pictures and talks of special hugs between mommies and daddies) when I was 5. When I was 18 and started dating and spending nights away from home, I got the birth control talk.

My boyfriend got NOTHING. Just talk about staying pure until marriage. We live together, so I don't think that lesson stuck...

[apandaaries]

It´s a horrible story, but I really do not understand: why would it make a difference to God whether a believer consummates his marriage (or does whatever for that matter) as quickly as possible, in opposition to waiting for a day or two?

I mean, if God does not have got the time to wait a bit, who should? (Besides, is not there a saying about the mills of God that grind slowly? So that would mean, it´s o.k. if God himself is rather slow with accomplishing what he wishes - but imperfect humans are expected to be so much faster, or else?!!! - Sorry, that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to me. :cray-cray: )

From my understanding, the problem is that the marriage isn't real until it is consummated. The genders are kept fairly strictly apart, leading to even more nervousness and anxiety about the wedding night. Women are generally told very, very little, but what they learn is taught to them by someone's wife -- including "clean" and "unclean" times for sex and other activities, which the Duggars vaguely adhere to, but in their own f'ed up way (no mikvah for the Duggarlings!). The grooms are instructed by their rabbis to move quickly, lest their nerves take over and their erection...not take over. ETA: community standing is also very important. Though the bedroom relations are supposed to be between husband and wife, rabbis can also be called in to discuss issues (like whether or not a woman is "clean" and ready for sex again) or other problems. This being an extremely insular community, the actuality is that everyone knows almost everything about everyone else. So news of an unconsummated marriage spreads like wildfire.

(I checked the "mills of God grind slowly" quote to see if it was Old or New Testament, but Google tells me it comes from a Greek philosopher, Sextus Empiricus. Had to include his name in this discussion; far too epic to be left out.)

So it seems that Hasidic communities offer what the Gothardites desire: segregated genders with almost no knowledge of sex or anatomy, who are married off to live with the mate God's chosen. But of course there are issues. The rabbis, wanting the marriages to be consummated and therefore valid and legal in the eyes of the community and God, urge the inexperienced young men to move fast and seal the deal. The women suffer in a number of ways (the author suffered from vaginismus and wasn't able to have sex for months after the wedding; her friend with the perforated colon described the bed as "covered in blood") but carry on.

It's my firm belief that raising people in such segregated fashions with so many sexual taboos (don't even LOOK at a woman!) leads to incredibly unbalanced relationships and generally, horrible sex. There are no stats or data regarding this, though, to the best of my knowledge. Reading books from women who've fled as religious refugees (from a number of strict religious cults, not just Hasidic folks) relate horrible stories about sex, consent, and corporeal ownership. It's quite disturbing.

To conclude, here's an article on an Orthodox sex guru in NYC who works with the Haredi about their numerous issues: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/25/magaz ... .html?_r=0

[apandaaries]

Holy shit (no pun intended)! I was in the middle of eating a nice cozy bedtime snack of cinnamon animal crackers and catching up on the boards. When I got to this part, I nearly dropped a cute cinnamon lion out of my mouth when my jaw dropped.

Sorry about your cracker, but holy shit is right!

[EmmieJ]

I thought something was fishy with the wording of the article at first reading but convinced myself it probably meant Anna was in Florida with her parents.

Staying with her mom could mean a lot of things with the way the Duggars tell a story. I just didn't get the impression they are in Florida i guess. But it does say she isn't in Arkansas. And as mentioned above, would Anna leave her kids behind?

Just sounds odd to me and I can't put my finger on exactly why that is yet.

It sounds odd to me because she has a newborn and I presume she is/was breastfeeding. If the story said that Anna and the baby were with her mom, while the older 3 children were being cared for by their aunts, it would make more sense. But to leave her newborn baby behind? If she did, I get the feeling she was "talked into" going away for some "re-education" on how to be a good wife. Anna is not Michele 2.0. She really seems to not only love all her children, but love being with them. She seems to give their needs more priority than Michele ever did for her children. That's why it seems off to me that Anna would leave all four children to go spend time with her mom. She would know that her children are already unsettled with all these changes - Daddy's not working in D.C. anymore, suddenly we had to move back to Arkansas, Daddy's not around, Mommy is crying and upset a lot, etc., etc. All that upheaval for the children already. It does not match with my perception of Anna as a mother, that she'd think it would be okay to leave her children at this time.

[EmmieJ]

Oh please, the M kids would be fine with their many unemployed aunties for a week or many.

I am sure they would be fine physically. But little kids need stability (heck, most of us adults crave it too) and I'm pretty sure that their mom is the center of their world. That's pretty normal for little kids. The Smuggar kids' lives have been up-ended recently, and their dad has gone away for who knows how long. If their mom goes away too, even for a week, I think they would feel ever more scared about what's going on in their lives. Don't expect little kids to be rational about their mom needing some time to herself. I remember how my siblings and I would give our mom a hard time when she just would take an afternoon to go shopping by herself and leave us in the care of a babysitter. If I knew that my dad had done something "bad" and had to go away for awhile, if my siblings and I had suddenly had to pack up and move (in with my grandparents? into an unfinished house?), and then my mom left too --- it would have freaked me out badly, aunties or not.

[MakeItSo]

You know, for the M-kids the J-slaves wouldn't be "sister-moms" but "auntie-moms" and the younger J-kids would not be "cousins" but aunts and uncles. This is what happens in these huge families, the generations get all mixed up.

I think that Anna leaving for a week or so is probably OK for the M-kids, but if it were to stretch out longer, I agree, the kids might feel deserted and confused.

My guess is she won't be away from the kids more than that, though. I just wish she were somewhere taking care of herself, not attending "family sessions" with Josh and/or having to sleep with him during a conjugal visit.

(RU says no visits until 45 days, but we don't know if he is really at RU and following their program. Some rehabs have "family week" around the fourth or fifth week. Many of them discharge the "client" shortly after that.)

Anyway, it looks as if our mystery has expanded from"where is Josh?" to "where is Anna?"

ooops haha! My family is pretty big, tons of cousins and such and I am so used to calling everyone around my age "cousin" and everyone that's my parents' age my "aunt or uncle" that I just projected that unto them. Sorry. I obviously know the difference :lol:

I still think what I said stands. The M's didn't grow up with anyone but their parent(s) taking care of them (except maybe for some visits at the TTH but even then mommy was around), and having other people take care of them will get old after a while and they will end up missing their parents.

[EmCatlyn]

ooops haha! My family is pretty big, tons of cousins and such and I am so used to calling everyone around my age "cousin" and everyone that's my parents' age my "aunt or uncle" that I just projected that unto them. Sorry. I obviously know the difference :lol:

I still think what I said stands. The M's didn't grow up with anyone but their parent(s) taking care of them (except maybe for some visits at the TTH but even then mommy was around), and having other people take care of them will get old after a while and they will end up missing their parents.

Sorry, I came across wrongly. I was not faulting you for using those terms. My point was more that, for the M-kids, Jana, Jinger and Joy would be seen as another generation (which they are) and as surrogate moms when Anna is not around and to point at the irony that the Younger J-kids are also aunts and uncles.

Anyway, I generally agree with you, though I don't think a short maternal absence, if the kids are left with people they like and trust, will be okay... And I believe that no one has said that Anna left the newborn behind-- only the two or three older ones.

But my question remains: where is Anna?

[Jessa's Feet]

(source: https://xkcd.com/55/ )

Well, an elephant in the air is worth two in a china shop.

LOVE the picture!!!

[Jessa's Feet]

Sorry about your cracker, but holy shit is right!

The lion was briefly filled with hope that his chance to escape was near. I quickly recovered from my jaw nearly coming unhinged from shock. So poor lion missed his chance for a sweet escape and was devoured by my mouth hole.

I typically sing "lalalalala, I'm not lisening!" to drown out the cries of the animals in the cookie box as I grab a handful. Cruel, I know. However, it's the only way that I can keep eating their delicious bodies with less guilt.

[YoshiCat]

Just to add another perspective, I dated a guy from Pakistan. He was the only member of his family in the U.S., the rest of his family was still in Pakistan. All of his brothers and sisters were in arranged marriages. He said that some couples in arranged marriages do not have sex on their wedding night. They wait until they know each other and feel comfortable and they're not pressured to have sex right away. He was from a wealthy, upper class family. I don't know if it's different in lower socio-economic brackets.

Also, his family is culturally Muslim but not really religious. He was sent to a Catholic boarding school (in Pakistan). He also said that he had relatives several generations back who were Jewish and fled Soviet Georgia due to religious persecution. I don't know if the attitude that it's okay for a married couple to wait is present in families with strong Muslim beliefs. He was not at all religious and said no one in his family or their social circles was religious.

[MakeItSo]

Sorry, I came across wrongly. I was not faulting you for using those terms. My point was more that, for the M-kids, Jana, Jinger and Joy would be seen as another generation (which they are) and as surrogate moms when Anna is not around and to point at the irony that the Younger J-kids are also aunts and uncles.

Anyway, I generally agree with you, though I don't think a short maternal absence, if the kids are left with people they like and trust, will be okay... And I believe that no one has said that Anna left the newborn behind-- only the two or three older ones.

But my question remains: where is Anna?

I, in no way, took it as an attack. More of a duh moment haha. but yes, I see what you're saying. I just also think of the fact that a baby might actually have an easier time, than a 4, 5, 6 year old. I think the older M's may not understand everything that's going on but they can easily pick up on the mood of the adults around them. They also understand that daddy's not there anymore and yeah, IF Anna has left...I am pretty sure she didn't leave for more than a few days and they could definitely explain that to the older M's. Still it must feel weird to have daddy leave so suddenly (if he's not hiding somewhere on the compound haha) and now mommy, too. I dunno...

[YoshiCat]

ooops haha! My family is pretty big, tons of cousins and such and I am so used to calling everyone around my age "cousin" and everyone that's my parents' age my "aunt or uncle" that I just projected that unto them. Sorry. I obviously know the difference :lol:

I still think what I said stands. The M's didn't grow up with anyone but their parent(s) taking care of them (except maybe for some visits at the TTH but even then mommy was around), and having other people take care of them will get old after a while and they will end up missing their parents.

My husband has a very large (170+) extended family and we and they all just refer to each other as cousins. It's just easier. And it's sort of awkward to drop things like "my second cousin once removed" into casual conversation.

As for the M kids, they've spent plenty of time at the TTH. I think they'd be fine staying there if Anna is away. They're probably having a great time playing with their Aunts/Uncles and they can talk to their mom or Skype. Kids are adaptable. If they feel safe and loved, they can adjust quickly. And Anna could be back and forth, returning every week or two. It might actually be better for them to be in a big house with lots of kids to play with. They're less likely to sense the tension among the adults, they won't see their mom being sad, etc.

It's actually one of the few good things about their beliefs and lifestyle. There's always family around to help in a crisis. Adult women are available because they don't have job obligations.

[Exposedknees]

I agree- they're safe and folded right in to the howler/ lost girl chaos. Mack seems really close with Josie/Jordan/Jennifer. The fact that the M kids have similar aged aunts and uncles to run around with and Sister-wife-aunts to watch them makes me think they're better off. Their sister aunt Jana took vacations with their family. Anna is just a few weeks post partum with the hormones of that combined with all this Josh drama- she needs a minute. I bet she took the newborn. Kids are very resilient, and will be okay if they feel loved and taken care of.... Despite their twisted fundie beliefs, the Duggars love children. Outwardly Mike and Mack look happy, at least in the pirate and football photos. Give poor Anna a break...