Chaviva's husband can't return to the US for months

[DGayle]

Not anti-semitic. I quoted people who are jewish, INCLUDING rabbis. They're the ones talking about how it's expensive to be Jewish, and if it's anti-semitic to be shocked that you pretty much have to be rich to be Jewish (remember, THE JEWISH PEOPLE IN THOSE COMMENT THREADS ARE TALKING ABOUT HOW IT IS EXPENSIVE), then that's how you see it. I see it as responding with shock that you have to have money to be Jewish, and I do see it as appalling that you have to pay admission. Most of the churches I grew up going to didn't pass collection plates. There were boxes where people could put money any day of the week. Why can't they do something like that, instead of making people pay membership fees?

Tithes at churches are what you can afford, instead of a ticket price that you have to ask for an exemption from.

We don't call it anti-Christian to have a problem with how some people practice Christianity (who has a problem with calling certain Christian groups cults?), so why is is anti-semitic to be horrified at literal membership fees and the high cost of being a practicing Jew when members of that religion are stating that stuff themselves?

[Johanna25]

It costs money to run any church and most congregations expect regular support, at the level you can afford, once you become a member. Most congregations will make accommodations for poor and members on fixed incomes and most will welcome guests and potential members, but all need support from their regular attendees. Granted, they have few ways to require support beyond social pressure, but that can be strong. I'm sure synogogue boards adjust their fees and give free tickets to those in need, but they expect those who are able to pay a fair share. Orthodox Jewish people are some of the poorest around but they devote a very large part of their income to support their lifestyle and the sect.

When I lived in Germany I was told that the state collects support for the churches through the tax system. If you declare a religious membership a percentage is added to your bill for the church. At that time most older folks were members, but many younger folks who didn't feel the social pressure to belong did not join or pay.

I have also read a lot of comments on chat boards, from Jews and rabbis, about how expensive it is to be Jewish. In discussing the Orthodox college outreach programs, they suggest that potential converts ought to be warned of the costs.

[Johanna25]

Another thought about high conversion fees. Studying psychology you learn about cognitive dissonance. If you pay a high price for something that you don't value, you feel uncomfortable. To reduce that dissonance you start to believe more strongly in its value. So the higher the price you pay or the less the reward, the more you will believe in something. It's the purpose behind fraternity initiations and rites of passage. It's also a good excuse for psychologists to charge high rates.

[2xx1xy1JD]

DGayle wrote:

What's important to those rabbis, converting souls, or money? If you believe not being a member means hell, then it's cruel to condemn someone to eternal fire because they don't have enough money.

Quite frankly, converting souls is NOT important to most rabbis. Judaism allows conversion, but does not actively seek converts.

Judaism does NOT teach that non-Jews go to hell. It teaches that non-Jews have far fewer commandments to follow, and they are judged in relation to those. If anything, converts increase their potential to sin by obligating themselves to observe more rules.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Re synagogues, fees and tickets:

The only services that I've seen ever require tickets are the High Holiday services. The rest of the year it's not required. Non-members can attend services.

My synagogue used to have a totally open-door policy, that changed after the Mumbai attack. There is now entry by security code during the week, and a police officer at the door on Shabbat. Any bags are checked, and anyone they don't know could be questioned. When visiting synagogues overseas, I've brought my passport with me and gone through security checks.

Many places offer supplemental services for non-members on High Holidays.

Sometimes, the tickets also act as a form of crowd control. A ticket designates your seat, and the services are long.

The issue of fees, tickets, etc. comes up regularly. Different groups use different models. Chabad tends to lean toward a more open-door policy, won't turn anyone away and counts on being able to get people in the door first and hope to attract their support later. Many Reform synagogues knew that Bar/Bat Mitzvahs were important to families, so they'd require a minimum period of membership before you could have a Bar/Bat Mitzvah there. I've seen some vicious, and frankly self-serving, criticism of Chabad from Reform leaders over the open-door Bar/Bat Mitzvah policy, and even a Reform criticism of having a Bar/Bat Mitzvah in Israel.

[August]

I have never, ever seen a synagogue turn someone away at High Holy Days. Every shul I've ever attended had a way for people to get free tickets if money was an issue. All of them.

The only instances in which I could imagine someone being turned away for not having a ticket are a couple of places I've been overseas where security is an issue, and they won't let anyone in who's not a member of the community. And in those cases, you e-mail the synagogue beforehand, explain your situation, and they'll tell you how to get tickets (and accommodate you if price is an issue). High Holy Days tickets are sold and membership dues exist because unlike churches, synagogues cannot take up a collection every week, since you can't handle money on Shabbat. This is why things like synagogue dues and High Holy Days tickets exist, although I've always seen High Holy Days tickets included with membership dues, myself. You do not have to be a member of a synagogue to attend services there, and every year around High Holy Days, there are all kinds of places inviting anyone and everyone to come and worship, tickets or no. I was given tickets to my shul's High Holy Days services back in the States before I was a member- it was a complete non-issue. I've also attended services as a visitor in multiple countries, and again, getting access to services was not a problem- I just e-mailed them a week or two before and asked about attending.

A lot of the stuff being said here about "rich Jews" is blatantly anti-Semitic (besides being untrue- a huge swath of the most Orthodox Jews are incredibly poor, as it happens, for a variety of reasons). Have to say, I didn't ever think I'd encounter that kind of garbage on Free Jinger. Fucking gross.

Criticism is not racism. Pages and pages and pages of criticism of stupid christian fundies is all good, but barely a page of criticism of stupid jewish fundies and it's suddenly anti-semitic?

I tried to watch The Interview last night (juvenile un-funny sexist bullshit that it was) as a fuck you to King Jong Un and his tantrum about being mocked. This reaction reminds me of his reaction to being criticised. Adults respond to criticism point by point, children throw a tantrum and accuse people of bigotry to shut them up.

[sparkles]

I do a lot of graphic design work for a number of synagogues–Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, as well as a few Chabads. With the exception of the Chabads (which in this area at least–extremely wealthy–are supported in large part by major donors and don't require people to pay to attend services), EVERYTHING costs money. Annual dues, building funds, fees for bar/bat mitzvah training, religious school and preschool tuition, fees to publish names in the Book of Remembrance, ongoing donations throughout the year, fundraisers, dues for social organizations like Sisterhood and Brotherhood–nothing seems to be free unless it's underwritten. (In all cases, High Holy Day tickets are free to members in good standing as part of their dues. Most Chabads still have an open door policy as long as you register beforehand.)

Does it seem outrageous at times? Absolutely. But how else do you expect to keep a synagogue operating? There's no central governing body dispensing funds. Charging for membership and other related programs is the only way. And to my knowledge, none of the synagogues I work with have ever turned away someone in need. Dues are often pro-rated or free if you can show financial hardship and two of the synagogues I work for offer gift memberships. Everything possible is done so that people who can't afford the fees aren't penalized.

[Idolatry]

I had no idea it costs thousands of dollars to convert. Whoa. Mind blown. And it's "anti-semitic" to be shocked by that? Is that supposed to be normal or something?

[August]

I had no idea it costs thousands of dollars to convert. Whoa. Mind blown. And it's "anti-semitic" to be shocked by that? Is that supposed to be normal or something?

Most religions are all about cash and power. Ever toured the Vatican? Bought a forgiveness? Mormons have to tithe 10%, many fundie churches have membership, and when I used to go to church with a friend's family as a child apparently the envelope which went into the collection plate had identifying info on it. But apparently mentioning all that makes me anti-something bigoted? I think the least scammish thing is charging for private rabbi lessons.

[FaustianSlip]

Not anti-semitic. I quoted people who are jewish, INCLUDING rabbis.

Well, bless your heart. If you're quoting your "Jewish friends," why, that's all right, then! I expect that you also use the N-word and justify it by citing your many "black friends," huh?

If people can't figure out why going on about all of the "rich Jews" and "private clubs" is hugely problematic, then I don't think any amount of explaining is going to help.

And no, it doesn't typically cost thousands of dollars to convert. If you had actually read Chaviva's post and the comments below it, you would have seen that it's precisely because the cost in Denver is so high that she was complaining about the Denver Orthodox community's specific conversion process. But it's much more exciting to talk about all of us amazingly rich Jews who are out to bilk non-Jews out of as much money as possible before we give them the keys to the banking industry, right?

I had no idea it costs thousands of dollars to convert. Whoa. Mind blown.

You probably had no idea because it doesn't typically cost "thousands of dollars" to convert to Judaism. Which was the whole point of Chaviva's post- that Denver's fees, specifically, were particularly high for no apparent reason. Even in cases where the convert was a guy and needed a hatafat dam brit, most of the conversions I know of maxed out around a thousand dollars, usually far, far less. This isn't including the cost of things like buying two sets of dishes or tefillin or other ritual items, because all observant Jews have to shoulder those expenses, not just converts.

My conversion, which took around a year, cost about $500. Around two hundred of that was a voluntary donation that I made to my rabbi's discretionary fund (which no one asked me to make, just to be clear- I donated the money because I wanted to). The rest paid for an intro to Judaism class and the mikvah fee, and the class fees I was able to pay in installments without any issues at all. I didn't join the synagogue, nor was I pressured to do so, because I moved out of town shortly after my conversion. The entire year I was going to that synagogue, during my conversion process, no one pressured me to pay any kind of dues or join after the process was complete or anything of the sort. I was extended Shabbos and yom tov hospitality by families in the community with no expectation of payment or anything of the kind- usually, I brought a bottle of wine or something as a "thank you."

I stand by my assessment that it's really fucking disgusting (and telling) that the immediate reaction of a number of people here (non-Jews who appear to have little or no personal experience with the larger Jewish community- well, beyond their anonymous Jewish friends, of course) was to jump at the opportunity to paint Jews as money grubbing, greedy bastards who are just out to scam people out of their cash and wring their hands about how awful it all is. Classy. Really classy.

[FaustianSlip]

I think the least scammish thing is charging for private rabbi lessons.

Frankly, I pay more than the $20/week Chaviva quoted to take fiddle lessons every week. I wasn't obliged to pay my rabbi for meeting with me or tutoring me, but twenty bucks for an hour or two of instruction is eminently reasonable. Some of the other prices she quotes make no sense to me (why do they need to bring a rabbi out from Queens?), but the tutoring one completely misses the mark.

[FaustianSlip]

I grew up in an area of the states where there are plenty of Jews, and I can't remember any anti-Semitic events, yet there was always a police officer stationed outside during High Holidays. It's just...part of being Jewish, awful as that is.

Weirdly, my shul in the States never had a security guard or anything, but every shul I've visited abroad has. And they question everyone, even longstanding members. It's annoying sometimes, but particularly in light of the kosher supermarket shooting in Paris and other recent, anti-Semitic attacks, I understand why the policy exists.

Who would pay for the upkeep of the synagogue if not the members of that synagogue? I know some Christians tithe; is that also deemed offensive? And, serious question, how *do* Catholic churches pay for the upkeep of the church and pay the clergy? It can't all be the collection plate, surely? What about Protestant groups?

The people concern trolling about how awful Jews are and how much we must love money for having the temerity to charge synagogue dues are, to be blunt, full of shit. I grew up Episcopalian. Every week, a plate was literally passed around the church for people to put money in. So if you're broke and can't afford to donate, you can sit there, publicly, with your coreligionists watching as you don't put any cash in the offering plate. I'm sure that's not humiliating. Every church I've ever visited (Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran) did the same, passing offering plates around during the service. This won't work in a Jewish context, because Jewish law explicitly forbids handling money on Shabbos or holidays. Anyway, in my childhood Episcopal church, there was also a yearly pledge drive, in which members of the congregation were encouraged to "pledge" a particular amount of money that they felt they could donate over the course of that year. Strangely, I don't see anyone getting all scandalized at that, even as they're ranting about us moneygrubbing Jews. I wonder why that is?

The Catholic church asks for donations for Mass intentions, lighting a candle, buying rosaries, et cetera, in addition to taking up collections like other churches. The Mormon Church requires its members to tithe ten percent of their income (which is what tithing is- it's specifically about giving ten percent, not just whatever you want) or be denied access to the temple. Baptists and a number of other denominations also strongly encourage tithing, sometimes denying membership in a church if someone isn't in compliance. A bit of googling reveals that most mosques, at least in the US, also levy membership dues upon their congregations.

It costs money to employ a rabbi, keep a building functional, buy food and drinks (kosher ones, usually) for kiddush after services, run a Hebrew school, et cetera, et cetera. The lights and the heat aren't free of charge, and unlike the Catholic church, there is no fabulously wealthy, international apparatus doling out money to every synagogue and Jewish day school. I suppose we could all just stand there waiting for G-d to drop a winning lottery ticket on the bimah, but the fact is that if you want to be a part of a community- any community- you're probably going to need to contribute something.

[Idolatry]

Most religions are all about cash and power. Ever toured the Vatican? Bought a forgiveness? Mormons have to tithe 10%, many fundie churches have membership, and when I used to go to church with a friend's family as a child apparently the envelope which went into the collection plate had identifying info on it. But apparently mentioning all that makes me anti-something bigoted? I think the least scammish thing is charging for private rabbi lessons.

I'm no fan of Mormon financials either, but based on my experience I doubt they would require any money from a person in her situation, they might even pay her power bill, and the casserole brigade would be there in force. Where's the casserole brigade??? Isn't that the whole point of belonging to a group like this?

She has to buy special food, special clothes, live in some special neighborhood, send her kid to some special daycare. All the things she was complaining about three years ago, and yet she chose to do them anyway. And now she's complaining about paying her bills. Maybe the commenters were right, and you shouldn't do this if you can't afford it. I don't understand the point of making a conscious choice as a grown adult (breaking immigration policies, choosing a religion with expansive rules) and then complaining about that choice's known consequences.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Fucking outrageous. That makes it a private club. How do they have a religious tax exemption?

I, an atheist, can walk into any church for any mass, and have a seat, without ever paying a penny. My god, Christianity just jumped up a few notches in my eyes. You can't be homeless or poor and be Jewish, but you can be homeless and poor and be Christian, and only the bad churches will close their doors to you.

FWIW, you'll get a less hostile response by asking first if this is true, and if there is more to the story, than immediately jumping to conclusions.

Anyway, most things in the Jewish community in general, in practice, operate on a pay-what-you-can basis. Those which money are expected to donate more, and provide services to those in need.

You can certainly be homeless and Jewish. That would describe several members of my old downtown synagogue, the Anshei Minsk (which I will mention by name because it's a great place and the very opposite of what you describe]. Their doors were open to anyone. The first time we went, we were invited to stay for Friday night dinner, no payment required. They offered Friday night dinners and Saturday lunches on a suggested donation/pay-what-you-can basis. It was a way to offer hospitality to people visiting (the synagogue was right near several big hospitals so they frequently got patients' families), and a way to provide meals with dignity to poorer members of the community. When we did eventually become members, the fees were extremely low. The flip side is that the synagogue ran a serious deficit and the building, while historic and beautiful, was in need of serious maintenance.

Most Jewish communities of a decent size will have community organizations to provide services. This is partially a holdover from the fact that many Jewish communities historically had some limited types of self-government and mutual assistance societies. When they came to North America, the mutual assistance societies were established here. If you arrived at Ellis Island as a penniless immigrant from Minsk, you found others from Minsk to help you out and it was agreed that people from that town would help each other as needed.

Today, as well as fundraising by individual organizations, there is also an umbrella organization (United Jewish Appeal or UJA) that raises money to distribute to various programs and organizations.

Some of the organizations here (and I'd expect that similar ones would exist in most of the bigger North American Jewish communities) include:

- Jewish hospitals (which serve the general public too)

- Jewish Family and Child Services (foster homes, family counseling, crisis services, etc.)

- Jewish Immigrant Aid Services

- Jewish Vocational Services (which also provided services to the general public)

- Tomchei Shabbos (delivery of food for the Sabbath for families in need)

- kosher Meals on Wheels

- CHAI lifeline (help for children with serious illnesses and their families)

- Jewish nursing home

- various subsidized and/or supportive housing for seniors, special needs, etc.

- Free Loan Society (provides interest-free loans)

- various "gemachs", each of which will provide free or very low cost items or services

- educational programs from pre-nursery through the end of high school (tuition is often high, but a large percentage of students get subsidies so it's pay what you can)

- summer camps (again, most offer subsidies)

- special needs school and treatment center

- program for young adults with special needs to develop independent social, self-care and vocation skills

- substance abuse support and counseling

The list goes on...

Yes, IF you pay full price for everything, and if you also donate, it can be expensive to live in a Jewish area, pay for Jewish education, cook for Shabbat and holidays and invite guests over, join a synagogue, etc. We're basically at that phase in our lives right now.

When we first got married, we were at the stage where we got the free or subsidized Shabbat meals at the synagogue, and we ate cheap vegetarian food at home. I accepted a lot of invitations in those days, and try to "pay it forward" by hosting people now.

When we were starving students, we had access to programs that were free or highly subsidized.

[August]

I'm no fan of Mormon financials either, but based on my experience I doubt they would require any money from a person in her situation, they might even pay her power bill, and the casserole brigade would be there in force. Where's the casserole brigade??? Isn't that the whole point of belonging to a group like this?

She has to buy special food, special clothes, live in some special neighborhood, send her kid to some special daycare. All the things she was complaining about three years ago, and yet she chose to do them anyway. And now she's complaining about paying her bills. Maybe the commenters were right, and you shouldn't do this if you can't afford it. I don't understand the point of making a conscious choice as a grown adult (breaking immigration policies, choosing a religion with expansive rules) and then complaining about that choice's known consequences.

Well, she's both a dumbass for choosing such an expensive hobby, and also a dick who's offended all the club she's attending. Would you take her a casserole?

Faustianslip, you have the right idea, but next time leave out the strawman bullshit.

[2xx1xy1JD]

BTW - you guys do know what "kvetching" means, right? She's not writing a "Blissfully zen and content" blog, lol.

[morfydd]

When I lived in Germany I was told that the state collects support for the churches through the tax system. If you declare a religious membership a percentage is added to your bill for the church. At that time most older folks were members, but many younger folks who didn't feel the social pressure to belong did not join or pay.

Actually, if you don't want to pay, but you were already christened in a church, you have to go to the government to formally renounce church membership. Then the church is notified and may decide not to allow you to receive communion, be married in the church, have your kids baptized, etc.

I also hadn't realized the tax was so high (8-9%!!!) or that some synagogues and mosques also use the government tax system, but that's what the Google tells me. On the bright side, there is no Presbyterian church in Germany, so I get to keep my money *and* sleep in... :D

[LucySnowe]

Going back to a topic mentioned earlier, Tablet Magazine just posted an interesting article on being Orthodox and having OCD:

http://tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-re ... e-orthodox

[Ave Maria]

Most religions are all about cash and power. Ever toured the Vatican? Bought a forgiveness? Mormons have to tithe 10%, many fundie churches have membership, and when I used to go to church with a friend's family as a child apparently the envelope which went into the collection plate had identifying info on it. But apparently mentioning all that makes me anti-something bigoted? I think the least scammish thing is charging for private rabbi lessons.

Often the identifying info is so that the church can total it all up at the end of the year and give you a letter stating your total donation so you can write it off on your taxes. So it's actually to help the people out -- at least where we have attended church.

[DGayle]

Interesting that we can be critical of all religions here except Judaism, and if you're critical of something involving the Jewish religion, that makes you an anti-semite racist. Isn't it instead condescending to just pat their heads and look the other way because some feelings might be hurt if someone is critical of some Jewish practices?

If you're a Jewish person and are HURT or OFFENDED over criticism of your religions practices, then you've lost the right to criticize fundies, many who hold their old beliefs and practices to be just as important to them as yours are to you. It's hypocritical to call it fair game to criticize fundies, Muslims, anyone else, but then declare Judaism to be off limits unless someone wants to be called an anti-Semite racism.

Do you even know what anti-semitism is? It's hostility to Jews. Strongly disagreeing with how someone practices their religion, even being disgusted by it, is an opinion, NOT hostility. Hostility is trying to get rid of Judaism, or trying to make Jewish people afraid they'll be harmed if they admit to being Jews. NO ONE is talking about harm or banning Judaism, or using laws to limit the rights of Jewish people. Therefore there is NO anti-semitism going on.

There is nothing more going on than disapproving of all the fees you have to pay to belong to the club. If this is wrong, then it's wrong to criticize the Duggars, Jill and David, and every other fundy too. I'm not going to give any religious group special exemption from criticism.

[Idolatry]

Interesting that we can be critical of all religions here except Judaism, and if you're critical of something involving the Jewish religion, that makes you an anti-semite racist. Isn't it instead condescending to just pat their heads and look the other way because some feelings might be hurt if someone is critical of some Jewish practices?

If you're a Jewish person and are HURT or OFFENDED over criticism of your religions practices, then you've lost the right to criticize fundies, many who hold their old beliefs and practices to be just as important to them as yours are to you. It's hypocritical to call it fair game to criticize fundies, Muslims, anyone else, but then declare Judaism to be off limits unless someone wants to be called an anti-Semite racism.

Do you even know what anti-semitism is? It's hostility to Jews. Strongly disagreeing with how someone practices their religion, even being disgusted by it, is an opinion, NOT hostility. Hostility is trying to get rid of Judaism, or trying to make Jewish people afraid they'll be harmed if they admit to being Jews. NO ONE is talking about harm or banning Judaism, or using laws to limit the rights of Jewish people. Therefore there is NO anti-semitism going on.

There is nothing more going on than disapproving of all the fees you have to pay to belong to the club. If this is wrong, then it's wrong to criticize the Duggars, Jill and David, and every other fundy too. I'm not going to give any religious group special exemption from criticism.

I too grew up in a patriarchal, financially controlling, educationally isolationist faith with a bunch of stupid rules about dress codes and food. But it wasn't Jewish, so I don't have a cool word to scream racism every time anyone criticizes the Duggars.

The difference is that when I realized how ridiculous all my rules were, I left -- instead of just kvetching about the rules I chose to follow. Maybe if you're a J-slave you could complain. But when you're an adult living on your own, you are responsible for your own decisions. For most people, the point at which you can no longer support your child and follow all the rules would be a clue, no matter what set of rules.

[OkToBeTakei]

FWIW, you'll get a less hostile response by asking first if this is true, and if there is more to the story, than immediately jumping to conclusions.

Anyway, most things in the Jewish community in general, in practice, operate on a pay-what-you-can basis. Those which money are expected to donate more, and provide services to those in need.

You can certainly be homeless and Jewish. That would describe several members of my old downtown synagogue, the Anshei Minsk (which I will mention by name because it's a great place and the very opposite of what you describe]. Their doors were open to anyone. The first time we went, we were invited to stay for Friday night dinner, no payment required. They offered Friday night dinners and Saturday lunches on a suggested donation/pay-what-you-can basis. It was a way to offer hospitality to people visiting (the synagogue was right near several big hospitals so they frequently got patients' families), and a way to provide meals with dignity to poorer members of the community. When we did eventually become members, the fees were extremely low. The flip side is that the synagogue ran a serious deficit and the building, while historic and beautiful, was in need of serious maintenance.

Most Jewish communities of a decent size will have community organizations to provide services. This is partially a holdover from the fact that many Jewish communities historically had some limited types of self-government and mutual assistance societies. When they came to North America, the mutual assistance societies were established here. If you arrived at Ellis Island as a penniless immigrant from Minsk, you found others from Minsk to help you out and it was agreed that people from that town would help each other as needed.

Today, as well as fundraising by individual organizations, there is also an umbrella organization (United Jewish Appeal or UJA) that raises money to distribute to various programs and organizations.

Some of the organizations here (and I'd expect that similar ones would exist in most of the bigger North American Jewish communities) include:

- Jewish hospitals (which serve the general public too)

- Jewish Family and Child Services (foster homes, family counseling, crisis services, etc.)

- Jewish Immigrant Aid Services

- Jewish Vocational Services (which also provided services to the general public)

- Tomchei Shabbos (delivery of food for the Sabbath for families in need)

- kosher Meals on Wheels

- CHAI lifeline (help for children with serious illnesses and their families)

- Jewish nursing home

- various subsidized and/or supportive housing for seniors, special needs, etc.

- Free Loan Society (provides interest-free loans)

- various "gemachs", each of which will provide free or very low cost items or services

- educational programs from pre-nursery through the end of high school (tuition is often high, but a large percentage of students get subsidies so it's pay what you can)

- summer camps (again, most offer subsidies)

- special needs school and treatment center

- program for young adults with special needs to develop independent social, self-care and vocation skills

- substance abuse support and counseling

The list goes on...

Yes, IF you pay full price for everything, and if you also donate, it can be expensive to live in a Jewish area, pay for Jewish education, cook for Shabbat and holidays and invite guests over, join a synagogue, etc. We're basically at that phase in our lives right now.

When we first got married, we were at the stage where we got the free or subsidized Shabbat meals at the synagogue, and we ate cheap vegetarian food at home. I accepted a lot of invitations in those days, and try to "pay it forward" by hosting people now.

When we were starving students, we had access to programs that were free or highly subsidized.

Interesting thread and enlightening. My tuppence worth being that anybody who reads/posts on this site is going to see any/all/their own religion/belief come under fire at some point. I do. It's good to see generally.

The bolded intrigues me because if you were to drop that paragraph sans the religious aspect, into any dialogue it is just plain old 'work hard, move up the ladder, earn more dosh.' I think Chaviva forgot the work hard bit. She's like Abigail the the blessed catholic person, trying a bit too hard and complaining WAY too much :lol:

[ShesCrafty]

Interesting that we can be critical of all religions here except Judaism, and if you're critical of something involving the Jewish religion, that makes you an anti-semite racist. Isn't it instead condescending to just pat their heads and look the other way because some feelings might be hurt if someone is critical of some Jewish practices?

If you're a Jewish person and are HURT or OFFENDED over criticism of your religions practices, then you've lost the right to criticize fundies, many who hold their old beliefs and practices to be just as important to them as yours are to you. It's hypocritical to call it fair game to criticize fundies, Muslims, anyone else, but then declare Judaism to be off limits unless someone wants to be called an anti-Semite racism.

Do you even know what anti-semitism is? It's hostility to Jews. Strongly disagreeing with how someone practices their religion, even being disgusted by it, is an opinion, NOT hostility. Hostility is trying to get rid of Judaism, or trying to make Jewish people afraid they'll be harmed if they admit to being Jews. NO ONE is talking about harm or banning Judaism, or using laws to limit the rights of Jewish people. Therefore there is NO anti-semitism going on.

There is nothing more going on than disapproving of all the fees you have to pay to belong to the club. If this is wrong, then it's wrong to criticize the Duggars, Jill and David, and every other fundy too. I'm not going to give any religious group special exemption from criticism.

FJers snark on fundamentalist Christians, which is a very small subset of Christianity as a whole. You continue to speak of Judaism as if it is one collective borg that won't let you through the doors of the synagogue until you hand your paycheck over, despite ACTUAL Jewish people telling you otherwise. Are there crazy Jews out there that deserve to be snarked upon? Abso-fucking-lutely. I don't think anyone would be accusing you of anti-Semitism if you wanted to snark about the abuse some ultra-orthodox Jews hurl at the women of the wall or criticize the batshit crazy Lev Tahor community in Canada. It's your continued insistence that "the Jews" as a whole are more interested in your money before joining their "club" that is offensive. It would be the same as if you said ALL Christians are quiverfull, anti-choice, patriarchal assholes who want to turn America into a theocracy. It's just not true.

[Mama Mia]

FJers snark on fundamentalist Christians, which is a very small subset of Christianity as a whole. You continue to speak of Judaism as if it is one collective borg that won't let you through the doors of the synagogue until you hand your paycheck over, despite ACTUAL Jewish people telling you otherwise. Are there crazy Jews out there that deserve to be snarked upon? Abso-fucking-lutely. I don't think anyone would be accusing you of anti-Semitism if you wanted to snark about the abuse some ultra-orthodox Jews hurl at the women of the wall or criticize the batshit crazy Lev Tahor community in Canada. It's your continued insistence that "the Jews" as a whole are more interested in your money before joining their "club" that is offensive. It would be the same as if you said ALL Christians are quiverfull, anti-choice, patriarchal assholes who want to turn America into a theocracy. It's just not true.

That's really not true though. There are many posters here who will lump in all Christians all the time. Thread titles often start with " Christians offended by..." Or " Christians want to ban...."and name off something being promoted by only a very small portion of Christians. Or in a thread how often do posters say " I'm so glad I don't believe in x like Christians do?" In much stronger language.

And it's not really reasonable to say it's somehow permissible to criticize only some bizarre, over the top actions of a particular crazy blogger or ultra extremist sub-group of a particular religion --- but not all right to question a more commonly accepted stance or main-stream practice of the wider religious group. How many discussions have their been where people criticize the stance of the Catholic Hierarchy on birth-control?

Of course all faith groups need to pay the bills. And they need to raise the money from within their group. But yeah--- looking at it from the outside --- it IS shocking if members of a religious group , including their leaders, are saying it's expensive to be part of a religion. It just is.

The point about " finding a non-Jew" to do something does also sound very....odd...I had assumed that a person either hired a non-Jewish babysitter, or had a friend to trade with. But otherwise...yes, that does seem very much like the non-Jewish helper is less than.

I liked 2xx1xy1jd 's post explaining how it more typically works. But I could see how that money would be a barrier for some people in some areas to even be part of their religious community -- and from my outside perspective - that's just unfathomable, to me.

[Maggie Mae]

Can I just pause to ask when antisemitism changed from being defined as racism against Semites to racism against Jewish people?

I don't understand why anyone would want to be Orthodox. I had a friend who was reform and tried so so so hard to get "in" with the Orthodox "crowd" if you will. Makes no sense to me. Reform is where it's at. You get all the benefits of being a chosen person without the restriction. And the restrictions are annoying. Especially to those of us who got stuck handling money and carrying stuff for our want to be Orthodox friends.