CA Vaccine Law - Pt 2 - Now W/arguments about everything!

[morfydd]

Non-socialist medicine in the US was no better than Germany. Even when we moved away from forced sterilization of "undesirables," we still heavily pushed (and in some quarters STILL push) "positive eugenics" where the "right" type of people are encouraged to breed over the "wrong" type of people. Just look at all the lamenting of how educated, well-to-do white people tend to have fewer kids than blue collar brown people if you think that's a complete relic of the past.

Yes, exactly.

Social Darwinism as a formal academic train of thought became significantly less socially acceptable after WWII when people saw what it could turn into, but less-coherent, unconscious variants on it are ubiquitous. (e.g. "The Marching Morons" or "Idiocracy" in pop culture, and as you mentioned it's everywhere in political culture)

I do think it's an interesting question as to whether socialized medicine could be dangerous as a tool of the government, but by the time you get to the Nazis EVERYTHING has been turned to a tool of the government. :?

I have lots of other sophomore-level political/history-of-science discussions I'd love to have. However, there's been way too much thread drift already! :lol:

[Snarkylark]

It's perfectly clear what snarkylark thought it would add to the discussion: fear and misinformation.

I bet you a donut that she comes back and claims that she didn't actually read this article, and never said that it was a reliable source.

No, I did read it and iirc, posted that that is what I thought the Hitler comparison might be referring to. The guy who wrote the piece works at some museum relating to that time period. I don't know anything about the group that runs the site.

[Snarkylark]

DP met a 38 year old woman today through his job (health services) with an acquired brain injury from a dose of measles aged 10. Her mother told him how her perfect bubbly child almost died and has spent the rest of her life with profound intellectual disability.

That is all.

From the measles or the vaccine? You say "dose" so it's unclear to me.

[HarryPotterFan]

No, maybe that's how YOU interpreted it because you disagree with me and are trying to find fault with everything I say. Face it, there are people who still believe they should have rights when it comes to their healthcare. You have a right to your opinion, I have a right to mine.

I repeat, vaccinations are not just about YOUR health, it's about the entire community at large.

Also, vaccination guns sound awesome.

[HarryPotterFan]

SnarkyLark,

You also never answered my comments about the hygiene hypothesis and Autoimmune disorders, and current studies looking at Helminthic therapy. If you can't follow the conversation here, why the hell should we give any credit to your commentary on medical and/or legal issues, both of which are extremely complex fields?

Can you imagine if doctors refused to wash their hands or wear gloves because that tramples on their individual freedom?

[HarryPotterFan]

Well, your cat is WEIRD.

(My kitten -- the one you see there? Has been trying to convince me and my roommate that she CAN SO read. She's a book thief.)

My cats are immunized and they know how to open doors and are able to imitate humans. Clearly your cat is an outlier. Correlation does not equal causation! This is how we got into the whole anti-vax mess in the first place :-p

[Snarkylark]

Are you joking? She's talking about philosophy not some random greek guy. Or better some greek guy called Socrates or Platon.

Jokes aside. Here to work in helthcare you have to take courses on professional ethics, we call those deontologia professionale, I think in the USA you also have them. Professional ethics include some basic philosophy in particular ethics so maybe you should know about "the Greeks" and Rousseau, and maybe you can use this knowledge to answer to those who question your professional ethics in relation to your job and your opinions.

I don't recall much discussion in nursing school on ethics as it relates to vaccines. Lots of end of life issues, quality of life, etc. My program was an ADN program through technical college. Maybe some of the 4 year programs delve more into the philosophical side of it but our program was very hands on and science based. BSN programs at traditional 4 year colleges may spend more time in those aspects of healthcare and the history of it, as they have more time to do that. 2 year programs tend to prepare you for NCLEX and caring for patients. I feel like I took an ethics class in my RN to BSN program but still don't remember those kinds of philosophical discussions and history. I think our assignment was on Tay-Sachs and an adult patient who wanted to live alone but was not able to.

Vaccines are not the only way to prevent disease. If that was the case we'd all be sick all the time with what we're exposed to on a daily basis. Hand washing is the first line of defense to protect us and our patients, together with gloves and isolation precautions. Getting plenty of rest, vitamin C and D, fresh air, and exercise all help to support a healthy immune system. If I have a runny nose or something minor I will wear a mask if it's necessary to protect my patients. I have not missed work in the 4 years I've been a nurse or the years I spent as a CNA before that. There are plenty of contagious diseases that we can catch that can't be vaccinated for.

Measles is the one that we can't protect easily against because it's air borne. I've been vaccinated against measles and I think most healthcare workers have been as children too. And I think most healthcare workers see the benefit in vaccines as a whole, and especially the measles vaccine, to protect our patients and ourselves.

[EmmieJ]

If the children were saying I don't want shots I would keep them out of school I guess. But its not the kids choice. It's the parents.

But I can't punish ( and taking away school is punishment) a child for something they didn't have a say in.

I realize the law has passed but I really think they should have thought of something else. This is so unfair to the kids.

What? I've never heard of any child saying they want a shot, and frankly I'm not crazy about getting vaccinations either. I also don't like getting cavities filled, but I have it done so I don't eventually lose that tooth. I don't like paying for my car insurance, especially now that my son is on the policy, but I do it. My son doesn't like taking out the trash or cleaning his room, but if he doesn't do his chores, he doesn't get his allowance.

I cannot make heads nor tails out of your post.

[EmmieJ]

What started out as a discussion of California's new law eliminating all non-medical vaccine exemptions for any child enrolled in public school devolved rather rapidly.

Come for the conversation about preventing deaths from exciting retro diseases, stay for the assertions of opinion as fact, the quoting of unreliable sources, the comparisons to Hitler (!), and the arguments about everything from bakers refusing to make cakes for lesbian marriages to paleo diets!

It's a giant clusterfuck, folks. Enjoy.

Part 1: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=26463

I am disappointed that I missed out on the arguments over paleo diets, but not enough to go to the first thread and search through it. :lol:

[nausicaa]

Can you imagine if doctors refused to wash their hands or wear gloves because that tramples on their individual freedom?

Actually, this has come up before, with Muslim female medical students who kept a strict hijab that meant they had to be covered to the edges of their wrists. They felt it was asking them to violate their religion to be forced to roll up their sleeves to the elbows in public in order to thoroughly wash their hands and forearms before and after procedures. They were overruled--presumably on the grounds that one's religious freedoms stop where the safety of another person begins.

(On reflection, I cannot remember if this case was in the UK or the US. But I found it interesting nevertheless.)

[EmmieJ]

That actually sounds right, lol! This is where my info came from:

almond

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cus ... antity=2.5

wheat flour

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cer ... sta/9257/2

I'm diabetic, so carbs matter a LOT, fat, hardly at all. Because of almond meal, brownies, waffles, choc chip cookies, pancakes, biscuits, and crackers are back in my life (still can't make bread that'll hold together). If anyone comes up with a way to make cauliflower brownies, I'd go there. But till then. . . .

I'm diabetic also (diagnosed in Feb) so carbs are a huge deal to me now too. I found a simple almond meal/flaxseed bread that cooks up in 90 seconds in the microwave and it's my new favorite. It's still very strange to me to not give a damn about the fat content of what I eat, and yet I'm losing weight.

[Snarkylark]

SnarkyLark,

You also never answered my comments about the hygiene hypothesis and Autoimmune disorders, and current studies looking at Helminthic therapy. If you can't follow the conversation here, why the hell should we give any credit to your commentary on medical and/or legal issues, both of which are extremely complex fields?

I'm aware of the hygiene hypothesis and to me it seems that being too "clean" and healthy can be a factor. So WHY are we giving more vaccines instead of letting kids fight off some of these childhood illnesses instead of ending up with lifelong diseases like asthma, Type 1 diabetes, UC, MS? Kids die from asthma! Diabetics can have many chronic issues and shorter life spans, not to mention the insulin requirements and BG monitoring DAILY.

I'd not heard of helminthic therapy. Something just doesn't seem right about infecting one with worms. Lol

I just can't think that's ok. Maybe for the treatment of disease but not as a cause. Idk it is intriguing and pretty interesting.

[Firiel]

Can you imagine if doctors refused to wash their hands or wear gloves because that tramples on their individual freedom?

This kind of happened, and many women died who wouldn't have died otherwise. But doctors didn't like the implication that they could be spreading disease to their patients: http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shot ... en-s-lives

[HarryPotterFan]

Actually, this has come up before, with Muslim female medical students who kept a strict hijab that meant they had to be covered to the edges of their wrists. They felt it was asking them to violate their religion to be forced to roll up their sleeves to the elbows in public in order to thoroughly wash their hands and forearms before and after procedures. They were overruled--presumably on the grounds that one's religious freedoms stop where the safety of another person begins.

(On reflection, I cannot remember if this case was in the UK or the US. But I found it interesting nevertheless.)

Huh, never heard about that case. On the opposite end, a friend of mine who is very religious (no touching the opposite sex) says that health and others come first. She's studying to become an occupational therapist and said because she is doing something to help others it does not violate any religious laws.

[Snarkylark]

Actually, this has come up before, with Muslim female medical students who kept a strict hijab that meant they had to be covered to the edges of their wrists. They felt it was asking them to violate their religion to be forced to roll up their sleeves to the elbows in public in order to thoroughly wash their hands and forearms before and after procedures. They were overruled--presumably on the grounds that one's religious freedoms stop where the safety of another person begins.

(On reflection, I cannot remember if this case was in the UK or the US. But I found it interesting nevertheless.)

Washing hands is not invasive or unnatural. I don't think it's a good comparison. Have you seen the studies on how many germs are on a Physician's lab coat? :x

[OkToBeTakei]

From the measles or the vaccine? You say "dose" so it's unclear to me.

As in like a 'dose' of the clap.

I can't take this thread seriously anymore but the chance to translate Irish .... I love!

Glad to see Nurse Snarky demonstrating her empathy about a child and turning it into an OMG vax thing.... Twat. Is that clear? Twat.

[HarryPotterFan]

This kind of happened, and many women died who wouldn't have died otherwise. But doctors didn't like the implication that they could be spreading disease to their patients: http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shot ... en-s-lives

Yeah, I know that used to happen all the time. But it's much harder to imagine happening now with our knowledge about germ theory and protocols for ensuring sanitary environments.

[EmmieJ]

Quit fearmongering, you asshole.

"They're coming after adults now!!!1!!1" makes it sound like they're hunting people down in the streets with vaccination guns, and giving them experimental medical treatments.

I've worked in day care and I had to be up to date on my vaccinations. I was also required to get a TB test. Big fucking whoop. I have no problem at all saying that people who work closely with vulnerable populations need to be vaccinated.

Do the world a favor and get the fuck out of healthcare.

Amen! And FWIW, I would not want to have my toddler in any daycare where the employees refused to be current on their vaccinations. That's my kid you're taking care of, so please be up to date on your vaccines, unless you have medical reasons why you cannot be vaccinated. (And if that's the case, why are you spending every day in the presence of these little germ carriers???)

[Firiel]

Washing hands is not invasive or unnatural. I don't think it's a good comparison. Have you seen the studies on how many germs are on a Physician's lab coat? :x

Oh yeah, the time they discovered fossilized soap and a fossilized sink in the back of the Neanderthal's cave!

Totally natural!

[HarryPotterFan]

I'm aware of the hygiene hypothesis and to me it seems that being too "clean" and healthy can be a factor. So WHY are we giving more vaccines instead of letting kids fight off some of these childhood illnesses instead of ending up with lifelong diseases like asthma, Type 1 diabetes, UC, MS? Kids die from asthma! Diabetics can have many chronic issues and shorter life spans, not to mention the insulin requirements and BG monitoring DAILY.

I'd not heard of helminthic therapy. Something just doesn't seem right about infecting one with worms. Lol

I just can't think that's ok. Maybe for the treatment of disease but not as a cause. Idk it is intriguing and pretty interesting.

It is a fair point if we just let these kids get diseases which can kill them then they won't have to worry about chronic illness...because they'll be dead.

[nelliebelle1197]

I do understand the public health side of it, but I still don't agree with forcing vaccinations. I'm not sure what questions you're asking. I honestly don't remember seeing posts about Greeks, etc. but the thread moved fast and I must have missed it. I don't know anything about that. I'm not going to pretend that I do.

But do you understand the difference between the common good and individual rights and how the latter is sacrificed when the former is at stake?

[Snarkylark]

You can't say that every kid who gets measles, chicken pox, the flu, will die! That's hardly even the case at all and you know it.

[EmmieJ]

I'm aware of the hygiene hypothesis and to me it seems that being too "clean" and healthy can be a factor. So WHY are we giving more vaccines instead of letting kids fight off some of these childhood illnesses instead of ending up with lifelong diseases like asthma, Type 1 diabetes, UC, MS? Kids die from asthma! Diabetics can have many chronic issues and shorter life spans, not to mention the insulin requirements and BG monitoring DAILY.

I'd not heard of helminthic therapy. Something just doesn't seem right about infecting one with worms. Lol

I just can't think that's ok. Maybe for the treatment of disease but not as a cause. Idk it is intriguing and pretty interesting.

Are you saying that you believe that the rise in vaccinations has caused people to have asthma, Type 1 diabetes, or multiple sclerosis? And if so, can you explain how you arrive at this belief. Do you have any scientific evidence to support your theory? Because it sounds like complete bull shit to me but I don't want to be too hasty.

ETA: As a Type 2 diabetic, I do monitor my BG levels daily, several times per day. It's not really that big a deal. I have a handy little monitor and contraption that pricks my finger. Takes me less than a minute, doesn't hurt, and helps me know whether I'm eating to my meter, or not. Being up to date on my vaccinations has no bearing on my diabetes, one way or the other.

[HarryPotterFan]

You can't say that every kid who gets measles, chicken pox, the flu, will die! That's hardly even the case at all and you know it.

Are we ignoring all the other diseases which people are immunized against? And just telling people who can't be vaccinated due to medical reasons, "too bad for you, I guess you get to die now?" Also if you want to pose an unscientifically based argument that these diseases can prevent chronic illness :cray-cray: you can't ignore the chronic illness and/or disabilities these diseases can cause.

[Snarkylark]

But do you understand the difference between the common good and individual rights and how the latter is sacrificed when the former is at stake?

I think MOST people understand the reasons for vaccination and are doing it for their kids. I don't think they should be mandatory, especially when there are still risks involved. Maybe small, but still there.