Courtship & JB's Spiel About How It Avoids Heartache

[LongDogMom]

Him saying ''giving pieces away'' seems to imply you only have so much and if you give some away, you're less than 100% - forever. That's how it comes across to me, anyways.

From a spiritual perspective, no one runs out of love.

One of my favorite lines in a film dialog (Mansfield Park, with Johnny Miller):

''There are as many forms of love as there are moments in time.''

This is what I think is weird about the whole "giving away pieces of their heart" stuff as well. Your heart expands indefinitely without limitation and if a relationship doesn't work out, it doesn't necessarily diminish your heart. That's a strange view to have imo.

With courtship only happening once they have a approval of JB, it's almost as if they need to be sure from the moment they say yes to the courtship which, while it may work out great sometimes, doesn't always ...I mean, they barely know the person when they start "Courting". I'm not sure how that is any different than dating once you are older and ready to settle down...let's face it, when most of us are at that point in our lives we look at the people we meet with the possibility of them being "The One". It would see to me that if you are truly soul mates that it wouldn't matter if you date or "court", hold hands or have sex, you will want to be together. That is how I feel about my husband and we've been together 27 years.

To me, it seems that Courting would be even more devastating than dating with the potential to be more hurtful because a lot of times you may go out on a date with someone and you both realize after a couple of dates that you aren't right for each other. You don't even necessarily feel any hurt and can even remain friends, but your deeper values aren't in sync or whatever and that's okay. That's how you learn more about yourself, what you want and even more importantly, what you DON'T want! But in Courting it's almost assumed by everyone it'll lead to marriage from the start and if it doesn't it's a huge almost-scandel with the associated humilation and I can't imagine how uncomfortable it would be if you realized after a month or so that you don't want to marry them. Everyone asking every ten seconds what you think of each other and basically having to tell someone who thinks you are heading towards marriage that you don't feel the same or like them enough to marry them. I think that is way more humiliating than dating for a few months when marriage is unlikely to even be mentioned.

[Rainytown]

Sometimes I wonder if JB and M did the deed before marriage.

They reduce EVERYTHING to physical intimacy.

Maybe I'm alone here, but so be it.

THEY HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO DO.

Seriously. Most people have hobbies, interests, hopes and dreams. They set goals and accomplish them. They look forward to the future. What do the Duggars have to look forward to? They're not allowed to participate in the most basic of life's experiences. The kids don't go to public school and never will. They have no chance to get higher education, either. They won't make the lifetime friendships and shared experiences of most kids who live in a town all their lives. They don't work outside of the home. (Jill is a "midwife". Really?) Most people meet friends and potential spouses at work. They're not allowed to have hobbies except music or something else suitably "Christian". I've never seen a book besides the Bible in that house, for instance. There's no church youth group, sports teams, or any other pastime most adults enjoy, like a trip to the movies, seeing a concert, or outdoor pursuits. (Oh. They go hunting, don't they?) Jim Boob thinks that trotting them out for political appearances is a great idea, too. Uh, no.

I submit that SEX is Jim Boob and MEchelle's God. They spend more time obsessing over sex and sexuality than anything else in their lives.

[SassyPants]

Maybe I'm alone here, but so be it.

THEY HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO DO.

Seriously. Most people have hobbies, interests, hopes and dreams. They set goals and accomplish them. They look forward to the future. What do the Duggars have to look forward to? They're not allowed to participate in the most basic of life's experiences. The kids don't go to public school and never will. They have no chance to get higher education, either. They won't make the lifetime friendships and shared experiences of most kids who live in a town all their lives. They don't work outside of the home. (Jill is a "midwife". Really?) Most people meet friends and potential spouses at work. They're not allowed to have hobbies except music or something else suitably "Christian". I've never seen a book besides the Bible in that house, for instance. There's no church youth group, sports teams, or any other pastime most adults enjoy, like a trip to the movies, seeing a concert, or outdoor pursuits. (Oh. They go hunting, don't they?) Jim Boob thinks that trotting them out for political appearances is a great idea, too. Uh, no.

I submit that SEX is Jim Boob and MEchelle's God. They spend more time obsessing over sex and sexuality than anything else in their lives.

Agreed- Same with people being upset that Jill is PG so quickly....well, no BC plus, what else does she have to do that is allowed within the Gothard supported home? Nothing. This is what also Pisses me off about everyone (the parents, the press, Derick, Jill herself) referring to Jill as a MW. Jill never completed the necessary steps to become even a lay MW in AR- Jill is a housewife and expectant mother. She secured that MRS and now she is greatly limited/restricted by her Gothard belief system.

[FreeHannie!]

To me, it seems that Courting would be even more devastating than dating with the potential to be more hurtful because a lot of times you may go out on a date with someone and you both realize after a couple of dates that you aren't right for each other. You don't even necessarily feel any hurt and can even remain friends, but your deeper values aren't in sync or whatever and that's okay. That's how you learn more about yourself, what you want and even more importantly, what you DON'T want! But in Courting it's almost assumed by everyone it'll lead to marriage from the start and if it doesn't it's a huge almost-scandel with the associated humilation and I can't imagine how uncomfortable it would be if you realized after a month or so that you don't want to marry them. Everyone asking every ten seconds what you think of each other and basically having to tell someone who thinks you are heading towards marriage that you don't feel the same or like them enough to marry them. I think that is way more humiliating than dating for a few months when marriage is unlikely to even be mentioned.

I agree. I actually wonder if Ben and Jessa felt a lot of pressure to 'go through with it' when it seemed like their personalities were not completely compatible because no way was Boob going to have his daughter in a broken courtship and like we saw from how upset Zach Bates was, a broken courtship is still a broken heart, which is a normal part of life.

I'm actually glad I've had failed relationships in my life because they've given me a better sense and understanding of what I want in a relationship. Of course....no one cares what fundie girls want.

[BrownieMomma]

Sometimes I wonder if JB and M did the deed before marriage.

They reduce EVERYTHING to physical intimacy. Their kids are so limited in so many other areas, yet all they seem to care about is that one element, physical purity. My hubs and I are both products of RC homes and schooling. In his all male HS, one of the priests infamous line was "you thought, you did it." Of course for the hubs that meant he may as well do it- Organized religion, not for the faint of heart.

I am sure those Duggars kids are "thinking" about doing , just like all other kids do-

That's what I suspect, that they did it before marriage. And Michelle probably got to some base with some other guy before she met JB and he's never gonna get over it because she was his first at everything.

[BrownieMomma]

Hijack: This reminds me of a line from one of George Carlin's famous routines: "If you say to yourself, 'I'm gonna go down to 42nd St. and commit a mortal sin,' save your car fare--you did it, man!"

This is probably the thing about the Duggars that confuses me most--if you date, you're "giving away pieces of your heart", but it's okay to have a gazillion kids because "Love doesn't divide, it multiplies." So which is it? :think:

That's the tag line for Sister Wives.

[DGayle]

I never heard all this about how courtship is supposed to protect someone from heartbreak or heartache, and I knew about courtship long before the Duggars rolled it out.

It's supposed to improve the chances of being in a good relationship. It's supposed to provide a way for two people to explore getting to know one another and getting to know their families, without the false bond of sexual activity.

It's to protect against pregnancy, and to a lesser extent, disease.

It's to protect against viewing sex callously, as merely a feel-good exercise, rather than a holy act between husband and wife.

They call it "guarding your heart," which means protection against being hurt. You court to "guard your heart."

www.enjoysimpleliving.com/christian-courting.html

armedmagazine.com/2013/03/guard-your-heart-boundaries-in-courtship/

This has something very interesting:

www.courtshipnow.com/Questionhtml/courtshipqandapa.html

One way they guarded each other's heart was to communicate to each other in a way that anyone else could have listened in on their conversations or read their emails back and forth with each other.

That page also admits that "guarding your heart" doesn't mean you're guaranteed to have no hurt, but then goes on to say

But we can control how we ACT on those feelings and in that way, we can guard our hearts, because guarding your heart means to protect yourselves from "regrets"!

That page also hints at reaching a point where you can talk privately, but the Duggars and others like them keep it to the level of "don't say what you can't say in front of family so you can guard your heart" until after the wedding ceremony has already happened.

The problem with "getting to know one another and getting to know their families, without the false bond of sexual activity" is that you really don't get to know each other at all. Imagine trying to discuss what you hope to get from life in front of other people. Private conversations, even when they don't involve talking about sex, are a lot more open and intimate than when talking in front of other people.

Sexual compatibility is important, though fundies think women should shut up and lay back whenever their owners want it. How awful.

I do believe that people are far more likely to marry, or continue some kind of relationship, with someone with whom there is a sexual bond when really the relationship itself is not that good.

If a relationship is really bad, then sex isn't going to be enough to keep people together.

[Coco]

and, if kids court around the parents don't have as much power in choosing the type of partner they would prefer. And the newlyweds might realize later that dad's choice was the wrong type of person. Limiting their experiences gives the parents more assurance that the kids will be too ignorant to know when they are in a crappy relationship permanently. Plus more dating partners could lead to comparisons and disappointments after marriage.

So, they just opt out thinking that's going to be a good thing in the long run. It's just another example of one-size-fits-all parenting. They're too distracted by the herd to be available to coach every kid though relationships.

[Toothfairy]

Emotional purity is just stupid. What the heck does that means? You can't control how you feel about someone. Crushes are normal. Dating is normal. Heartbreak as painful as it is is normal. If you court someone that means you probably have feelings for them. So what exactly are you guarding? Does anyone care about having a full heart for your spouse? Does it matter? It seems to me that these parents are trying to prevent normal development that everyone goes through in their kids. They're just making it worse.

[Toothfairy]

and, if kids court around the parents don't have as much power in choosing the type of partner they would prefer. And the newlyweds might realize later that dad's choice was the wrong type of person. Limiting their experiences gives the parents more assurance that the kids will be too ignorant to know when they are in a crappy relationship permanently. Plus more dating partners could lead to comparisons and disappointments after marriage.

So, they just opt out thinking that's going to be a good thing in the long run. It's just another example of one-size-fits-all parenting. They're too distracted by the herd to be available to coach every kid though relationships.

But these fundies parents choose each other... And no one should feel unhappy in their relationship. My goodness even arranged marriages in certain cultures are better than fundie courtships