Joshley Madison Part 5 - Rehab and women and porn - oh my!

[Whoosh]

I could see them claiming that the program cost doesn't actually cover all expenses, and therefore EBT and other forms of public assistance for those who qualify is way for the center to to make up the difference as well allow them to charge such a low rate for those who need their "help."

I think this is highly possible in terms of how it would be explained and I think this is quite true for most low cost recovery programs. I think also people need to consider the fact that your average Joe (pun not intended but seen upon editing) isn't likely to have a huge desire to spend time in any type of rehab or recovery facility. I think many of us feel that Josh is doing this stint at the facility not because he recognizes he has a genuine problem that needs to be addressed, but rather as damage control against negative press that is hurting the family "brand" (i.e. the Duggar cash cow). While he wouldn't be the first celebrity to do so, that is not the typical motivation behind enrolling in such a program and the policies governing such facilities are not written with this type of situation in mind. Most individuals who check into a long-term recovery or rehab program have a serious problem with addiction of some sort that they are at least nominally trying to resolve.

Several people have been talking about the fact that this program may not be (or is not - I am not sure) accredited and that the program is not backed by empirical research. I am not sure about the accreditation piece, but the question of whether this or any rehab program is backed by empirical research is an interesting one. Twelve-step programs are seen by many as some type of gold-standard for addiction treatment, yet the research tends to indicate that the actual type of "treatment" is relatively unimportant in predicting successful recovery from addictions. Other factors tend to be far better predictors of success. A big one that people have been mentioning is that the patient/client both recognizes the problem and has a genuine desire to make a change. That is largely out of the control of the program or care providers.

I hope it doesn't sound like I am a fan of the RU program as I am resoundingly NOT. In fact, I agree with many others who see serious potential that such a program could actually cause further harm. I tend to feel the same way about 12 step programs, however. I guess I see this as fairly similar to many other intermediate stage treatment programs that I know of in that I think the underlying philosophy (whether 12 step or fundie based) is seriously flawed (at least in my eyes). Unfortunately, there is not a great gold standard for rehab/recovery programs. Some of the primary reasons for encouraging addicts to opt for a residential program will likely served as well by RU as they would be in many other low-end (cost wise) intermediate programs. The client is theoretically removed from "worldly distractions" than may contribute to the problem. They are closely monitored in an effort to ensure they are not faced with likely triggers for their addictive behavior. They are theoretically focused on recovery 24/7 under the guidance of people who have faced the same issues and recovered. And hopefully such programs will assist patients/clients in taking steps to improve their likelihood of abstaining from the addictive behavior upon discharge. Assisting those in need in terms of getting enrolled in social services programs that will improve their circumstances in the long run (such as food stamps) would be consistent with that last goal despite the fact that it may be done primarily to make money for the program.

I may not be making much sense here. Basically, I am not a huge fan of most intermediate stage treatment programs that I have encountered and that is particularly true of programs that are available to those without a lot of money to throw around. In my eyes this program is far sketchier than a low-end 12 step based intermediate program, but I am not sure there is any empirical basis for that feeling. The fact that the Duggars are likely in a financial position that offers them a variety of options and choices yet are choosing to forego other options in favor of this "economical" facility disturbs me, but that has nothing to do with the set policies of the program.

I am thinking I need to look into 12 step programs for chronic long-windedness. :whistle:

[smittykins]

I now have a visual of J'chelle sitting in the living room with a line of kids through to the dining room waiting for their 15 minutes.

And I can totally see her with a kitchen timer, so she doesn't go over.

*DING!*. "Time's up! Next!" :angry-banghead:

[laundry]

What does 'director' mean in this context? I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean if you're say the director of marketing, or director of finance somewhere you can just walk in and visit people randomly. Or does it? :shifty-kitty:

I think they just misspelled "dictator."

[Pretzel]

And I can totally see her with a kitchen timer, so she doesn't go over.

*DING!*. "Time's up! Next!" :angry-banghead:

Who knew Kid Farm would be less of a parody and more and more an identical depiction of reality years later...

[NormalBikiniWearingMom]

She's not fundie, she's opportunistic. Big difference.

Bingo!!!!

[Whoosh]

Thank you so much, for all of the information. I think you, or Mama Mia mentioned in a different post, that it would not be legal for a facility to receive food assistance, if the clients are making their own food. Maybe I read incorrectly? I believe this facility does indeed, require the residents to do the cooking. From what both of you said, $7,500. is not expensive for treatment. Obviously, I had no idea how expensive treatment could be. Although it appears to be legal, I believe charging someone for a treatment program, and collecting their food assistance, is wrong. I believe it would be better to simply suspend the benefits, while they are in treatment, and let the money stay in the system, for someone else. I think many other taxpayers would agree with me. Additionally, while other programs may charge more, I believe that they are also providing licensed counseling, healthcare, drug tests, etc., and they are for-profit companies. This program seems to be under the umbrella of a church. Therefore, they shouldn't be making any profit, from the clients. In my opinion, they amount they are charging, for basically a bed, and food, which they themselves are cooking, is more than needed, to simply break even. But, I am basing my opinion only what my own family bills are, so maybe I am wrong. Finally, it seems odd to me, that a state government would not require a program to be licensed/accredited, before approving food assistance funds to be turned over a program. :shrug:

To the bolded, I am sorry I was unclear. The point I was trying to make is that a recovery program would not take food stamp benefits from clients who are PURCHASING their own food. I did say "buying and preparing", but the important part is the buying part. Typically the two go hand-in-hand in programs I have seen, but this is fundiland...

I guess that is why this really reminds me of what are called "holdings" in my area. Typically at a holding, the staff are not necessarily "degreed professionals" with the exception of the nursing staff that dispenses medications. Most of the staff are recovering addicts. As I said in my last post, I am not sure that the "treatment" or programing in these low-cost programs is any better and/or empirically backed than what RU purports to offer.

My understanding is that these types of programs can and do require people to turn over their food stamps if they qualify to receive them and realistically RU and other low cost programs include the expected revenues from food stamps when setting their budgets and pricing structures. I know people are not seeing $7,500 as "low cost", but in the world of residential addiction recovery that is low cost for a 6 month program. Government programs and/or insurance actually cover part or all of the costs of similar (but non-fundie) programs for all kinds of people. I am not sure if such funding is true of the RU or similarly faith-based programs.

ETA - I know nothing about any type of accreditation for these types of programs.

[Dark Matters]

Per Libby Anne's blog, looks like Chester the Molester's "rehab" is covering up other child molestations.

www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2 ... verup.html

[ShepherdontheRock]

Who knew Kid Farm would be less of a parody and more and more an identical depiction of reality years later...

"We limit our kid's access to TV, Internet, and the outside world!"

[Sundaymorning]

]

She's not fundie, she's opportunistic. Big difference.

I agree. If the Duggars were a new-age hippie family, who were totally ok with gay marriage and gender equality, I bet Famy wouldn't care as long as she got to be on their tv show.

[rosaline]

As for the source of that article. I agree that Amy is the first source for all the reasons stated by others here but I think the 2nd source is Daniel Keller. The idea that Josh needs to be broken is something Daniel mentioned on Jessa's FB page before his comments were deleted. He said Josh wouldn't truly be broken til Anna left him and he went to Rehab so I think that's him. I just can't imagine any of the siblings talking to the press.

At first, I thought Daniel might be the "broken" source too, because I remember him writing that on Facebook, but it doesn't make sense because the person who says they hope Josh gets broken in rehab is the first person: the same person who talks about growing up together and spending Christmases together. Which means it has to be one of his siblings or Amy, to me.

I did some machine learning text anaylysis in a class recently where we used emails from two people to teach the algorithm how each one wrote, and you could use that to predict which was the author of an unidentified email with pretty high accuracy. There's a piece of me that wants to do this for all the likely sources and these quotes BUT I'm getting married in a week and two days so I will have to spend my time on other things! :lol:

Edited for riffles

[Sundaymorning]

"We limit our kid's access to TV, Internet, and the outside world!"

TLC should really just show the awesome episodes of "kid farm" to their viwers, and admit to them that they are in fact a lot closer to the actual reality than the deceptive "19 kids and counting" crap they've been feeding them for years.

[SassyPants]

Bingo!!!!

No different than JB and Michelle; clearly, she learned from the best!

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Per Libby Anne's blog, looks like Chester the Molester's "rehab" is covering up other child molestations.

Www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2 ... verup.html

This makes me so angry I have no words.

[Sherryburger]

shop.reformu.com/product-p/wap-1.htm

This is for sale on their website, maybe this or a similar item? With a long modest skirt of course! :worship:

That is one ugly shirt. No one wearing it will be able to defraud someone, that's for sure!

[HerNameIsBuffy]

That is one ugly shirt. No one wearing it will be able to defraud someone, that's for sure!

Ugh - button downs. If they are big enough to fit across my breasts without gaping buttons straining to pop then the shoulders are half way down my arm and I look like I'm in giant maternity wear.

And 3/4 length sleeves bug me in an SID way, can't stand them so I'd have to push them up but since they are allowed to bring spray wrinkle reducer I'm thinking they would be opposed to that.

That settles it, I'm not going there.

edited for spelling.

[Idolatry]

What the hell does Pa Keller have against his daughters? He could not have done worse by them if he tried.

Pa Keller's fruits are really bearing something now. :?

I'd love to hear who he picks for the Republican debate so we all know to avoid that guy!

[HerNameIsBuffy]

At first, I thought Daniel might be the "broken" source too, because I remember him writing that on Facebook, but it doesn't make sense because the person who says they hope Josh gets broken in rehab is the first person: the same person who talks about growing up together and spending Christmases together. Which means it has to be one of his siblings or Amy, to me.

I did some machine learning text anaylysis in a class recently where we used emails from two people to teach the algorithm how each one wrote, and you could use that to predict which was the author of an unidentified email with pretty high accuracy. There's a piece of me that wants to do this for all the likely sources and these quotes BUT I'm getting married in a week and two days so I will have to spend my time on other things! :lol:

Edited for riffles

Congrats on the wedding! :dance: And that analysis sounds fascinating. Do you know the name of the software off hand?

[Themiscyran]

Several people have been talking about the fact that this program may not be (or is not - I am not sure) accredited and that the program is not backed by empirical research. I am not sure about the accreditation piece, but the question of whether this or any rehab program is backed by empirical research is an interesting one. Twelve-step programs are seen by many as some type of gold-standard for addiction treatment, yet the research tends to indicate that the actual type of "treatment" is relatively unimportant in predicting successful recovery from addictions. Other factors tend to be far better predictors of success. A big one that people have been mentioning is that the patient/client both recognizes the problem and has a genuine desire to make a change. That is largely out of the control of the program or care providers.

I hope it doesn't sound like I am a fan of the RU program as I am resoundingly NOT. In fact, I agree with many others who see serious potential that such a program could actually cause further harm. I tend to feel the same way about 12 step programs, however. I guess I see this as fairly similar to many other intermediate stage treatment programs that I know of in that I think the underlying philosophy (whether 12 step or fundie based) is seriously flawed (at least in my eyes). Unfortunately, there is not a great gold standard for rehab/recovery programs. Some of the primary reasons for encouraging addicts to opt for a residential program will likely served as well by RU as they would be in many other low-end (cost wise) intermediate programs. The client is theoretically removed from "worldly distractions" than may contribute to the problem. They are closely monitored in an effort to ensure they are not faced with likely triggers for their addictive behavior. They are theoretically focused on recovery 24/7 under the guidance of people who have faced the same issues and recovered. And hopefully such programs will assist patients/clients in taking steps to improve their likelihood of abstaining from the addictive behavior upon discharge. Assisting those in need in terms of getting enrolled in social services programs that will improve their circumstances in the long run (such as food stamps) would be consistent with that last goal despite the fact that it may be done primarily to make money for the program.

I may not be making much sense here. Basically, I am not a huge fan of most intermediate stage treatment programs that I have encountered and that is particularly true of programs that are available to those without a lot of money to throw around. In my eyes this program is far sketchier than a low-end 12 step based intermediate program, but I am not sure there is any empirical basis for that feeling. The fact that the Duggars are likely in a financial position that offers them a variety of options and choices yet are choosing to forego other options in favor of this "economical" facility disturbs me, but that has nothing to do with the set policies of the program.

I am thinking I need to look into 12 step programs for chronic long-windedness. :whistle:

I am not an expert on addictions by any means. I do have a family member who is a counselor working in that area, with an MSW, and FWIW, my understanding, like yours, is that addictions are very hard to treat, and that while 12 step programs are popular and fairly cheap to run, and so work really well for some folks, they certainly do not work for everybody or for every addiction. There are a lot of different perspectives on whether or not a medical "disease" model is even helpful.

But it seems to me that there are red flags about this program, even bearing all that in mind. It doesn't seem to have any staff with secular credentials like an MSW, a Master's of Counseling, any kind of psychology or psychiatry...that is a big red flag for me. Yes, there are many different disciplines that are involved in addiction treatment, and there are many different approaches to addiction used by "experts." But if I were seeking treatment for myself or a loved one, I would want a facility that had people with secular training/accreditation in one or more of these several approaches who were at least supervising, even if day-to-day recovery meetings were staffed by others.

If the only real credentials anyone has in this program are religious, then they should be honest--they are "treating" the problem of sin. They're only dressing it up in pseudo-therapuetic language. What Josh has actually been "diagnosed" with is sinfulness; if they have people who are qualified to diagnose him with an addictive disorder by any secular standard, it sure isn't apparent from their website or materials.

And according to Libby Anne's blog that DarkMatters linked above ( www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2 ... verup.html --thanks DarkMatters!) there are other concerns as well, about the people who run the program covering up sexual abuse. Whether secular or religious, it seems reasonable to be suspicious of any program that's involved with people who sexually abuse others or who enable sexual abuse, particularly if they're claiming they can help someone with Josh Duggar's history of sexually abusive and manipulative behavior.

tl;dr it seems to me there are plenty of red flags about thsi particular program, even leaving aside the question of whether a 12 step programs or another approach can be empirically proven more successful for treating addictions.

[justmy2cents]

At first, I thought Daniel might be the "broken" source too, because I remember him writing that on Facebook, but it doesn't make sense because the person who says they hope Josh gets broken in rehab is the first person: the same person who talks about growing up together and spending Christmases together. Which means it has to be one of his siblings or Amy, to me.

I did some machine learning text anaylysis in a class recently where we used emails from two people to teach the algorithm how each one wrote, and you could use that to predict which was the author of an unidentified email with pretty high accuracy. There's a piece of me that wants to do this for all the likely sources and these quotes BUT I'm getting married in a week and two days so I will have to spend my time on other things! :lol:

Edited for riffles

Are you sure you have your priorities straight? How is your wedding prep more important than sleuthing for Freejinger? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Congrats on your upcoming nuptials!

I reread that article again and I see your point. Here is the paragraph about that 2nd source.

"My heart is broken over this," adding that, "I hope and pray Josh gets the help he needs. I believe he is getting that help. We had no idea about any of this. We love our family and we are praying for Josh. Thank you for all the prayers and support of all the friends and fans."

I now think it could be Michelle or JB himself. Doesn't it kind of sound like the official statement that they released?

[VelociRapture]

Are you sure you have your priorities straight? How is your wedding prep more important than sleuthing for Freejinger? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Congrats on your upcoming nuptials!

I reread that article again and I see your point. Here is the paragraph about that 2nd source.

"My heart is broken over this," adding that, "I hope and pray Josh gets the help he needs. I believe he is getting that help. We had no idea about any of this. We love our family and we are praying for Josh. Thank you for all the prayers and support of all the friends and fans."

I now think it could be Michelle or JB himself. Doesn't it kind of sound like the official statement that they released?

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if this was Deanna and if it was Amy who gave the other statement. I could be totally wrong though, but I just don't think any of the "main" Duggars would be sneaking around to give anonymous quotes to media right now.

And rosaline, I agree with justmy2cents. . . how on earth can you prioritize your wedding over us?! :lol:

I hope you guys have a beautiful wedding! I know it's got to be stressful to a certain extent right now - we're almost two months away from our wedding and I can't wait for it to just get here already so I don't have to plan anymore!

[Kayel]

I reread that article again and I see your point. Here is the paragraph about that 2nd source.

"My heart is broken over this," adding that, "I hope and pray Josh gets the help he needs. I believe he is getting that help. We had no idea about any of this. We love our family and we are praying for Josh. Thank you for all the prayers and support of all the friends and fans."

I now think it could be Michelle or JB himself. Doesn't it kind of sound like the official statement that they released?

The problem with this is, that all the J'kids are trained ( :ew: ) to talk exactly like JB and Jchelle...

[YoshiCat]

I read that article and what's really odd is that the siblings are/were discouraged from sharing their feelings with each other. When Anna started courting Josh she couldn't share with her siblings and was only allowed to share with her mom during that weekly meeting. Were they afraid that talking to an unmarried sister would stir up that sister's desires? Just weird.

This actually makes sense in the context of their twisted beliefs. Thoughts and feelings are not something you figure out for yourself. You are told what your thoughts and feelings are, so that you have the correct ones. If someone talked to a sibling, they might come to a wrong conclusion, like that it's normal to feel lust and that there's nothing wrong with it. They don't want anyone thinking for themselves and have to make sure the brainwashing is constant and consistent. It also reinforces the parent as an unquestionable authority figure.

I don't think it's odd for a parent to consciously make sure to have one-on-one time with each child each week, especially in a large family. It's easy to get caught up in the day to day stuff and lose track of the bigger picture. But non-fundie patents would see it as making sure they're in touch, making sure the kid is okay, making sure they're not missing anything and helping the kid figure things out. And normal, non-fundie parents aren't going to forbid their children from sharing feelings with siblings or limit the talking time to the weekly scheduled meeting.

[Kittikatz]

While the gonnococol bacterium itself is quite vunerable to the outside world, gonorreah is an infection that is frequently accompanied by significant amounts of pus like discharge. This pus enables the gonnococol bacterium to live outside the body sometimes for extended periods of time, leading to the potential for non sexual transmission of gonorrhea. The long term viability of this bacterium when accompanied by these secretions was documented by the Royal Cardiff Infirmary in the 1980s.

Link to pdf study:

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://jmm ... ptl9EVyUaw

Since most people probably don't want to read an entire medical paper, a summary that hits the high points can be found here:

http://throckmorton.me/files/gonorrhea- ... lse-i.html

There have also been numerous documented instances of non sexual transmission of gonorrhea.  From the literature, these mostly occur in when a person has direct or indirect contact with the genital secretions of an infected person. 

//m.sti.bmj.com/content/80/4/327.1.full

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17961874

(Pdf) www.cincinnatichildrens.org/assets/0/78 ... SNLdPcj40g

[Hera]

The "students" must sign a contract that states they understand that this program is not a medical facility and that they do not give medical treatment. Anyone that needs to go to the dr more than 1 or 2 times a month might not be accepted into the program.

I am not against addiction treatment that is not based on the 12 step model. In fact, there is quite a bit of debate about AA as an appropriate model for everyone.

So other models of treatment are ok---but this one is kind of scary sounding. It will only work for a particular set of people.

Sorry. I wasn't explicitly clear, but what I'm getting at is that these are not treatment centers. They're religious retreats (for lack of a better word), and should be very clear that no actual "treatment" is being provided, just prayer and forced labor AND that these methods are not recognized or endorsed by the medical or scientific community. Disclaimers aside, the comments from the facility use words phrases like "most effective method in America" which can lead the less discerning to believe that these methods are tested and legit. And, of course, that's obviously the intent, since it's hard to bilk people out of their hard earned money if you're straight up that your facility is 99% bullshit.

Maybe that's fine for addiction. I'm not an expert there, but my understanding is that the empirical data is mixed, to put it mildly. However, my understanding is that there are people at this facility who may be dealing with food disorders, depression and other actual mental illnesses that the people involved don't necessarily understand are medical diseases, not Satan's Fortresses in Their Hearts. Someone else said it better - the diagnosis for these people is "SIN," which anorexia, bulimia, body dysmorpia, depression and a whole host of other problems are not and treating them as such only makes the problem worse. Unlike Josh's so-called sex addiction, those diseases can and do progress into life-threatening stages if not properly treated. It's unconscionable that any non-medical facility could offer "treatment" for them.

[chelleinchicago]

Ugh - button downs. If they are big enough to fit across my breasts without gaping buttons straining to pop then the shoulders are half way down my arm and I look like I'm in giant maternity wear.

And 3/4 length sleeves bug me in an SID way, can't stand them so I'd have to push them up but since they are allowed to bring spray wrinkle reducer I'm thinking they would be opposed to that.

That settles it, I'm not going there.

edited for spelling.

But....but....it comes in pink. :wink-kitty: