Wooden spoons, 3 hr whipping and all night prayer

[BrownieMomma]

Thus saieth a man, Joe, at my church. Joe said he was 11yo, in bed, crying over something, and why exactly his father felt to whip him for three hours he did not explain but Dad did indeed whip him and then prayed over Joe the rest of the night.

I think Joe is trying to use this as a Good Example of Fathering.

So, at my church, some of the men, including Joe, are invited to sit on the platform during church. I am not sure what is the criteria for this, as I know two are divorced and remarried, who the heck knows.

They sit segregated on one side, the band on the other. Women are allowed to play in the band but are never allowed to sit with the men, who must be some kind of elders.

Any man on the platform may take the pulpit to say whatever it is the Lord has laid on his heart. Anyone in the congregation may stand and testify about whatever is on their heart. Some women in the band testify from the band area but may never approach the pulpit and speak from behind it.

So it kinda looks like women are equal in the church but not really.

The Lord is laying it on my heart to testify about how I used to use the Pearls method with the PVC pipe and then the Lord opened my eyes to positive discipline.

A young mother, around 30, sits in front of me and has a one year old child. Last church service she shows up with a wooden spatula which she holds in her hand, waves at her kid and smacks his leg with it numerous times. Lightly.

I am really wanting to say something about all this. There is more, ofc. I want to stand up and say that Joe's father abused Joe. I want to say to the mothers to put their kitchen tools back in their kitchens.

There are shades of Gothard in this church. There is one main family, which has married to the pastor's family so really just about everyone at the church is related by blood or marriage now. I know the older parents, whose kids are now mid-20's, used at least some Gothard back in the day.

They love bomb me and my kids a lot.

I hate the sight of those wooden spoons. I hate how the same kids 3 and under regularly get taken out for spankings. I hate how that is lauded from the pulpit, not by the pastor but by these other men who get up and speak. It hurts my spirit when the mothers are gathered and start the Bragfest O' Spanking.

Joe's wife works full-time. She is very friendly and caring to me. She adores Joe but Joe makes my skin crawl. I was partners with his young teen daughter at a game, Joe joined in and he treated her like absolute crap. I mean, he said "enough" and she literally clamped her jaw closed. He kept saying how bad she was at the game but I kept saying she was doing good, keep going, etc. I think I kinda hate Joe tbh.

There is one person at this church I love most dearly who is part of the main family. We used to work together. If I leave, that's the last bit of relationship we have left.

Bleh.

[ILoveJellybeans]

That is awful and sickening. Just reading the thread title made me somewhat hate the people who it was about. How could someone do that to their child???

[Grimalkin]

That would be hard to listen to and witness on to a regular basis. Are you feeling conflicted? I hope you find the love and support you need that will nurture you and your family.

[ariel9]

Oh my goodness that sounds beyond horrible. I think a lot of us can say that we can feel like outsiders on beliefs in some settings.I wouldn't say to confront everyone and tell them they are awful. However you may want to think deeper of leaving your church because it's not exactly a place where you want to question how could people proudly be abusive or sexist.

[Koala]

This is probably going to come across rather harsh, but why are you staying in a place where people are assaulting their children and women are not treated equally to men? I would be concerned about the effects that might be having on your own children...

[DGayle]

This sounds like the beginning of a psychological thriller where the single adult with some sanity realizes she has to save a bunch of kids from being sacrificed on the Alter of Gothardism.

[Anny Nym]

They love bomb me and my kids a lot.

:?

@BrownieMomma, that sounds awfully alot like they are trying to "rope in" you and your children.

This particular church seems to display a very unhealthy enviroment you discovered. Not wanting to overstep any boundaries, but are you sure this church is doing you good?

[lemonhead]

If I were a kid...sitting in that church, listening to adults talk about whipping/hitting other kids for hours at a time...I would be terrified :( That poor kid in front of you who gets "smacked" throughout the service--I can tell you from personal experience he/she will have a wooden spoon phobia as an adult. I mean, the (not so subtle) sexism worries me too, but the culture of abuse sounds pretty horrifying. Have your kids ever mentioned anything about it bothering them, or do they seem anxious after a service like that? Maybe I'm projecting here :| and I know you would miss your friend, but geez that sounds awful for everyone except those in power.

[latraviata]

This is probably going to come across rather harsh, but why are you staying in a place where people are assaulting their children and women are not treated equally to men? I would be concerned about the effects that might be having on your own children...

Why is that harsh?

Every sane person would run from that church (or any church for that matter) as fast as possible...

[Sola]

^ this.

Do you have children? If so why are you exposing them to this? Why is your friendship with this woman (which could be continued out of the church if she is any kind of real friend) more important than protecting your impressionable children from these damaging teachings and atmosphere? I'd think very carefully about that if I were you.

[littlemommy]

Oh man, I can just imagine what would hapoen if a mandated reporter accidentally went to that church! Or at least I can imagine if *this* one went. Get out of there. Why the heck wouldn't you? There are like forty million bazillion churches in the world. Go to any other one.

[Grimalkin]

I am a Catholic, I have to admit it is really hard to feel part of the community in my church. It is so big it is hard to know who is new and who is not. I try and make a point to be extra nice to people especially moms with little kids who are unruly, I know how hard it is.I can see how somebody who may be feeling vulnerable would be attracted to a church where people 'love bombed' you.

Do you think you can perhaps go to another church on the sly? Like a service at a different time, and continued yours until you found a home? Maybe also seek some support somewhere else? If I here is a church that you get good vibes I recommen you try and speak to the pastor and tell them where you are. if you are like me incredibly shy that would be really hard. Sometimes though I need to get past my insecurities and suck it up.

I hope you find a place that nourishes you and allows you to flourish.

And people in your life that lift you up and not make you feel bad about yourself.

[BrownieMomma]

My children are 14, 16, and 25. They don't seem to notice the wooden spoons or the "discipline" that occurs. I do talk to them about it a little bit, mainly to teach my own kids that kind of discipline is not necessary and is, in fact, rather bad parenting.

I know this sounds incongruous but the overall atmosphere at the church is gentle. I just happen to sit behind the two mothers who wield wooden spoons, and the one mother of a 2-3yo girl who takes the girl out every single service for spankings, often the girl is wailing "Don't hit me Mama." Ugh, one time this mother was carrying around a belt all service.

To which, the general attitude is that it is unpleasant but the girl is being willful and the mother is being a good mother. That is the feeling I get.

The pastor does not advocate this from the pulpit. It is other people who stand and talk about it, one old man in his 70's who never married or had kids stood up one day and went on and on about how great it was that the mothers were spanking.

Because people really do seem to think that if you are spanking then you are being a good, active parent but if you don't spank then you are permissive.

Which, there are plenty of permissive parents out there. It's just that it is possible to raise children without relying on spanking, but it does take learning skills. These parents with young children have their own parents right there in the church, sitting on the platform, so the gparents are pushing spanking and the parents go right along with it. I mean, they turned out well, right?

I have a hard time reconciling the things I used to believe in, or what I think I should believe in, like the husband is the head of the family and the umbrella over it and how my life really is. I am just sick and tired of attitudes like Robert that single mothers are a blight on society.

(Guess what Robert? Those "problematic" single mothers are probably not in any church on Sunday.)

Yes, I'm one of those single moms who can make dads look obsolete. My kids are good kids. They make good grades. They get along with people. I have very good relationships with each child. Sometimes it takes more work than other times, but relationships ebb and flow. It is by no means perfect but we have a strong family bond and our home is a place of safety and peace. Which it would not have been if the x-hubs were present.

I am just not about control. Seriously, the Duggars have taught me that, along with the Pearls and Ezzo and Dobson et al. I am raising children whom I hope will make their own genuine acceptance of Christ, not because I feared and bullied them into it.

I don't know what I'm going to do. I skipped church Sunday because I just didn't want to deal with it. No one is ever going to stand up and say that whipping a kid for 3 hours is just plain wrong. Apparently the man who did that is a Big Deal in the church structure somehow.

I have been trying to focus on the good and ignore what I don't agree with. Not sure how wise this is overall.

[Anny Nym]

and the one mother of a 2-3yo girl who takes the girl out every single service for spankings, often the girl is wailing "Don't hit me Mama." Ugh, one time this mother was carrying around a belt all service.

To which, the general attitude is that it is unpleasant but the girl is being willful and the mother is being a good mother. That is the feeling I get.

NO! Just.no!

That woman is NOT a "good mother"! Reading the quote about such a tiny litte thing crying for her ... mother... do not hit her made me literally cringe. This is blatant child abuse, point blank!

What is going on there anyway? Why are this children being hit? I usually really like reading your posts, BrownieMomma, but in this case I just don´t understand why you do write that?

Hitting or not hitting a child is a conscious chioce. There is no excuse for it.

[BrownieMomma]

NO! Just.no!

That woman is NOT a "good mother"! Reading the quote about such a tiny litte thing crying for her ... mother... do not hit her made me literally cringe. This is blatant child abuse, point blank!

What is going on there anyway? Why are this children being hit? I usually really like reading your posts, BrownieMomma, but in this case I just don´t understand why you do write that?

Hitting or not hitting a child is a conscious chioce. There is no excuse for it.

Oh I know it's not good parenting. I didn't always know that, at one time when my oldest was 9ish, I was using the Pearls for awhile, at the advice of someone I knew from homeschool group. That kid is now 25.

There are a LOT of people in my general area who believe in spanking. Corporal punishment is still allowed in public school. I have to sign a paper every year that it will not be permitted for my children.

This is what goes on at my church. The church services are 2-2.5 hrs long, there is a nursery room but it is for parents to use, there is no babysitter, similar to a cry room. Parents are expected to bring their infants to services and literally raise the children in church.

It is a small church but there are about eight young couples who form a core group and they have a bunch of kids ranging from newborn to 10yo.

I have been trying to ignore this stuff for over a year now but there is a young mother that sits right in front of me. Her child just turned one. Apparently this occasion is marked by taking up your wooden spoon, bringing it to church, and popping your toddler repeatedly for normal, active 1yo behavior.

I can't ignore this. She held that spoon the entire service, like the other mothers with their weapons. Then for that elder, or whatever he is, to get up and laud his own father for whipping him for three hours... oh boy.

I want to stand up and "testify" and say something but talk about going against the flow. I'm one of those single moms and my kids are pretty good but they aren't perfect by any means. Pretty sure I will be ignored.

[Koala]

Dad did indeed whip him and then prayed over Joe the rest of the night.

I think Joe is trying to use this as a Good Example of Fathering.

The Lord is laying it on my heart to testify about how I used to use the Pearls method with the PVC pipe and then the Lord opened my eyes to positive discipline.

A young mother, around 30, sits in front of me and has a one year old child. Last church service she shows up with a wooden spatula which she holds in her hand, waves at her kid and smacks his leg with it numerous times.

I hate the sight of those wooden spoons. I hate how the same kids 3 and under regularly get taken out for spankings. I hate how that is lauded from the pulpit, not by the pastor but by these other men who get up and speak. It hurts my spirit when the mothers are gathered and start the Bragfest O' Spanking.

My children are 14, 16, and 25. They don't seem to notice the wooden spoons or the "discipline" that occurs.

I know this sounds incongruous but the overall atmosphere at the church is gentle. I just happen to sit behind the two mothers who wield wooden spoons, and the one mother of a 2-3yo girl who takes the girl out every single service for spankings, often the girl is wailing "Don't hit me Mama." Ugh, one time this mother was carrying around a belt all service.

To which, the general attitude is that it is unpleasant but the girl is being willful and the mother is being a good mother. That is the feeling I get.

Women are allowed to play in the band but are never allowed to sit with the men, who must be some kind of elders.

Some women in the band testify from the band area but may never approach the pulpit and speak from behind it.

So it kinda looks like women are equal in the church but not really.

There are shades of Gothard in this church.

They love bomb me and my kids a lot.

Do you see how (in light of these quotes) it is very hard for us to see why you would continue to subject your children to this kind of behavior? You have admittedly used the "Pearl Method" of child abuse on them in the past (sorry...going to call it what it is). To continue to endorse a church that supports such abuse sends the message that you haven't really accepted just how horribly wrong it is.

I have a hard time swallowing the idea that at 14, 16, and 25 your children have taken no notice of mothers wielding wooden spoons and belts, and children wailing for their mothers not to hit them. I have a hard time swallowing the idea that the repeated blathering from the pulpit endorsing such heinous behavior falls on deaf ears.

Will you be okay if they go on to treat your grandchildren in such a manner? After all, you did it to them and continue to take them to a church that endorses it. I know this sounds harsh, but you must think of the effect this will have on them.

And that's all to say nothing of the sexist attitudes. I don't know whether you have sons or daughters, but either way, is this the message you want to send them?

I have no idea what a "love bomb" is, but I am certain of this much. It is TOO high a price to pay for your childrens' emotional well being. There is nothing these people can be offering you that justifies you subjecting them to this kind of behavior.

[Koala]

Oh I know it's not good parenting. I didn't always know that, at one time when my oldest was 9ish, I was using the Pearls for awhile, at the advice of someone I knew from homeschool group. That kid is now 25.

There are a LOT of people in my general area who believe in spanking. Corporal punishment is still allowed in public school. I have to sign a paper every year that it will not be permitted for my children.

This is what goes on at my church. The church services are 2-2.5 hrs long, there is a nursery room but it is for parents to use, there is no babysitter, similar to a cry room. Parents are expected to bring their infants to services and literally raise the children in church.

It is a small church but there are about eight young couples who form a core group and they have a bunch of kids ranging from newborn to 10yo.

I have been trying to ignore this stuff for over a year now but there is a young mother that sits right in front of me. Her child just turned one. Apparently this occasion is marked by taking up your wooden spoon, bringing it to church, and popping your toddler repeatedly for normal, active 1yo behavior.

I can't ignore this. She held that spoon the entire service, like the other mothers with their weapons. Then for that elder, or whatever he is, to get up and laud his own father for whipping him for three hours... oh boy.

I want to stand up and "testify" and say something but talk about going against the flow. I'm one of those single moms and my kids are pretty good but they aren't perfect by any means. Pretty sure I will be ignored.

I am sorry, but if you stand up and "testify", it should be regarding the rampant abuse in the church. The single moms can fend for themselves, but these 1-3 year olds that are having the ever loving shit beat out of them have no voice. And your testimony? It should be proceeded by

1) An apology to your children for continuing to endorse this nonsense

2) Walking out the door. For good. There is nothing okay about these people.

[Anny Nym]

As @Koala already said, what do you gain out of this church?

Parents are expected to bring their infants to services and literally raise the children in church.

Honestly, it sounds very cult-like ...

Adding there that a true friend will be still your friend, even if you don´t go to the same church or like the same activities. If this is not the case you should consider this friendship better today than tomorrow or it could cost you alot of tear in the future.

@BrownieMomma, you already overcame the use of the Pearl method and gained a critical view of this kind ob damaging pedagogy - why do you want to stop now half way down the road and stay in that church?

There will be more joy about one remorseful than there would be over 99 righteous!

[TrueRebel1]

Can I just say, I feel that the parents who think they're being "good parents" by toting around wooden spoons and dishing out smacks for every little boundary-pushing, IMO teach the kids to expect the spanking and continue to have more "bad" behavior. I have friends who do the wooden spoon thing, and friends who don't. The ones who do have children that are perpetually being "naughty". Whereas the ones who don't, seem to have children who understand the boundaries and respect them -- not perfect kids by any means, but so different than the wooden spoon families.

[BrownieMomma]

Why do I stay?

I stay for some of the very reasons I've seen listed as to why people even ever start attending a church like this.

These people have been here for me in a very dark and difficult year in which I was nearly homeless summer before last and through most of this year, when I got railroaded from a small accounting firm.

When my life has been unstable and insecure, they have been the only lifeline I've had. I am estranged from my family of origin, from mother and father/stepmother, my siblings. My husband walked out years and years ago and really truly it is just me and my kids.

These people at church are really just about the only family and friends I have. My kids have friends from school. I moved to this community to go to school, so I'm not in my hometown with the people I grew up with and only have FB contact with any of them.

When I am worrying and fearing about where we are going to sleep at night, and that gets better but I'm still having all kinds of issues due to my unstable job situation... that these mothers are spanking their kids is not my biggest problem.

I am only in the rental house I have right now because the assistant pastor and his wife had acquired it right before they found out I needed a place to live. They were going to raze it and that will happen at some point in the next 5 years. So they fixed it up and let us move in.

So, yes, kinda hard for me to turn and walk away. We go to church and it's the norm for people to float around, sharing hugs, catching up. It is warm, it is friendly.

I know these people love their children. The grandparents, the parents. I just also know that they believe they are doing the right and best thing but I don't know how to introduce the idea that it's actually not a good thing.

All the spanking grandparents have all their children in church, with grandkids in tow. Kind of hard for me to come along and say hey that's not good when my own family situation is bad.

[Pretzel]

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

No one in their right mind would continue going to services at that place and silently supporting the abuse that is going on.

[Grimalkin]

Why do I stay?

I stay for some of the very reasons I've seen listed as to why people even ever start attending a church like this.

These people have been here for me in a very dark and difficult year in which I was nearly homeless summer before last and through most of this year, when I got railroaded from a small accounting firm.

When my life has been unstable and insecure, they have been the only lifeline I've had. I am estranged from my family of origin, from mother and father/stepmother, my siblings. My husband walked out years and years ago and really truly it is just me and my kids.

These people at church are really just about the only family and friends I have. My kids have friends from school. I moved to this community to go to school, so I'm not in my hometown with the people I grew up with and only have FB contact with any of them.

When I am worrying and fearing about where we are going to sleep at night, and that gets better but I'm still having all kinds of issues due to my unstable job situation... that these mothers are spanking their kids is not my biggest problem.

I am only in the rental house I have right now because the assistant pastor and his wife had acquired it right before they found out I needed a place to live. They were going to raze it and that will happen at some point in the next 5 years. So they fixed it up and let us move in.

So, yes, kinda hard for me to turn and walk away. We go to church and it's the norm for people to float around, sharing hugs, catching up. It is warm, it is friendly.

I know these people love their children. The grandparents, the parents. I just also know that they believe they are doing the right and best thing but I don't know how to introduce the idea that it's actually not a good thing.

All the spanking grandparents have all their children in church, with grandkids in tow. Kind of hard for me to come along and say hey that's not good when my own family situation is bad.

I Genuinely feel for you. It makes me think about how my church can be more welcoming to vulnerable people. I think you know there are things just not right at your church. I hope you find the wisdom, strength, and courage to find a loving healthy place you deserve.

Can you possibly talk frankly about your concearns to your good friend? If not, that's not a healthy enviornment. I really do want to encourage you to visit other churches and speak with pastors at ones you like. You may decide you like your current church and stay, or you may find something better. I get the feeling you are uneasy and know deep inside that this may not be the best place for you. You can be thankful they helped you when you needed it and move on.

[Anny Nym]

Why do I stay?

I stay for some of the very reasons I've seen listed as to why people even ever start attending a church like this.

These people have been here for me in a very dark and difficult year in which I was nearly homeless summer before last and through most of this year, when I got railroaded from a small accounting firm.

When my life has been unstable and insecure, they have been the only lifeline I've had. I am estranged from my family of origin, from mother and father/stepmother, my siblings. My husband walked out years and years ago and really truly it is just me and my kids.

These people at church are really just about the only family and friends I have. My kids have friends from school. I moved to this community to go to school, so I'm not in my hometown with the people I grew up with and only have FB contact with any of them.

When I am worrying and fearing about where we are going to sleep at night, and that gets better but I'm still having all kinds of issues due to my unstable job situation... that these mothers are spanking their kids is not my biggest problem.

I am only in the rental house I have right now because the assistant pastor and his wife had acquired it right before they found out I needed a place to live. They were going to raze it and that will happen at some point in the next 5 years. So they fixed it up and let us move in.

So, yes, kinda hard for me to turn and walk away. We go to church and it's the norm for people to float around, sharing hugs, catching up. It is warm, it is friendly.

I know these people love their children. The grandparents, the parents. I just also know that they believe they are doing the right and best thing but I don't know how to introduce the idea that it's actually not a good thing.

All the spanking grandparents have all their children in church, with grandkids in tow. Kind of hard for me to come along and say hey that's not good when my own family situation is bad.

Oh dear... whow... okay, this seriously is now a complete game changer here! I thought you just "causually" went to this particular church.

As you can´t possibly detach yourself and your kids physically now, you may really watch yourself to keep a mental distance - and do you plan to talk to your children about it, at least to your oldest? Maybe he or she haas the same concerns about the child abuse?

[paintergurl]

All the spanking grandparents have all their children in church, with grandkids in tow. Kind of hard for me to come along and say hey that's not good when my own family situation is bad.

Your family situation is not "bad". It is what it is probably because you made some hard decisions, to create a better life for your children. Maybe you should stop comparing your family to those of the "spanking grandparents" and finding yours lacking. Maybe instead, your little family will be a healthier beginning, and years and years from now you will be the loving grandma at church with all your happy, well-adjusted children and grandchildren in tow.

But not at that church.

[latraviata]

All the spanking grandparents have all their children in church, with grandkids in tow. Kind of hard for me to come along and say hey that's not good when my own family situation is bad.

Your family situation is not "bad". It is what it is probably because you made some hard decisions, to create a better life for your children. Maybe you should stop comparing your family to those of the "spanking grandparents" and finding yours lacking. Maybe instead, your little family will be a healthier beginning, and years and years from now you will be the loving grandma at church with all your happy, well-adjusted children and grandchildren in tow.

Oh, how I love religion.....NOT