Wooden spoons, 3 hr whipping and all night prayer

[BrownieMomma]

Deep down I have always held this church at arm's length. Always watching for the cult to rear its head. So far... kinda skirts to the edges but it's not controlling. Like.. the pastor does not get up and say YOU MUST SPANK YOUR KIDS DO NOT SPARE THE ROD. But.. that everyone else is doing it.. that is its own kind of pressure. My kids are too old to spank, so it's an issue I can more easily ignore.

I talk to my children often about healthy relationships and situations. They know and see a lot of what goes on with me and my parents and my siblings. They realize we do not spend holidays with their cousins anymore. So I tell my kids a lot more about life than most people I know.

My oldest child is 25. He is agnostic. He lives at home while finishing college. He does not want to go church so I do not make him. My 16yo son identifies himself as agnostic/atheist. It's some internet thing because really the two ideas do not go together. I have been making him go but lately I decided to stop doing that.

A large part of my decision to not make my 16yo go to church is because of the Duggars and others like them. I have truly come to believe that free will is the name of the game. Why would God bother making robots? He already had angels and souls in Heaven. My 16yo is still a minor by law and a "child" by culture but really he is old enough to decide he doesn't believe in God. All I've been doing is driving him out of the family the moment he can get away. I don't want that. Does this mean I love my son more than I love my Savior? Well I feel that loving my child *is* loving and honoring Jesus.

My 14yo daughter, she's sensitive to things. She does not have much of an opinion on childrearing practices because she's not a mother, not close to being a mother, and her teen things are the central focus of her life.

BUT.. I do talk to her about it. We all talk quite a bit about how things are done in a family. I don't have good luck trying to force my authority over my kids. I do a lot better by explaining and talking, admitting I don't know everything while there are a few things I am pretty good at it.

I would not want her to marry in this church. I would hate to see my daughter's beautiful light tamped down by having to do whatever some guy tells her... but people in this church are not like the Duggars or Maxwells, at least not to the extent that I know them.

I would love to think of being the matriarch of a healthy, close-knit family. Sweet, lovely idea.

[docmom]

I understand that it would be very difficult to leave such a source of support, I really do, and I applaud you for allowing your sons to decide what they want to do in terms of going to church with you. I do think that letting your children know, clearly, that there are some things that go on in the church that you disagree with is a reasonable middle ground between silently accepting what goes on and leaving completely. I know it would be hard to get up in church and say you disagree with some of the stuff that's going on, but maybe you could start by striking up individual conversations with some of the younger mothers. You don't need to come right out and say what they're doing is wrong (no better way to turn people off) but maybe you could comiserate with the mother who's always hitting her 2-3 year old saying "My child was like that. Spanking just didn't work for us either. We tried X and that seemed to work well for her" just to let her know that there is another way. Parents who have themselves been brought up with spanking often don't realize that there are other ways and that children raised without spanking are not a bunch of out of control hellions.

[usmcmom]

I am only in the rental house I have right now because the assistant pastor and his wife had acquired it right before they found out I needed a place to live. They were going to raze it and that will happen at some point in the next 5 years. So they fixed it up and let us move in.

Are you afraid you will lose your home if you leave this church? I can see why that weighs heavily in your decision.

Maybe you could begin quietly looking for a new home, in case this pastor does evict you. It will take time, I know, and be difficult, but if that is one of your fears, you might feel better if you construct a plan.

This has the feel of an abuse situation to me. You know deep down that this is not healthy but you don't know how to get out. I'm sorry you are going through this.

[moodygirl86]

NO! Just.no!

That woman is NOT a "good mother"! Reading the quote about such a tiny litte thing crying for her ... mother... do not hit her made me literally cringe. This is blatant child abuse, point blank!

What is going on there anyway? Why are this children being hit? I usually really like reading your posts, BrownieMomma, but in this case I just don´t understand why you do write that?

Hitting or not hitting a child is a conscious chioce. There is no excuse for it.

Seconded. This made my heart wrench.

BrownieMomma, when you speak of your fear that the church will think you're "permissive", what's wrong with being permissive exactly? Permissive, within reason, just means allowing more freedom of choice and not freaking out over small things that don't matter in the grand scheme of things, or being unnecessarily strict. Surely permissive doesn't preclude disciplining when necessary?

[BrownieMomma]

They are on my case about my 16yo not coming to church. "He is under your authority because he still lives at home."

The rationale is that if he comes to church he's more like to feel the Holy Spirit. I will admit, they are very big on coming to church ALL THE TIME. I mean, like some of these people will drive to other towns to attend sister churches on weeknights when ours doesn't have service.

My rationale is that if I keep using a heavy hand with him about it, force him to go, force him to play in the band with us, he is gonna bolt in a big way the split second he can. And I don't want to lose him, so I respect that he feels differently, believes differently, and I'm not going to push him to go anymore.

I don't have any real reason to think they are going to evict me but in my heart it is dependent upon their goodwill, they charge reasonable rent, its an older 3 br 1.5b brick home - I'd have to move to an apartment to find this price. Which I would totally hate.

There are other things that I don't agree with, like KJV only, dogging on Catholic church, have to speak in tongues to go to Heaven - but it seems that every church has its own thing. Ugh, this is all making me get another headache.

[BrownieMomma]

Oh yeah permissive.

Permissive, as in your kid crashes through life as if no one else exists or matters. This is the kid who kicks the back of your chair repeatedly, the kid who shrieks for candy and gets it, the kid who comes in your house and starts helping him/herself to whatever he/she wants.

Think.. Harry Potter's cousin Dudley.

[nomoxian]

If my choices were between going to that service so I could have a house, or having an apartment - even one where I had to sleep in the living room so each kid could have their own space, or getting the two same sexed ones to share - I would do that before stepping one foot into that cult again.

[Pretzel]

Brownie Momma, I think you need to get out of there asap and find a church that doesn't make you feel sick every time you're about to go to a service because of reason 1, 2, 3....

I hope you can find a place where you can grow closer to God AND find support, friendship, acceptance and a lack of anything cultish, abusive, guilt-tripped.

Those people on your current church are messing with your mind. They shower you with love and in turn expect silent approval of their various acts of abuse.

This is not a place where you can thrive, imho, and you deserve a place that makes you thrive!

Brownie Momma, (only if you want to) maybe you could specify your current location a little more so that fellow Christian FJites could help you find a liberal, non-fundie, non-abusive church with great service and edifying sermon? I'm not saying tell us your exact location, but recommending a service is easier with information like "Seattle, WA" than "North West USA". Maybe it could be worth a shot? :think:

[BrownieMomma]

I don't want to move. We acquired 3 cats in May, not easy to find a place where I can afford them. No pet deposit, no additional monthly payments as is the norm in this area.

Pretzel that is very kind of you, I live in a smallish city in a rural area, tons of churches because I'm in the Bible belt. When I leave this church I want a break from all this.

[martian]

Brownie Momma, (only if you want to) maybe you could specify your current location a little more so that fellow Christian FJites could help you find a liberal, non-fundie, non-abusive church with great service and edifying sermon? I'm not saying tell us your exact location, but recommending a service is easier with information like "Seattle, WA" than "North West USA". Maybe it could be worth a shot? :think:

Brownie Momma doesn't sound like a liberal Christian and might not be comfortable in, say, the friendly, neighborhood UU. But there are plenty of non-abusive, conservative Christian churches.

That said, Brownie Momma, it sounds like life has been exhausting lately, and I fully understand your hesitance to leave a place where people have been kind and supportive to you through your rough times. You know best how much room there is on your plate for new challenges. Honestly, I have kids and we went through some housing uncertainty early this year, and I thought I would lose my mind from the stress of it all - the fear that I might fail my children like that, I don't have the words for how awful it was. All the hugs in the world it you want them.

I hear in what you've written how unsettled you're feeling with some of what goes on in your church. I think you're probably very right that denouncing things head on will get you no where, but do you think that a gentle, quiet approach would make you happier, make you feel like you weren't a helpless witness to ugly things? I think moments like your being supportive and encouraging to Joe's daughter might mean a lot more than you think. Kindness matters and a child who, frankly, was being verbally abused had an adult in her corner speaking up for her, contradicting her father's narrative. It might not be a grand, righteous soliloquy in front of the whole church, but I think it's unlikely one of those would change any hearts anyway whereas you defending that girl to her father may really have been taken into her heart and done her some good. Even a little bit of kindness coming at the right time can mean the whole world.

I second the suggestion that you could commiserate with the young mothers and offer gentler experience and suggestion. They get a lot of social rewards and reinforcement for what they're doing - you can provide that for a different viewpoint, one they would likely not entertain otherwise. Seems to me you could do a lot of good in your church subverting the dominant culture and advocating for those children in a non-confrontational way if that's something you feel up to doing. And feeling like you have a plan might make you feel more in control and positive about your circumstances whatever you decide for the future.

[DGayle]

I know this sounds incongruous but the overall atmosphere at the church is gentle. I just happen to sit behind the two mothers who wield wooden spoons, and the one mother of a 2-3yo girl who takes the girl out every single service for spankings, often the girl is wailing "Don't hit me Mama." Ugh, one time this mother was carrying around a belt all service.

I can't get further from this right now, and in real life, I have to take a break (may make some tea) so I don't cry. Please call CPS. There's spanking, and then there's THAT. It's legal to spank, but there's a line, and that evil cretin has crossed it when she's beating a kid enough that the child lives in utter terror. If that's what you see in public, think about what happens when no one's looking.

[BrownieMomma]

It is terrible to listen to the girl plead. I don't get what these parents are expecting when they take young children into a 2 hr or more church service. Not only that, two of these moms bookend a row, let the kids play on the whole row, then start spanking them for transgressions. I sit 2 or 3 rows behind, I can't tell anything the kids have done.

IMO the parents should be more proactive and should take them out of service sooner. Also, if you want the kid to be quiet, why put 4 kids age 5 and under on the same row?

Really having to think about all this is making me dread going to church tomorrow.

[Coco]

Brownie Momma doesn't sound like a liberal Christian and might not be comfortable in, say, the friendly, neighborhood UU. But there are plenty of non-abusive, conservative Christian churches.

That said, Brownie Momma, it sounds like life has been exhausting lately, and I fully understand your hesitance to leave a place where people have been kind and supportive to you through your rough times. You know best how much room there is on your plate for new challenges. Honestly, I have kids and we went through some housing uncertainty early this year, and I thought I would lose my mind from the stress of it all - the fear that I might fail my children like that, I don't have the words for how awful it was. All the hugs in the world it you want them.

I hear in what you've written how unsettled you're feeling with some of what goes on in your church. I think you're probably very right that denouncing things head on will get you no where, but do you think that a gentle, quiet approach would make you happier, make you feel like you weren't a helpless witness to ugly things? I think moments like your being supportive and encouraging to Joe's daughter might mean a lot more than you think. Kindness matters and a child who, frankly, was being verbally abused had an adult in her corner speaking up for her, contradicting her father's narrative. It might not be a grand, righteous soliloquy in front of the whole church, but I think it's unlikely one of those would change any hearts anyway whereas you defending that girl to her father may really have been taken into her heart and done her some good. Even a little bit of kindness coming at the right time can mean the whole world.

I second the suggestion that you could commiserate with the young mothers and offer gentler experience and suggestion. They get a lot of social rewards and reinforcement for what they're doing - you can provide that for a different viewpoint, one they would likely not entertain otherwise. Seems to me you could do a lot of good in your church subverting the dominant culture and advocating for those children in a non-confrontational way if that's something you feel up to doing. And feeling like you have a plan might make you feel more in control and positive about your circumstances whatever you decide for the future.

Martian, thank you. That is such a beautiful suggestion. Those kinds of interactions with hurting kids will last a lifetime. Once, when i was little, a visiting missionary lady walked up to me and gave me a hug when i was hurting and i thought no one noticed. Those are the people who show Christ's love. It doesn't take much, but to the little kids it can mean the world. And even just a wordless hug can let them know that someone notices their struggles and cares. I hope you can find peace about it, BrownieMomma.