Courtship & JB's Spiel About How It Avoids Heartache

[LongDogMom]

You know both Jim Bob and Michelle have gone on about how courtship avoids heartache and giving away pieces of your heart to the wrong person, etc. but that isn't really valid unless the courtship is successful. I mean, what if they start a courtship and don't like each other? Or one does but not the other. That leads to at least one person being very hurt.

 

The idea that courtship prevents heartache is ridiculous really. You are putting an awful lot of pressure on the couple that it is God's plan and the one S/He's chosen to them as their perfect mate or whatever, so I imagine it might be difficult to say you don't want to marry the person, especially if it's been a few months, or worse...everyone else loves them (parents, etc.).

 

Sometimes being with the wrong person a few times helps one know what they don't want in their forever mate. Do they all just want someone like their father? I know they say that, but do you think they really mean it?

 

I wonder how many Fundies get into a courtship and end up married because they felt they couldn't back out, especially if their parents loved the person and felt they were a perfect match!

[browncoatslytherin]

joseph maxwell has experience in failed courtships :P so does other fundies. i had always wondered the same thing, myself. to me, logically, a failed courtship should hurt worse than a failed boyfriend, just because you go into a courtship expecting marriage, whereas you don't always do so with a boyfriend.

[Georgiana]

joseph maxwell has experience in failed courtships :P so does other fundies. i had always wondered the same thing, myself. to me, logically, a failed courtship should hurt worse than a failed boyfriend, just because you go into a courtship expecting marriage, whereas you don't always do so with a boyfriend.

Kelly Bates was fairly open about the pain associated with Zach's failed courtship. It was actually to the point of where even leghumpers were questioning how courtship could be said to have "protected" Zach if he was still going through all this pain.

To give the Bates some credit, the courtship model changed in their house after that. It really became more "dating with a purpose" as they could no longer claim that courtship itself could protect the individuals against heart ache.

[SassyPants]

Kelly Bates was fairly open about the pain associated with Zach's failed courtship. It was actually to the point of where even leghumpers were questioning how courtship could be said to have "protected" Zach if he was still going through all this pain.

To give the Bates some credit, the courtship model changed in their house after that. It really became more "dating with a purpose" as they could no longer claim that courtship itself could protect the individuals against heart ache.

The perfect example of learning from an experience and adapting based on that knowledge-

[BrownieMomma]

I never heard all this about how courtship is supposed to protect someone from heartbreak or heartache, and I knew about courtship long before the Duggars rolled it out.

It's supposed to improve the chances of being in a good relationship. It's supposed to provide a way for two people to explore getting to know one another and getting to know their families, without the false bond of sexual activity.

It's to protect against pregnancy, and to a lesser extent, disease.

It's to protect against viewing sex callously, as merely a feel-good exercise, rather than a holy act between husband and wife.

A failed courtship is going to hurt at least one of the people, most likely. I've just never come across this idea that it protects against hurt somehow. I am thinking that is taking a bit of life on its own here at FJ, and isn't really part of what most fundies think of when considering courtship for their children.

I do believe that people are far more likely to marry, or continue some kind of relationship, with someone with whom there is a sexual bond when really the relationship itself is not that good.

[browncoatslytherin]

I never heard all this about how courtship is supposed to protect someone from heartbreak or heartache, and I knew about courtship long before the Duggars rolled it out.

It's supposed to improve the chances of being in a good relationship. It's supposed to provide a way for two people to explore getting to know one another and getting to know their families, without the false bond of sexual activity.

It's to protect against pregnancy, and to a lesser extent, disease.

It's to protect against viewing sex callously, as merely a feel-good exercise, rather than a holy act between husband and wife.

A failed courtship is going to hurt at least one of the people, most likely. I've just never come across this idea that it protects against hurt somehow. I am thinking that is taking a bit of life on its own here at FJ, and isn't really part of what most fundies think of when considering courtship for their children.

I do believe that people are far more likely to marry, or continue some kind of relationship, with someone with whom there is a sexual bond when really the relationship itself is not that good.

i know the duggars have spoken about that specifically as a reason why their children will court and not date (which is totally their children's choice, at least we're supposed to believe). they mentioned that plus "baggage from previous relationships", which again, if you have a failed courtship, wouldn't that be baggage, too?

eta: as a teen, i was at several "purity" conference thingies (i don't really know what to call them lol) and they talked about "giving away pieces of your heart" by dating, and wouldn't you want to save your whole heart for your spouse? which, one i believe that's a flawed principle because i don't believe love to be as limited as that, and two if you have a failed courtship, wouldn't that be a piece of your heart given away? i don't know. i think some fundies just cling to ideas even when backed into a corner.

[toejamflipflop]

Jimbob is full of shit.

[musikat]

The idea of the courtship protecting against heartache is some straight up Duggar family B.S. I mean it lessens multiple heartaches because you're probably not going to start as many courtships as you would date people who have no intentions of being with you, but if your courtship fails at least one party is going to be feeling the sting.

I grew up "dating with a purpose" and have since moved on to the real world. I was devastated when the relationship ended, as was my fiance-I mean we were at the point of an engagement, which is a huge deal to have a relationship end at that point. Ultimately we kept progressing the relationship because we felt it's what we needed to do, not necessarily what was right for us. I'm glad that we ended up calling it off before the wedding but that didn't make it hurt any less. In fact both of us were hurting for a long time afterwards and had a lot of guilt about the entire relationship.

If young people choose to enter courtships and guard their intimacy, fine. But pushing it on them and guilting them into this way of believing only makes things worse if things don't work out.

[grandmadugger]

JB's BS about courtships irks me. It's also one of the few things I adore about Ben's dad. Nothing makes me happier than him calling JB out on that BS on his blog.

[BrownieMomma]

i know the duggars have spoken about that specifically as a reason why their children will court and not date (which is totally their children's choice, at least we're supposed to believe). they mentioned that plus "baggage from previous relationships", which again, if you have a failed courtship, wouldn't that be baggage, too?

eta: as a teen, i was at several "purity" conference thingies (i don't really know what to call them lol) and they talked about "giving away pieces of your heart" by dating, and wouldn't you want to save your whole heart for your spouse? which, one i believe that's a flawed principle because i don't believe love to be as limited as that, and two if you have a failed courtship, wouldn't that be a piece of your heart given away? i don't know. i think some fundies just cling to ideas even when backed into a corner.

I think I must tune them out a lot when JB&M start in about courting. I'm sure you are right, I just don't remember it being said to protect them against hurt.

Yes I would think heartbreak from courtship breaks off pieces of your heart just as a failed dating relationship but maybe depending how far into it you are.

I personally think there are good principles in this idea of courtship, but I'm also kinda truly horrified about the whole SAHD thing and this idea of such rigid rules and chaperoning of people who are well into their 20's is ridiculous.

[TXGirlInAMaterialWorld]

The Bates can actually admit when something is not working for their family and change it. We could see the TTH going up in flames and the Duggars would just stand their smiling and say how blessed they are.....

[BrownieMomma]

The Bates can actually admit when something is not working for their family and change it. We could see the TTH going up in flames and the Duggars would just stand their smiling and say how blessed they are.....

What did the Bates change? I know Zach was courting that singer, who ditched him for a career. At least I think that's the story.

[acat7]

Th

What did the Bates change? I know Zach was courting that singer, who ditched him for a career. At least I think that's the story.

The Bates were incredibly strict on the Zach/ Sarah Reith courtship. It was a total no touch courtship. Many have speculated that it kept Zach and Sarah from forming the level of comfort needed to progress in their relationship. Kelly spoke very candidly about how hurt Zach was when the courtship ended, since obviously, he thought that she was the woman he was going to marry. Courtships are usually a "done deal" in the fundie world, and then it failed for him. That's gotta hurt. She actually said that JD Duggar was really there for him at the time, which is hard to imagine from what I've seen of JD, but that just goes to show that sometimes people are more than what meets the eye.

Following that experience, Kelly said that they let the couples make their own courtship boundaries and it looks as if she's telling the truth- unlike the Duggars who totally lie when they say that. They changed their chaperones to mean" within eyesight, but not necessarily within earshot". Erin and Chad chose to have a "no touch" courtship, and hold hands at engagement. Alyssa and John chose to hold hands while they were courting, and front-hugged a lot (go Alyssa!). Zach and Whitney also looked like they decided to hold hands in courtship. Michaella and Brandon are just courting and they definitely hold hands, as a matter of fact, in the pictures Kelly posts, they look awful snuggly on the couch. Way closer than a Duggar would allow.

[BrownieMomma]

Th

The Bates were incredibly strict on the Zach/ Sarah Reith courtship. It was a total no touch courtship. Many have speculated that it kept Zach and Sarah from forming the level of comfort needed to progress in their relationship. Kelly spoke very candidly about how hurt Zach was when the courtship ended, since obviously, he thought that she was the woman he was going to marry. Courtships are usually a "done deal" in the fundie world, and then it failed for him. That's gotta hurt. She actually said that JD Duggar was really there for him at the time, which is hard to imagine from what I've seen of JD, but that just goes to show that sometimes people are more than what meets the eye.

Following that experience, Kelly said that they let the couples make their own courtship boundaries and it looks as if she's telling the truth- unlike the Duggars who totally lie when they say that. They changed their chaperones to mean" within eyesight, but not necessarily within earshot". Erin and Chad chose to have a "no touch" courtship, and hold hands at engagement. Alyssa and John chose to hold hands while they were courting, and front-hugged a lot (go Alyssa!). Zach and Whitney also looked like they decided to hold hands in courtship. Michaella and Brandon are just courting and they definitely hold hands, as a matter of fact, in the pictures Kelly posts, they look awful snuggly on the couch. Way closer than a Duggar would allow.

Ahh. Got it. Thanks for clarifying. :)

[CearaQC]

I think it's kind of sad...

With as much reading, highlighting, writing notes, and discussing of the bible, that they should believe there are limits to the human heart.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8

Him saying ''giving pieces away'' seems to imply you only have so much and if you give some away, you're less than 100% - forever. That's how it comes across to me, anyways.

From a spiritual perspective, no one runs out of love.

One of my favorite lines in a film dialog (Mansfield Park, with Johnny Miller):

''There are as many forms of love as there are moments in time.''

From a Christian perspective, if someone hurts you, you're supposed to forgive, no? What about what I was taught as a kid to ''turn the other cheek''?

[OodOnTheLoo]

This explains why Michelle can only have love for one child, the baby of the family, at any given moment.

They are truly full of it. It's about being terrified your children will have premarital sex.

[FreeHannie!]

I get not wanting your 14 year old off drinking and having sex, but these people are crazy if they truly think the worst thing their 18+ child can do is have sex before marriage.

[FreeHannie!]

Th

The Bates were incredibly strict on the Zach/ Sarah Reith courtship. It was a total no touch courtship. Many have speculated that it kept Zach and Sarah from forming the level of comfort needed to progress in their relationship. Kelly spoke very candidly about how hurt Zach was when the courtship ended, since obviously, he thought that she was the woman he was going to marry. Courtships are usually a "done deal" in the fundie world, and then it failed for him. That's gotta hurt. She actually said that JD Duggar was really there for him at the time, which is hard to imagine from what I've seen of JD, but that just goes to show that sometimes people are more than what meets the eye.

Following that experience, Kelly said that they let the couples make their own courtship boundaries and it looks as if she's telling the truth- unlike the Duggars who totally lie when they say that. They changed their chaperones to mean" within eyesight, but not necessarily within earshot". Erin and Chad chose to have a "no touch" courtship, and hold hands at engagement. Alyssa and John chose to hold hands while they were courting, and front-hugged a lot (go Alyssa!). Zach and Whitney also looked like they decided to hold hands in courtship. Michaella and Brandon are just courting and they definitely hold hands, as a matter of fact, in the pictures Kelly posts, they look awful snuggly on the couch. Way closer than a Duggar would allow.

And there is also this: http://bates-family-photos.tumblr.com/p ... ng-awesome

Which also gives me the impression the Bates kids are given a bit more freedom in choosing their own courtship rules. Unlike the Duggars, where I don't believe for a second the set their 'own standards', Uterus and Boob do.

[BrownieMomma]

All this control is giving me a headache. For reals.

I try to be a diligent parent. I'm fairly computer/tech savvy and I make it clear to my kids that they don't have any expectation of privacy when it comes to technology. Now, if they want to write in private journals that stay in their rooms, that privacy is okay. What goes out and comes in via technology is a different matter.

My kids are 14 and 16 and I just don't monitor them so closely. I am astounded again at how controlling all this fundie-ism is, and I am thinking yet again, what about FREE WILL? The free will God gives all of us to make choices and decisions, at what point do fundie kids get free will? When they get married???

There have been an unwise decision or two on my daughter's part. She nearly lost her spot on the cheer squad at school but she learned a good good lesson about many things through that. She went through a dark, bleak period, mainly due to a boy, but we got through that and she's been her bright and happy self ever since.

I do a lot of things for which the Duggars and their ilk would roundly condemn me. Heck even people at my church if they knew. Like, I bought wine coolers for Jill's wedding and I asked my daughter if she wanted to play the drinking game with me. If my church people knew that, they would have an absolute stroke but my thing as a parent is not make my kids follow a bunch of rules but to teach them how to manage themselves and judge situations and know what to do while holding to certain basic principles - honor and respect your own self, be kind to others, etc.

I use my kids phones all the time. Every day I pick them up because they have candy crush on their phones and I play it lol. Occasionally I read their messages. They know that is going to happen. I know they can delete messages they don't really want me to see. I look at their camera roll.

I just cannot imagine having their texts read by someone else first. I get experimenting and learning and changing and growing. I guess the Bates seem to do that. I just don't get how control is exerted and such a lack of trust. And such a lack of willingness to let kids try and fail. Better to make bad decisions while at home and still under the love and care and guidance of your parents.

[SassyPants]

Sometimes I wonder if JB and M did the deed before marriage.

They reduce EVERYTHING to physical intimacy. Their kids are so limited in so many other areas, yet all they seem to care about is that one element, physical purity. My hubs and I are both products of RC homes and schooling. In his all male HS, one of the priests infamous line was "you thought, you did it." Of course for the hubs that meant he may as well do it- Organized religion, not for the faint of heart.

I am sure those Duggars kids are "thinking" about doing , just like all other kids do-

[Toothfairy]

Sometimes I wonder if JB and M did the deed before marriage.

They reduce EVERYTHING to physical intimacy. Their kids are so limited in so many other areas, yet all they seem to care about is that one element, physical purity. My hubs and I are both products of RC homes and schooling. In his all male HS, one of the priests infamous line was "you thought, you did it." Of course for the hubs that meant he may as well do it- Organized religion, not for the faint of heart.

I am sure those Duggars kids are "thinking" about doing , just like all other kids do-

Even if they did, they still married each other. They aren't damaged, they still live together and share a bed.

[SassyPants]

Even if they did, they still married each other. They aren't damaged, they still live together and share a bed.

Maybe THEY (because of Gothard indoctrination) believe they ARE damaged- or maybe just one of them had other experiences...

[Toothfairy]

What fundie would even go near a Maxwell Boy. I'm not saying it's his kids fault for failed courtships but Steve's. He has so more control and some much rules in place I think a fundie woman and her family would be turned off by that.

And fundie courtships are much more difficult and emotional than regular dating. You can't tell me there aren't feelings involved if you courted someone. So much is on the line on a courtship that these kids just can't court or date for fun. I think they do experience heartbreak worse since that person was suppose to be the person whom god sent to you to marry and spend the rest of your life with. People who date get their hearts broken but there isn't so much on the line when dating.

[SassyPants]

What fundie would even go near a Maxwell Boy. I'm not saying it's his kids fault for failed courtships but Steve's. He has so more control and some much rules in place I think a fundie woman and her family would be turned off by that.

And fundie courtships are much more difficult and emotional than regular dating. You can't tell me there aren't feelings involved if you courted someone. So much is on the line on a courtship that these kids just can't court or date for fun. I think they do experience heartbreak worse since that person was suppose to be the person whom god sent to you to marry and spend the rest of your life with. People who date get their hearts broken but there isn't so much on the line when dating.

Steve is horrible and I doubt those girls are getting married. His adult kids are infantized which is just criminal.

The Duggars are using their kids to make money. It's a different kind of mind screw.

I just do not get a devoutly religious feel about the Duggars. Beyond the physical purity on their wedding days, I just do not see much religion or religious tenets espoused. I have heard that TLC dilutes/edits the religiosity in order to attract a wider viewing audience, maybe that is the case.

[smittykins]

In his all male HS, one of the priests infamous line was "you thought, you did it."

Hijack: This reminds me of a line from one of George Carlin's famous routines: "If you say to yourself, 'I'm gonna go down to 42nd St. and commit a mortal sin,' save your car fare--you did it, man!"

This is probably the thing about the Duggars that confuses me most--if you date, you're "giving away pieces of your heart", but it's okay to have a gazillion kids because "Love doesn't divide, it multiplies." So which is it? :think: