CA Vaccine Law - Pt 2 - Now W/arguments about everything!

[DowntownAbbey]

It may have already happened. There was an episode of Law & Order:SVU where this exact scenario took place. A toddle died from measles, after coming across an unvaccinated child in a park, who caught the disease from a child visiting from the Dominican Republic. They charged the mother of the unvaccinated child with criminally negligent homicide IIRC, and she was found not guilty.

The only reason I'm mentioning it is that although it's a TV show, and obviously not real life, Law & Order often take cases from headlines and re-work them, so I'm wondering if that was the case in this particular episode. I know little about US law, so don't know if this is even possible.

AFAIK, that SVU ep wasn't based on any actual case, but rather was a reaction against the growing anti-vax movement. This Washington Post article has some quotes from the writers on their reasonings behind the ep: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/sty ... lookalike/

It's also not the first SVU ep on vaccines/anti-vaxers: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1248631/

[Terrie]

Terrie, what do I need to back up?

How about your "understanding" of what the hygeine hypothesis says and how it in any way supports NOT giving vaccines? Let's look at how you responded to my reply to your question about what might be causing a rise in AI disorders.

1) You ignored it.

2) When prompted, you gave your incorrect "understanding" of the hypothesis and used this false understanding to support your anti-vax views. Several times.

3) You also claimed that I specifically asked you what you thought of it, when really, I pointed out that your never responded to my answer to your question.

3) When corrected on what the hygiene hypothesis is, you poo-pooed the source without even looking at it.

That doesn't even cover your fear-mongering under the guise of "Just asking question." Or you tendency when confronted with your bullshit to demure "Oh, I don't know anything about that, it's just what I heard." :liar:

[August]

OMG this thread and it's predescssor has kept me entertained for days.

Critical thinking question?? Really?? :nenner:

So hypothetically... you think that getting measles, mumps, polio, tb as a child might prevent asthma and diabetes? :disgust:

A childhood illness is a cold, an ear infection and the like. Measles, mumps, TV, etc are NOT childhood illness, at least not anymore, and why the fuck would we want to change that.

From the WTF department, and only slightly tangential to this question, vaccination against measles actually reduces the odds of dying from other diseases. Measles wipes your immune memory by destroying B and T cells. If you don't get vaxxed for measles you're more at risk for dying from dysentry.

Huzzah for immune fuckery!

[August]

I don't know what you're talking about with the hand washing. I said that was the first line of defense to protect against spreading disease.

And no, I didn't say that! Gee, don't you people read? I was responding to the poster who said that the hygiene hypothesis may explain the rise in AI conditions. The hygiene hypothesis states that we may be seeing more AI conditions because we are too clean and healthy and our immune system gets bored and starts attacking self. I replied saying that maybe we need to get some of these common childhood diseases to prevent chronic illnesses later. Does that make sense? A bout with measles or chronic asthma?

I don't know what you're talking about with the hand washing. I said that was the first line of defense to protect against spreading disease.

And no, I didn't say that! Gee, don't you people read? I was responding to the poster who said that the hygiene hypothesis may explain the rise in AI conditions. The hygiene hypothesis states that we may be seeing more AI conditions because we are too clean and healthy and our immune system gets bored and starts attacking self. I replied saying that maybe we need to get some of these common childhood diseases to prevent chronic illnesses later. Does that make sense? A bout with measles or chronic asthma?

Now, from the department of basic science. Your immune sysytem, to all intents and purposes, sees everything in the world that's not you as foreign (your blood type antibodies are a reaction to FOOD proteins). More specifically, the bugs that amuse your immune system don't have to be diptheria, they can be strep or staph (which live on your skin). Even more specifically, the class of antibodies which are responsible for some immune problems (asthma, seasonal and anaphylactic allergies) are also associated with helminth infection. Yep, worms might stop you becoming allergic to peanuts.

[RosyDaisy]

I'm loving our funny cat chats. Here's my feline headship, Eli:

As you can see he's perfectly healthy and gets vaxxed every year. I don't know if he can read or open doors. He's the headship, and I must do what he wants, when he wants, no questions. He expects instant obedience.

I bet my Eli is a better mouser because he's vaxxed...LOL!

[VelociRapture]

I'm loving our funny cat chats. Here's my feline headship, Eli:

Cats are stupid and I don't respect them.

Cats drool, Dogs rule!!!!

:stir-pot: :popcorn2:

[HarryPotterFan]

Nor is most commonly accepted health and dental care.

I like having all my teeth, thankyouverymuch. Thank God for those unnatural fillings put it some of them using unnatural drills and unnatural numbing shots.

My spinal fusion surgery isn't natural, nor are the titanium rods and screws in my back. But I'm thankful for them because without that surgery I would be in debilitating pain and my scoliosis would have kept progressing.

Want to know what is natural? Arsenic.

Whether something is "natural" or not is a terrible indicator of whether or not it is good for you.

[RosyDaisy]

I bet my cat can beat up you dog...LOL

[HarryPotterFan]

One of my cats can sit, "up" (on hind legs) for treats, and follows me everywhere. Is that due to his anti-parasite medicine?

Possibly. Yesterday one of my cats tried to jump from the couch to the counter and barely missed so he was trying to dig his paws into the granite but he couldn't so he fell like Mufasa (minus the stampede).

Not sure which vaccine I should blame. Silly kitty is so bad at physics sometimes.

[FundieFarmer]

Cats are stupid and I don't respect them.

Cats drool, Dogs rule!!!!

:stir-pot: :popcorn2:

:stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot:

[ShepherdontheRock]

Even Leo/Gatsby agrees with us, VelociRapture. This is a totally credible source of his opinion. Therefore, we must be right!

[attachment=0]gnt21.jpg[/attachment]

:stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot:

Yeah. Dogs are at least smart enough to realize who takes care of them. Cats are unaware that without us feeding them, they'd be screwed.

:stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot: :stir-pot:

[VelociRapture]

I bet my cat can beat up you dog...LOL

I don't have a dog you dirty Fundie Lover!!!! Why would you ever remind me of such a painful hole in my life?!?!?!?! This painful hole is so empty and must be filled immediately!!!! Oh the melodrama!!!! :cry:

[Walking Cat Bed]

I'd have to disagree with that. It's not natural to learn to fight off diseases by being injected with them in some form.

Neither is deodorant, but it's a public service.

[nausicaa]

So when I think about this too much, I get really grossed out. As our economy progressed and people started to break off intospecialization, someone decided to specialize in being the village person who looked into other peoples mouths. Yuck.

(And my family seems to LOVE dentistry. grosses me right out.)

Think about it this way--someone had to (and people still do) choose to specialize in looking at people's rectums. I'll take dentistry TYVM. :hand:

[ShepherdontheRock]

I don't have a dog you dirty Fundie Lover!!!! Why would you ever remind me of such a painful hole in my life?!?!?!?! This painful hole is so empty and must be filled immediately!!!! Oh the melodrama!!!! :cry:

Yeah, what's your problem RosyDaisy!!!!!!!!!!!ELEVENTY!!!!!!!!!!!!

[2xx1xy1JD]

I have been studying Criminal Law for the bar exam in my state, and I do believe that antivaxxers can and should be charged with depraved-heart murder for failing to vax their kids if one can prove that a disease their kid had, for instance, killed an immunocompromised child who can't vaccinate.

The elements of depraved-heart murder are:

1. Defendant commits an act (taking the sick unvaxxed kid in public, maybe?);

2. Even though they know their act creates an unusually high risk of death or serious bodily harm (perhaps not always true, but could work if you knowingly take your sick kid to see a relative with cancer, HIV, etc. or don't segregate the sick child from an unvaccinated baby- it's quite likely that a sick person or baby would die or be disabled from these very serious diseases);

3. Such an act results in a death (and it does for some who catch the disease).

Depraved-heart murder is considered to be committed with malice even though it's not intentional, since defendant knew of the high risk of harm and still did it. In most jurisdictions, it's considered second-degree murder.

I'm not advancing this legal theory as an overall solution, since it would be hard to prove causation and intent to create the risk of death through contact with the sick child. But maybe, if it were possible to apply it as above to the worst anti-vaccine offenders, it would scare the rest into compliance. Depraved-heart murder is usually for something like dropping something heavy from a roof onto a populated street, or shooting a gun without checking to see whether a person is in the way, and thus killing a person. But fundamentally, I don't believe the failure to vaccinate is any different, to a vulnerable person, than not looking before dropping a piano on them.

I don't practice in the US and can't give legal advice on American law.

I do have concerns, though, about using criminal or tort law to go after non-vaxxed kids or their parents.

We don't have the depraved-heart language in Canada, but I assume that it requires doing something exceptionally dangerous and risky. It doesn't apply to doing things that are simply a bit negligent or not wise decisions. If a parent knowingly took a child who clearly had a dangerous contagious disease, and took them to have close contact with somebody whom they knew was seriously immuno-compromised - maybe? That's not how it usually goes, though. Many diseases have an incubation period. With something like chicken pox, for example, you are most contagious BEFORE the spots appear. Chicken pox is potentially quite dangerous for pregnant woman, but most of the time you don't know if someone is in their first trimester.

There are potential problems with stigmatizing people who are sick. It creates paranoia. It leads to discrimination. You may not be old enough to remember how people reacted to AIDS in the 1980s, but it was harsh. I remember hearing people - not bigoted idiots, but otherwise intelligent professionals - say that they wouldn't want to treat someone with AIDS, or shake their hand, or have a gay dentist, or allow their children to go to school with a child who was HIV+. The fear was that bad. I also remember living through the SARS outbreak in Toronto. Now, there was a real public health risk, and as someone married to a doctor and living near 2 hospitals that were actually closed down due to the outbreak, I was very aware of that risk. The panic, though, was completely out of proportion and did nothing to protect anyone. People would avoid Chinatown, even though the disease wasn't spreading there, because the disease originated in China. We had friends from out of town calling us to check if it was safe to visit, saying that they had been warned to avoid travel here. 438 Canadians had SARS - and there were over 4 million people living in the greater Toronto area. The greatest risk was for those in hospitals, and a good chunk of the victims were health care workers. People weren't getting sick by walking down the street near a Chinese person.

Now, the government does have the right to protect the public. I've seen quarantines being used, even where that caused some hardship and real limits on the freedom of those under quarantine, but it's a pretty extreme measure. In the end, though, tough measures like quarantines were needed during the SARS crisis to prevent it from spreading.

Re the whole "natural" argument: I just read a great book by Dan Riskin called "Mother Nature Is Trying to Kill You" http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1814 ... o-kill-you His basic argument is that nature is fascinating - but it is not particularly warm and fuzzy, and natural does not mean good.

[blessalessi]

Yeah, what's your problem RosyDaisy!!!!!!!!!!!ELEVENTY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Enough, people!!!

Or it will be goldfish crackers for dinner, for all of you! :whistle:

[Walking Cat Bed]

Little Miss Bonkers hasn't figured dogs out yet. But she DOES like to hang out in grocery bags and murder (toy) mousies ded and leave them in my bed.

(Roommate's cat will bring in not-ded Outside Toys, which we can usually chase back outside and give a five-minute head start.)

[HarryPotterFan]

Yeah, what's your problem RosyDaisy!!!!!!!!!!!ELEVENTY!!!!!!!!!!!!

CATS ARE THE BEST!!! They know who's boss (they are). It's a sign of superior intelligence. They train their humans.

[HarryPotterFan]

Enough, people!!!

Or it will be goldfish crackers for dinner, for all of you! :whistle:

I actually want goldfish crackers...let's keep arguing!

[VelociRapture]

CATS ARE THE BEST!!! They know who's boss (they are). It's a sign of superior intelligence. They train their humans.

Cats will watch you die and then eat your flesh. A dog will risk their life to save your's. I know this because I read it on the website for, "The Institute of Fudged Facts," which is run by, "The Coalition of I Made That Shit Up!"

[Terrie]

I actually want goldfish crackers...let's keep arguing!

Parmesan are my favorite.

[HarryPotterFan]

Think about it this way--someone had to (and people still do) choose to specialize in looking at people's rectums. I'll take dentistry TYVM. :hand:

I went to the gyno and was just thinking, "who decides to devote their career to looking at vajayjays??"

[Anny Nym]

I know of a woman who had a cat and then the woman died ant then the cat eat her face, true story!!! Every Degreed Medicine Professional will support this claim!!!! And if your Degreed Medicine Professional doesn´t do so, he is probably bought by Big Cat industry already !!!!!!!!

[VelociRapture]

I went to the gyno and was just thinking, "who decides to devote their career to looking at vajayjays??"

Did you know Veterinarian students are required to put their hands in places that they should never be placed? My dad's best friend has a niece who works as a Vet and she has all sorts of gross and amazing stories to share. :lol: