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CA Vaccine Law - Pt 2 - Now W/arguments about everything!


happy atheist

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I don't know what you're talking about with the hand washing. I said that was the first line of defense to protect against spreading disease.

And no, I didn't say that! Gee, don't you people read? I was responding to the poster who said that the hygiene hypothesis may explain the rise in AI conditions. The hygiene hypothesis states that we may be seeing more AI conditions because we are too clean and healthy and our immune system gets bored and starts attacking self. I replied saying that maybe we need to get some of these common childhood diseases to prevent chronic illnesses later. Does that make sense? A bout with measles or chronic asthma?

Here is an idea on how to clear things up: clearly state what you do and don't believe.

For instance:

- I believe in vaccinations for people not medically incapable of receiving them.

- I don't believe in allowing vaccination exemptions for personal beliefs or religious beliefs.

- I believe that medical professionals and teachers have an obligation to get vaccinated for the Flu unless they have a medical exemption.

- I don't believe that mandating vaccinations correlates in any way to Hitler and concentration camps.

- I believe that hand washing and good hygiene can help prevent sickness.

- I don't believe hand washing and good hygiene alone can prevent sickness, especially major diseases.

- I do believe that people have a right to make medical decisions for themselves.

- I don't believe they have that right when it could have a negative impact on other people; your right to choose does not outweigh other people's right to stay healthy or stay alive.

Seriously, copy the above and rewrite exactly what you feel in the simplest way you can. Maybe then we will all have a better idea of what you're trying to say.

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And I would feel terrible if my kid or I got a kid with cancer sick with any disease. And we are vaccinated. But some people don't seroconvert and thus aren't protected and can spread disease even though they are fully vaccinated. Wash wash wash your hands, don't touch your eyes, nose, or mouth without washing your hands first. Cough and sneeze into your elbow. Easy ways to prevent passing along germs.

I'm going to a peanut/ nut allergie place right now.

Before lots of places had nut free classes ect

A girl in my brothers kindergarten class was allergic to peanuts tree nuts and seeds! The mother spoke to us all at back to school night.

It's a place of education. Educate people.

I think educating the parents of Marin / where ever should come first.

I spoke about how Sweden has a 95% rate and no laws mandating in. I found they ran educational campaigns in the 80s and probably just educate their citizens.

I was told.that wouldn't work as its the collage educated people who don't vaxx.

I mentioned last/ this thread that

1. All the kids at my preschool are vaxxed

Even the hippie family's.

2. They are all rich

( do not know education levels of parents)

I think educating people will work. Possibly I'm to optimistic.

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I'm going to a peanut/ nut allergie place right now.

Somehow I knew it would come to this. :shock:

I'll go get my shield, sword, and titanium armor.

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Somehow I knew it would come to this. :shock:

I'll go get my shield, sword, and titanium armor.

giphy.gif
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If the kid is truly immune compromised again a cold could do it.

And using the logic I was was given last thread it would be OK to make him stay home for a home based education if he's rich.

( ov. I don't agree- but that was someone argument and its still bothering me)

And fundie farmer I'm not sure what u mean by your last line because the way it is now they can still run into people without vaccines- just not at school

Okayyy they spend most of their day at school. That's true. But what about preschool?

Also the law doesn't just include vaccines for things that regularly kill people.

The flu laws not in the kid one but it is in the teacher and nursing ones.

Raising insurance may be beneficial for one group of individuals: the insurance companies. If you were trying to suggest a proactive solution to help prevent people from running around with diseases it was a good general idea, but your suggestion isn't the solution. Since it's been said the wealthy are the largest group choosing not to vaccinate, this wouldn't be a stretch for them. A higher insurance premium as a result of not vaccinating is basically saying they can buy their way out of vaccinations by simply paying their insurance companies more. They still walk around with diseases, and the immunocompromised still lose out.

Holy fuck, peanuts.

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I've avoided parts 1 and 2 of this mega-threat until now, but the auto-immune stuff caught my attention.

I've spoken to our resident Degreed Medical Professional (aka my husband), since auto-immune conditions are his sub-specialty.

According to him and the various peer-reviewed journal articles he's found:

1. Nobody has identified one specific cause of all AI conditions.

2. There could be a genetic element to some conditions, which tend to run in families. Chrohn's Disease, for example, has a higher frequency in Ashkenazi populations.

3. Stress can cause an existing condition to flare. He's seen numerous examples with patients.

4. It's possible that there are environmental triggers. He's seen the odd case where symptoms flared up in one location, but rarely showed in another.

5. Some patients have tried going 100% gluten-free, and some in this group had better-than-expected results, to the point that they were largely free of meds for rheumatoid arthritis. He wouldn't advise anyone to quit meds cold turkey, but feels that if someone is willing to try it, there is little risk in cutting out gluten for a few months and seeing what happens.

6. There is some evidence that an imbalance of omega 3 to omega 6 fats contributes to inflammation. Eating more salmon and walnuts and less processed foods made with vegetable oils is recommended.

7. There is some evidence that basil can help with rheumatoid arthritis.

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I'm aware of the hygiene hypothesis and to me it seems that being too "clean" and healthy can be a factor. So WHY are we giving more vaccines instead of letting kids fight off some of these childhood illnesses instead of ending up with lifelong diseases like asthma, Type 1 diabetes, UC, MS? Kids die from asthma! Diabetics can have many chronic issues and shorter life spans, not to mention the insulin requirements and BG monitoring DAILY.

I'd not heard of helminthic therapy. Something just doesn't seem right about infecting one with worms. Lol

I just can't think that's ok. Maybe for the treatment of disease but not as a cause. Idk it is intriguing and pretty interesting.

What this tells me is that you have no fucking clue how vaccines work.

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I don't know what you're talking about with the hand washing. I said that was the first line of defense to protect against spreading disease.

And no, I didn't say that! Gee, don't you people read? I was responding to the poster who said that the hygiene hypothesis may explain the rise in AI conditions. The hygiene hypothesis states that we may be seeing more AI conditions because we are too clean and healthy and our immune system gets bored and starts attacking self. I replied saying that maybe we need to get some of these common childhood diseases to prevent chronic illnesses later. Does that make sense? A bout with measles or chronic asthma?

Also, that's not what the Hygiene Hypothesis says. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis

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Happy Atheist's intro to this thread promised a clusterfuck and it definitely delivered. Great reading as I have been waiting on the Mister to return after our next-door neighbor kidnapped him to help move furniture.

Also, my dog is vaccinated against rabies and knows what the words taco, pizza, and lasagna mean. Say any of them and he gets super excited.

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Well that's what the hygiene hypothesis seems to state. That's what I was replying to.

Oh for crying out loud. I don't know why everyone here doesn't just open up their own research lab since apparently science is so trivially easy to both understand and execute.

The hygiene hypothesis doesn't mean you should go out and roll your kid in pig manure and have every stranger in the mall sneeze on him.

First of all, it's a hypothesis.

Secondly, even if certain challenges are beneficial to the immune system, others are not. You keep mentioning asthma and suggesting we let kids get infected with random diseases to prevent it. You know what is thought to be one of the major causes of asthma? Respiratory infections during the first year of life.

Based upon my reading, I think it's quite likely that exposure to certain microorganisms and allergens may be protective against allergies and asthma. It doesn't follow that every microorganism/allergen is beneficial. So we need to do the research to find out which ones are, rather than randomly exposing kids to various diseases because it's "natural".

In the previous thread C-section vs vaginal birth was mentioned as altering infants' gut bacteria. The significance of this is not yet known. If we do eventually discover particular bacteria are beneficial for newborns, we aren't going to be preventing women from getting C-sections, we'll just be inoculating the infants with bacterial culture at birth.

My eventual goal for humanity is to have us grow babies in vats. No more pregnancy. It will be a brave new world. :dance:

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Oh for crying out loud. I don't know why everyone here doesn't just open up their own research lab since apparently science is so trivially easy to both understand and execute.

The hygiene hypothesis doesn't mean you should go out and roll your kid in pig manure and have every stranger in the mall sneeze on him.

First of all, it's a hypothesis.

Secondly, even if certain challenges are beneficial to the immune system, others are not. You keep mentioning asthma and suggesting we let kids get infected with random diseases to prevent it. You know what is thought to be one of the major causes of asthma? Respiratory infections during the first year of life.

Based upon my reading, I think it's quite likely that exposure to certain microorganisms and allergens may be protective against allergies and asthma. It doesn't follow that every microorganism/allergen is beneficial. So we need to do the research to find out which ones are, rather than randomly exposing kids to various diseases because it's "natural".

In the previous thread C-section vs vaginal birth was mentioned as altering infants' gut bacteria. The significance of this is not yet known. If we do eventually discover particular bacteria are beneficial for newborns, we aren't going to be preventing women from getting C-sections, we'll just be inoculating the infants with bacterial culture at birth.

My eventual goal for humanity is to have us grow babies in vats. No more pregnancy. It will be a brave new world. :dance:

The study was linked allergies

It was better to have stomach bacteria that looked the same as moms.

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Raising insurance may be beneficial for one group of individuals: the insurance companies. If you were trying to suggest a proactive solution to help prevent people from running around with diseases it was a good general idea, but your suggestion isn't the solution. Since it's been said the wealthy are the largest group choosing not to vaccinate, this wouldn't be a stretch for them. A higher insurance premium as a result of not vaccinating is basically saying they can buy their way out of vaccinations by simply paying their insurance companies more. They still walk around with diseases, and the immunocompromised still lose out.

Holy fuck, peanuts.

Yeah that and docs not seeing them were the only solutions thought of..... But we were asking for people to suggest other options.

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Also a random but inportant fact- children I California are not required to attend kindergarten. Just first +

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The way you stated it sounded like you truly believe that letting kids have preventable diseases like the measles causes diabetes and MS. Just confirming, this is NOT what you believe?

No, that is not what I believe and that's the opposite of what the hygiene hypothesis implicates.

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No, that is not what I believe and that's the opposite of what the hygiene hypothesis implicates.

Good grief, Snarkylark.

Are you still here arguing nonsense? I had hoped we were rid of you. :mouse-shock:

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Listen, I did not bring up the hygiene hypothesis, agree with, or disagree with it! SOMEONE else asked me what I thought of it as a possible cause of AI issues. I responded that it seems to say that hygiene and lack of disease may cause one's immune system to get bored and attack itself. To which I responded that IF that's the case, maybe we shouldn't be giving SO many vaccinations IF the cause of AI diseases is attributed to being too "clean" and not getting sick. It's a critical thinking kind of question. That's all. It's a hypothetical question. MOST childhood illnesses are well treated and fought off by healthy children and if it prevents them from developing lifelong AI diseases like asthma and diabetes, maybe getting sick would be worth it. We have much better medical care,sanitation, and hygiene practices than we did when some of those diseases killed a bunch of kids. I was just responding to the question, not saying that I believe it.

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I've avoided parts 1 and 2 of this mega-threat until now, but the auto-immune stuff caught my attention.

I've spoken to our resident Degreed Medical Professional (aka my husband), since auto-immune conditions are his sub-specialty.

According to him and the various peer-reviewed journal articles he's found:

1. Nobody has identified one specific cause of all AI conditions.

2. There could be a genetic element to some conditions, which tend to run in families. Chrohn's Disease, for example, has a higher frequency in Ashkenazi populations.

3. Stress can cause an existing condition to flare. He's seen numerous examples with patients.

4. It's possible that there are environmental triggers. He's seen the odd case where symptoms flared up in one location, but rarely showed in another.

5. Some patients have tried going 100% gluten-free, and some in this group had better-than-expected results, to the point that they were largely free of meds for rheumatoid arthritis. He wouldn't advise anyone to quit meds cold turkey, but feels that if someone is willing to try it, there is little risk in cutting out gluten for a few months and seeing what happens.

6. There is some evidence that an imbalance of omega 3 to omega 6 fats contributes to inflammation. Eating more salmon and walnuts and less processed foods made with vegetable oils is recommended.

7. There is some evidence that basil can help with rheumatoid arthritis.

Agreed. The basis of AI conditions is inflammation. There are many different causes of inflammation and I'd guess it's different with each person. It could be food, infections, stress, dairy, and many more. Each person is different. Id like to see a lot more research in this area since AI conditions are becoming Sooooo common.

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Here is an idea on how to clear things up: clearly state what you do and don't believe.

For instance:

- I believe in vaccinations for people not medically incapable of receiving them.

Yes, but not mandatory!

- I don't believe in allowing vaccination exemptions for personal beliefs or religious beliefs.

No! I think one should be able to object to a Medical procedure

- I believe that medical professionals and teachers have an obligation to get vaccinated for the Flu unless they have a medical exemption.

No! There are many many doctors and nurses who do not believe the flu vaccine is safe or effective and only take it because they are forced to to save their job. I have a NAMV magnet on my car. A respiratory therapist wanted to know where I got it because he agrees. And he's a RT so he comes across many patients with problems that could get very sick from the flu. But we know how to prevent spreading the flu! He also was forced to take the vaccine or lose his job.

- I don't believe that mandating vaccinations correlates in any way to Hitler and concentration camps.

No, I don't.

- I believe that hand washing and good hygiene can help prevent sickness.

Absofrickenlutely

- I don't believe hand washing and good hygiene alone can prevent sickness, especially major diseases.

Most of the time, yes. But not always, as in the case of measles, TB, which are airborne.

- I do believe that people have a right to make medical decisions for themselves.

Yes

- I don't believe they have that right when it could have a negative impact on other people; your right to choose does not outweigh other people's right to stay healthy or stay alive.

I disagree with this on the fine line of making vaccines mandatory. I still believe we should have the right to choose. If we flip it around then people may get sick from mandatory vaccinations just to protect others. It does happen. I don't think that's fair, either.

Answers above

As I've stated before and as Bekah said too, I think education is key here. I think making vaccinations mandatory "could" have the opposite effect.

The universe sucks sometimes. Life isn't fair. Bad horrible things happen. Babies die. Kids get cancer. Life is never going to be fair for everyone. Ever. Again, I really think we need to be educating people. We addressed this in the last thread and I really think it's the only way real progress is going to be made.

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Listen, I did not bring up the hygiene hypothesis, agree with, or disagree with it! SOMEONE else asked me what I thought of it as a possible cause of AI issues. I responded that it seems to say that hygiene and lack of disease may cause one's immune system to get bored and attack itself. To which I responded that IF that's the case, maybe we shouldn't be giving SO many vaccinations IF the cause of AI diseases is attributed to being too "clean" and not getting sick. It's a critical thinking kind of question. That's all. It's a hypothetical question. MOST childhood illnesses are well treated and fought off by healthy children and if it prevents them from developing lifelong AI diseases like asthma and diabetes, maybe getting sick would be worth it. We have much better medical care,sanitation, and hygiene practices than we did when some of those diseases killed a bunch of kids. I was just responding to the question, not saying that I believe it.

OMG this thread and it's predescssor has kept me entertained for days.

Critical thinking question?? Really?? :nenner:

So hypothetically... you think that getting measles, mumps, polio, tb as a child might prevent asthma and diabetes? :disgust:

A childhood illness is a cold, an ear infection and the like. Measles, mumps, TV, etc are NOT childhood illness, at least not anymore, and why the fuck would we want to change that.

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Yeah that and docs not seeing them were the only solutions thought of..... But we were asking for people to suggest other options.

Physicians refusing to treat the unvaccinated is not a theoretical solution- it is happening now as care teams refuse to endanger themselves, or their other patients. That is because most care teams, unlike many of our unvaccinated counterparts, believe there is a real and significant danger and liability in not vaccinating.

Education is a great idea in theory, but as we can see in this thread, isn't going to be easy or effective. The Strong Pro Vaxxers (myself included) have been throwing out statistic after statistic as to why vaxxing is critical, and yet others refuse to believe it. The I'm Good With Vaxxing Just Not Mandatory keep throwing out loosely substantiated sources that are met only with disdain. And then there are some who fall under the I'm Saying Whatever I Feel Like Because I Just Feel Like Speaking camp which results in things like random and unrelated posts ranting about half-assed ideas that are totally confusing. All three have strong ideas here, and will have the same strong ideas about what should be taught in an educational program about vaccines, not to mention that's one area that Big Pharma would undoubtedly get involved. So in the education model, who gets to determine the curriculum? Who gets to determine fact? If it's the government, there's a pretty solid chance they're going to put out the same pro-vax statistics that caused them to make vaxxing mandatory in the first place- not the fluffy, "I don't want a shot because I sneeze afterward" embellishment we've seen from some of the sources here. So really, if we're going to propose education, then who do we say is in charge of that?

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OMG this thread and it's predescssor has kept me entertained for days.

Critical thinking question?? Really?? :nenner:

So hypothetically... you think that getting measles, mumps, polio, tb as a child might prevent asthma and diabetes? :disgust:

A childhood illness is a cold, an ear infection and the like. Measles, mumps, TV, etc are NOT childhood illness, at least not anymore, and why the fuck would we want to change that.

No, again! That is a question brought up by the hygiene hypothesis. I don't think there's enough evidence to support that.

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FundieFarmer, we kind of discussed the education piece in the last thread. I don't think the staunch antivaxxers are going to believe much put out by the government or the vaccine companies. There's distrust there and that's why I don't think mandating is going to solve the problem or get to the root of the issue. Independent research from parties not affiliated with the government or the drug companies themselves is what it will take. I don't know how that's possible. I really don't. And I don't think the antivaxxers really think about the ramifications that declining vaccines can have on other people.

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