Stanley family - Fundies have children removed

[alba]

The bolded strikes me (argh -- no pun intended :lol: ) as being profound -- if I read you right, you're saying that the "spare the rod, spoil the child" interpretation is not actually a defense of physical punishment, but instead saying in effect "do not neglect to give your children steady and balanced guidance."

If that's the case, how tragically sad that is has become the defense of those who want to claim that striking their children with a physical object is a biblical form is disciple. :cry:

This makes sense. Shepherds don't, to my knowledge, ever hit their sheep. The rod/crook is used to steer them out of harm's way and to herd them.

[feministxtian]

Let me preface by saying I have a BS in Biblical Studies from Liberty University (snark away)...

This topic was brought up in one of my classes about the shepherd and the rod. My OT professor (Dr. Hindson) made it very clear that the rod was used to direct and corral the sheep, not hit them. Sheep are pretty stupid, skittish critters; hitting them would make them afraid of the shepherd's crook and would then expose them to the wild beasts that would kill them. One of my classmates INSISTED that the rod was for hitting...wayward critters and children (there were some seriously whacked out fundies in my classes).

Anyway, Dr. Hindson decided to then show us an interview with an Israeli shepherd who demonstrated how he used his rod with his sheep and he made it quite clear that the sheep were never, ever hit. So, the idea of "spare the rod, spoil the child" was more that the child was to be directed, kept safe and guided, rather than hit...that not directing, guiding and keeping a child safe was what spoiled the child, that the child would not learn obedience or where a safe place was...

I've had this debate with numerous fundies over the years (I like riling people up on Christian message boards) and they will immediately tell me I'm wrong...

[Koala]

I spanked my kids. We had a paddle and a hair brush..paddle mostly hung on the wall,for all to see and "fear" and , well you know what kind of grip you get with a hair brush. Never discipline in anger, limit licks given, punishment to fit the offense. Never slap..slapping IMO is humiliation

Totally agree! Being slapped is totally humiliating, but having a paddle hanging on the wall and being hit with both a paddle and a brush- that's not humiliating at all ( <----scathing sarcasm :roll: ). Disgusting.

I have no fucking patience for people who inflict pain on their kids. Don't kid yourself- you humiliated your kids just as much as Hal humiliates his. You just package it differently by calling it spanking instead of beating. Hal's a monster, but at least he's an honest monster.

Edit to add- Nope, not a "spanking" debate, but I will speak up anytime I see shit like this until people stop hitting their kids.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Let me preface by saying I have a BS in Biblical Studies from Liberty University (snark away)...

This topic was brought up in one of my classes about the shepherd and the rod. My OT professor (Dr. Hindson) made it very clear that the rod was used to direct and corral the sheep, not hit them. Sheep are pretty stupid, skittish critters; hitting them would make them afraid of the shepherd's crook and would then expose them to the wild beasts that would kill them. One of my classmates INSISTED that the rod was for hitting...wayward critters and children (there were some seriously whacked out fundies in my classes).

Anyway, Dr. Hindson decided to then show us an interview with an Israeli shepherd who demonstrated how he used his rod with his sheep and he made it quite clear that the sheep were never, ever hit. So, the idea of "spare the rod, spoil the child" was more that the child was to be directed, kept safe and guided, rather than hit...that not directing, guiding and keeping a child safe was what spoiled the child, that the child would not learn obedience or where a safe place was...

I've had this debate with numerous fundies over the years (I like riling people up on Christian message boards) and they will immediately tell me I'm wrong...

But Zsu taught me that I hate my kids if I don't beat them:

"Proverbs 23:13-14 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."

[momof2treasures]

I was on a few occasions "slapped" as a kid. Humiliating? I guess. These were isolated incidents where I had pushed things to a point of shock and that was my mothers reaction. I'll take that any day over being beaten with a paddle or brush on the regular. That sounds absolutely terrifying!

[EmmieJ]

I've shared before that I was spanked as a child. My father was the usual one who meted out that punishment. However, the rules of the household were pretty clear and definitely consistent. Thus, spankings were rare, and after a child reached a certain age, punishments would take other forms, such as being grounded, losing a week's allowance, etc. The spankings were over our clothed behinds, and were not severe. I do not hold it against my parents for this type of discipline, because 1) that's how they were raised; 2) that's how most parents disciplined back then; and 3) they were truly very loving parents who did not want to spank but thought that certain behaviors should not be tolerated (i.e., talking back (that was a huge no-no)). However, I will say that it made having a close relationship with my father impossible for me. I loved him, knew he loved his family including me, but running to him for a spontaneous hug? Nope. Confiding my troubles to him? Nope. Asking a matter of fact question, like "can you help me with this math problem?" - yes.

My mother, who rarely spanked, was the one I think all of us kids felt closest to, and who we turned to with our troubles, or our accomplishments. Maybe that's fairly normal, if it's your mom who is at home with you most of the time and your dad is off at work. But I think the discipline played a factor. Dad was the enforcer. Mom was the consoler.

Note: All 8 of us kids turned out fine. We remain very close, and there are no nasty family arguments or resentments. I think that despite the occasional spankings, we knew that our parents loved us unconditionally and were proud of us.

Now, when I had my son, I thought I'd follow in their footsteps re discipline. That is until the first time I spanked my son, on his diapered butt. The look of shock he gave me as he burst into tears tore at my heart. I felt like I had just betrayed a trust and would never be able to fully regain it. I still feel that so deeply. I wish I had never done that. I think I spanked him one or two more times, and then decided that it was wrong and vowed never to do it again.

But back to the mis-used bible verse. Sadly, fundies will never accept that the verse does not give them blanket approval to get a rod to beat their child with, all in the name of God. I think some people join fundamental religious groups because they want an excuse to beat their children. "I'm not abusive! I'm a good Christian parent."

[cornetto]

https://www.facebook.com/bringthestanle ... e/timeline

Hal is going to represent himself in court. :popcorn2:

[VaSportsMom]

https://www.facebook.com/bringthestanleykidshome/timeline

Hal is going to represent himself in court. :popcorn2:

That should be interesting though I suspect it is nothing more than an attempt to get more $$ from their supporters.

[Saltwithsavor]

Support has dropped off....people have questioned how they are spending the money..I understand there is some sort of investigation..the person who started the GFM pg has not commented in weeks.. Locally people are losing interest..

[Koala]

A man who is his own lawyer has a fool for a client- no truer words...especially in this case.

But just think of how clearly the crazy is gonna shine through! Great idea Hal :roll:

[Burris]

Well I feel that it's far more pathological to plot and calmly hit a child with an object, but we aren't going to debate spanking again are we?

I might agree with you - except in the case of my own father he never did a damned things except in anger. And once he was angry and had enough horse piss in him, he could or would not control himself.

I won't even tell you what he did to me when I took some cold chicken from the fridge for my lunch when he'd planned it for his own.

On the other hand, I'm not sure which thing is worse - a raving maniac, or someone who is not angry and still inflicts pain on his kids to frighten them and secure their compliance.

If one adult belts another, the police get involved. If a parents whips a child with a buckled belt - that, apparently, is a family matter.

Run out in traffic? Spank. Stick a knife in a wall socket? Spank. But really, is it necessary for someone more than five times the size of the child to use an instrument? His hand can't inflict enough pain on its own?

[Caribou]

I just do.not.understand the pathology behind hurting a child in the name of "discipline". I'm 52 years old. My parents were "of the generation" who spanked. Neither one ever laid a finger on me. After I had kids (who were NEVER punished physically), I asked both my Mom and Dad about their childhoods. Neither one of THEM had either, ever, been hit by their parents and my Dad was born in 1926 and my Mom in 1931. We all turned out to be successful, stable, loving adults.

Strange how that works out generationally, no?

[Palimpsest]

https://www.facebook.com/bringthestanleykidshome/timeline

Hal is going to represent himself in court. :popcorn2:

Translation from Hal-speak: No lawyer will represent me because I have no case and no money.

[Cactus]

Translation from Hal-speak: No lawyer will represent me because I have no case and no money.

If it's anything like my experiences with people who represent themselves in court, it will mean Hal will waffle on and on and on in the courtroom so that he can't launch any appeals about not getting an opportunity to speak, while other lawyered parties (if there are any) will have the sense to stay quiet.

I'm not normally a popcorn person, but this should be good.

[nelliebelle1197]

I am not a biblical scholar. But I have studied a bit. And since this is one of Hal's hot button subjects..I've got to speak up. I spanked my kids. We had a paddle and a hair brush..paddle mostly hung on the wall,for all to see and "fear" and , well you know what kind of grip you get with a hair brush. Never discipline in anger, limit licks given, punishment to fit the offense. Never slap..slapping IMO is humiliation and doesn't acheive any goal..in Hal's case it caused physical pain, and a bloody nose.

In scripture the rod is used to steady the foot, GUIDANCE for the sheep, and balance. Not as a weapon. Only as a distraction to get away from a predator..so when the rod was mentioned in Proverbs it was an analogy to indicate how important, steadiness,, guidance, and balance were to the upbringing of children. Christ used Shepard and sheep a lot in his teaching because it was basic life during his time. But still is applicable today. Use common sense, be gentle, and be consistent.

As far as the constitution goes..Hal has violated everyone of his children's constitutional rights..because he views his children as property..a crying shame..

You don't have a Constitutional right to hit your kids, your dog or your wife. If you did the latter two, you could be arrested. Explain the difference, especially in light of an actual biblical scholar's point of view on this topic.

[Jencendiary]

Hot Springs resident here. Hot Springs Daily is not the paper of record in our area. That's the Hot Springs Sentinel Record.

HSD is basically a vanity project buy a guy who doesn't know how to news. He had other writers, at one point. One of my co-workers used to write articles for the site. She said that on election night '12, the site owner's wife literally wept that Obama was re-elected, because the "the Blacks" were going to rise up and kill us all in our beds.

edited because riffles.

[shedemei]

But really, is it necessary for someone more than five times the size of the child to use an instrument? His hand can't inflict enough pain on its own?

The reasoning I've heard is that it's somehow kinder and less traumatizing for the child, because it's less personal and connected to the parent.

People can rationalize anything.

[ILoveJellybeans]

The reasoning I've heard is that it's somehow kinder and less traumatizing for the child, because it's less personal and connected to the parent.

People can rationalize anything.

Its like they think kids are stupid. They don't think "Oh, its the paddle that hurts me, I should be very afraid of it". They are afraid of it, but they know that the paddle just doesn't float over to them and hit them. They know that their parents go and get it, then use it to beat them with, and that they should be afraid of their parents too.

You know what is kinder and less traumatizing to a child? Not hitting them with anything at all, not even hands.

[Evilbad]

My moms goal was just to make it hurt worse, so if you cut a hole in the paddle you get more speed in your swing and can hit harder.

[ILoveJellybeans]

My moms goal was just to make it hurt worse, so if you cut a hole in the paddle you get more speed in your swing and can hit harder.

It is sick how there are so many people who actually spend time thinking about the most painful and least visible way to hurt a helpless child.

[anniebgood]

My moms goal was just to make it hurt worse, so if you cut a hole in the paddle you get more speed in your swing and can hit harder.

And you could hear those things whistle through the air too.

I got swatted a few time in my life but never to the point I couldn't sit down. My mom and dad didn't believe in it which was astonishing considering when they were born (1899 & 1924). Our kids got a patch or two. Time outs were more workable.

[Jezebel]

Translation from Hal-speak: No lawyer will represent me because I have no case and no money.

Or, any lawyer who might be convinced to take the case will tell Hal to shut up, back away from Facebook, and quit adding fuel to the fire. Hal's clearly not the kind of guy who would tolerate or take that kind of advice, or let anyone else do the talking for him.

I think we're going to need one of those big movie-theater popcorn machines running full-bore when he shows up in court.

[mrs]

Looks like the Stanley's have full custody of all the kids. (

facebook.com/bringthestanleykidshome?fref=ts)

On a side note, I read elsewhere that the oldest adult daughter escaped with the help of neighbors. I wonder how true, that is?

(websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?273954-AR-Fully-Armed-Sheriffs-Remove-7-Homeschool-Children-from-Prepper-Family&p=11859158#post11859158)

[Toothfairy]

I still hope cps is on their ass. And their supporters are telling him to sue cps? ? Good luck with that.

[polecat]

The reasoning I've heard is that it's somehow kinder and less traumatizing for the child, because it's less personal and connected to the parent.

People can rationalize anything.

My mom always used "tools" to spank us so she wouldn't hurt her hand when she hit us. So there's that, too.