No jail and supended fine for Alaska hot sauce mom.

[Beeks]

I certainly do make parenting errors. She makes lots of others too, but they are not relevant to this conversation so I didn't bring them up. You are certainly entitled to think I'm lame. But I didn't misrepresent you calling me silly and arrogant.

Right, I do think what you SAID, which was that you don't respect ANYthing the woman says based on a drop of hot sauce, is silly and arrogant. You didn't say it was because of x, y and z, you said it was about the hot sauce and only the hot sauce. I think that was an extreme opinion and that all parents (including my own, who are awesome in general) make mistake. Even big mistakes. It doesn't mean we should just right them off completely.

It relates to the Dr. Phil mom because I did think that she was reaching out for help (I'm re-thinking that now that people have mentioned she might have just been trying to get on TV). IF she was reaching out for help and realized what she was doing was wrong but didn't know another way, I think the best thing to do would be to provide intensive counseling and parenting classes, rather than toss the woman in jail and write her off. As stupid as it seems, some people truly do not know how to parent effectively without causing their children pain. Some of them are willing to learn other methods, and I think that should be supported.

That's all.

[Effie]

I'm very upset now. :x

What does it have to take for a harmful act to be considered abuse (over there)? How far does a parent have to go? I think the answer is: too far.

[Kitty]

Lisa Whelchel, former star of "Facts of Life" needs to be charged for the hot sauce thing. She cites it as "useful" in her creative correction book. FYI her hubby is a pastor and she homeschools.

Charged? It's a harmless punishment when not taken overboard.

It's an absolutely stupid punishment, especially in families that already regularly eat spicy food, and just shouldn't be used. Because it's that stupid.

It's bullshit to make a child ingest anything against their will, but to me putting a drop or two of hot sauce in a child's mouth is like making them eat foods they don't like. OTOH, a mouthful of it would be intensely painful, especially for a 7 year old.

[Kitty]

The doctor Phil mom doesn't belong in jail.. but parenting classes and monitoring, sure. A mouthful of Tabasco is shitty. A cold shower sucks. but I am not sure either one should land you in jail.

Cold showers suck when you're in North Carolina and a hurricane has knocked out power for a week.

There's a reason cold showers are considered a form of TORTURE, and it must be absolute hell in Alaska when your only crime was lying to get out of trouble.

[Maggie Mae]

Cold showers suck when you're in North Carolina and a hurricane has knocked out power for a week.

There's a reason cold showers are considered a form of TORTURE, and it must be absolute hell in Alaska when your only crime was lying to get out of trouble.

What does the fact that the crime occurred in Alaska have to do with anything?

[Austin]

Just guessing, but I think the point would be that if being forced to take a cold shower in North Carolina is bad, where it tends to be warm/hot, it may be even more distressing to be forced to take one in Alaska, where it's cooler/cold.

[NurseNell]

I don't want to defend an abuser, but it did seem like that woman was overwhelmed and truly wanted to change. I didn't watch the entire episode, but from what I saw she seemed to be asking for help more than defending her actions. I really REALLY hope that she has gotten some major counseling (actually that the entire family is going through

I saw the Dr. Phil episode and was appalled. Then I read that she had tried more than a year earlier to get on Dr. Phil to get help. She wasn't using hot sauce, cold showers, or physical abuse then. She was screaming a lot and was at her wit's end. This boy was adopted at age 5 out of Russia. These are not easy kids for anyone to parent and too often adoptive parents are told all they need is love. Not true. Most are reactive attachment disordered and have some degree of damage from prenatal alcohol. When she didn't get on Dr. Phil and things weren't getting any better at home she had her daughter tape her doing the hot sauce and cold shower to get Dr. Phil's attention.Somehow that makes what she did worse in my eyes.

I think the agency handling this adoption is partly to blame. They place these kids without sharing how really hard it is and then they aren't there with any resources for these parents and kids.

Nell

[NurseNell]

Cold showers suck when you're in North Carolina and a hurricane has knocked out power for a week.

Then don't travel to the 3rd world. Cold showers are the norm in much of Colombia where I visit, and in El Salvador where I worked once. We are spoiled here in the U.S. That doesn't excuse throwing a kid in a cold shower as a form of discipline.

Nell

[DistantStar]

Just guessing, but I think the point would be that if being forced to take a cold shower in North Carolina is bad, where it tends to be warm/hot, it may be even more distressing to be forced to take one in Alaska, where it's cooler/cold.

That came up in a previous thread, and yes, the water in Alaska must be damn cold. As I said, I am on a well in Idaho. The water is awesome, but is very very cold and a cold shower would most definitely be abusive and tortuous. It can't be any warmer in Alaska. Poor kid.

[Austin]

Then don't travel to the 3rd world. Cold showers are the norm in much of Colombia where I visit, and in El Salvador where I worked once. We are spoiled here in the U.S. That doesn't excuse throwing a kid in a cold shower as a form of discipline.

Nell

Uh, I don't really think that's what kitty was trying to say. . . kitty? Come back. . .

[Guest Anonymous]

this really aggravates me.

I've heard of kids being taken from their parents on trumped up charges of abuse due to the da or whomever looking for abuse when there isn't any, and this lady gets to keep the kid?

Gobsmacked.

(Fwiw, hot sauce would be the dumbest punishment for my kid. At 6 months he stuck his fist into my nuclear red hot thai curry and crammed it into his mouth and then demanded more! He eats jalapenos off the plant in the yard.....I could go on....)

[Beeks]

this really aggravates me.

I've heard of kids being taken from their parents on trumped up charges of abuse due to the da or whomever looking for abuse when there isn't any, and this lady gets to keep the kid?

Gobsmacked.

(Fwiw, hot sauce would be the dumbest punishment for my kid. At 6 months he stuck his fist into my nuclear red hot thai curry and crammed it into his mouth and then demanded more! He eats jalapenos off the plant in the yard.....I could go on....)

Haha! I always think that about my 2yr old with soap. He is always trying to eat the bubbles in his bath or get soap in his mouth when we scrub him down. Soap in the mouth would be a treat for that kid.

[FlorenceHamilton]

I think we need to look at the bigger picture here, which is which sucky solution is best for the child. And all choices for this poor child are bad. He already suffers attachment disorder. He has been moved from his home land to Alaska (poor kid). He has been ripped from everything that is familiar more than one time in his little life. He as a twin brother, which is a bit of good fortune for him.

The adoptive mother is clearly f-ed up. However, she is the mother he has in the home he is in. Ripping him out of this envoronment to be stuck with other people to whom he cannot attach does not seem to be the best solution here. I still think that heavily supervised maintenence in his most familiar environment is best for the boy. I would consider hot saucing and cold showering mom whenever she deviates from the parenting plan she is to follow.

[Austin]

I would consider hot saucing and cold showering mom whenever she deviates from the parenting plan she is to follow.

I could live with that.

[Maggie Mae]

That came up in a previous thread, and yes, the water in Alaska must be damn cold. As I said, I am on a well in Idaho. The water is awesome, but is very very cold and a cold shower would most definitely be abusive and tortuous. It can't be any warmer in Alaska. Poor kid.

Cold water is cold water, no matter where you are. I hate to defend Alaska, because I generally hate it here, and I don't want to defend the hot-sauce mom; however, the idea that water coming out of a tap is somehow colder because it's Alaskan is absurd. It's not like she went out and poured glacier water over the boy. It's still a cold shower and it sucks. The fact that it happened in ALaska makes it no worse than if it were a cold shower else where. When I lived in the "lower 48," I spent a summer without gas or heat; which meant only cold showers. It was 110 degrees outside and the cold shower was still horrible.

[Austin]

When we have our 98 degree summer days, I will often take a cold shower, especially at night. Being perimenopausal doesn't help with these issues. But I start the shower at tepid and then gradually turn it to cold and I control how long I stay in. Being thrust directly into a cold shower and being held there has to be awful, no matter what the climate.

My grandfather was raised in an orphanage and this was a favorite torture technique of the nuns there (ice cold baths), who were crazy psychobitches if only a fraction of the stories he told were true. It was awful and he talked about it often for the rest of his life.

[Maggie Mae]

When we have our 98 degree summer days, I will often take a cold shower, especially at night. Being perimenopausal doesn't help with these issues. But I start the shower at tepid and then gradually turn it to cold and I control how long I stay in. Being thrust directly into a cold shower and being held there has to be awful, no matter what the climate.

My grandfather was raised in an orphanage and this was a favorite torture technique of the nuns there (ice cold baths), who were crazy psychobitches if only a fraction of the stories he told were true. It was awful and he talked about it often for the rest of his life.

Oh that reminds me of Nellie Bly, who was one of the first (if not the very first) female investigative reporters. She went undercover into a mental "hospital" in the 1890s (ish) and wrote and expose for the New York World. The ice baths was one of the techniques practiced on inmates. Her story led to changes, but yes, ice cold water is torture.

[Patsy]

This boy was adopted at age 5 out of Russia. These are not easy kids for anyone to parent and too often adoptive parents are told all they need is love. Not true. Most are reactive attachment disordered and have some degree of damage from prenatal alcohol.

I really don't think that's true, even for kids who have been raised in orphanages like the ones in Russia. "Most"? Attachment disorders to the extent of actual RAD? I don't know, can someone with more of an idea jump in and let us know?

[NurseNell]

I really don't think that's true, even for kids who have been raised in orphanages like the ones in Russia. "Most"? Attachment disorders to the extent of actual RAD? I don't know, can someone with more of an idea jump in and let us know?

You're right, I should change that to many. I've been part of adoption mailing lists and forums for about 20 years now. It certainly seems that the parents most often dealing with RAD are those who've adopted older kids out of Russia and Eastern Europe. The kids in those orphanages don't get the love and nurturing that kids in Latin American orphanges get. The Russian and EE orphanages are more like warehouses. Add that to the significant amount of prenatal alcohol abuse by pregnant women you have a recipe for disaster.

Nell

[stacyf]

Cold water is cold water, no matter where you are. I hate to defend Alaska, because I generally hate it here, and I don't want to defend the hot-sauce mom; however, the idea that water coming out of a tap is somehow colder because it's Alaskan is absurd. It's not like she went out and poured glacier water over the boy. It's still a cold shower and it sucks. The fact that it happened in ALaska makes it no worse than if it were a cold shower else where. When I lived in the "lower 48," I spent a summer without gas or heat; which meant only cold showers. It was 110 degrees outside and the cold shower was still horrible.

Love it cpennylane and was going to say the same thing. Hated Alaska so much I finally got out of there a year ago. Cold water is cold water. If she is in Anchorage on the city water it is 59 degrees coming from the tap. They actually keep the city water a bit warmer so as not to freeze the mains. Yes a cold shower sucks, and sucks bad and can be painful. Thanks to lovely Irene I am now on day 3 of cold showers. That boy was screaming bloody murder in those videos and that mother needs help and lots of it. Not sure if jail is the right place but she was torturing that boy.

[Austin]

nevermind_

[Kitty]

Then don't travel to the 3rd world. Cold showers are the norm in much of Colombia where I visit, and in El Salvador where I worked once. We are spoiled here in the U.S. That doesn't excuse throwing a kid in a cold shower as a form of discipline.

Nell

Indeed, it doesn't. cold showers suck, period, no matter where you are or why you have to take one, and to be thrown into one as a form of punishment is horrible. They can be painful. There is absolutely nothing okay about forcing a child to take off his clothes and take a cold shower. Modesty should not go out the window for "discipline."