Chaviva's husband can't return to the US for months

[Idolatry]

My suspicion is that previously, she's had some run-ins with the Denver Jewish community, and that may be causing some people to keep their distance. I could be remembering wrongly, but I think the last time Chaviva was living in Denver was immediately following her divorce, and she gradually slipped away from Orthodoxy and wound up dating a non-Jew. When word got out, and some community members called her on it (not just because religious Jews aren't supposed to get romantic with non-Jews, but because that was conduct that could cast doubt on both her conversion and other conversions that her rabbi and beit din performed), she was pretty nasty about it and said some... undiplomatic things about the community there. All of this was on her public blog and other social media, of course, which is the only reason I know about any of it. I was a little surprised that she went back to Denver, honestly, because my impression had been that there was some bad blood there between her and other people in the community. But that could explain why no one is rushing to try and give her a hand now.

She also said she didn't know a local non-Jew to schlep her baby stroller, because rules. So maybe she's got nobody willing to help her? Can't imagine why.

[countressrascal]

She also said she didn't know a local non-Jew to schlep her baby stroller, because rules. So maybe she's got nobody willing to help her? Can't imagine why.

One thing that I don't understand about this story-if she really talked to the rabbi about this issue, he would have a told either his wife or the women who is in charge of the welfare support group to help her out to give her a name of a non jew who will help her. Every Temple has a list of them. So I think that there is some other issues going on between her and Temple.

[Mama Mia]

It seems, to me, that even if she is on the outs with the local community -- there are some fairly obvious, easy fixes she could do to make her life more manageable that she just isn't doing.

How about posting on craigslist or some local mommy board to find another mom to trade childcare with? She could have a non- Jewish mom watch her child on Shabbos, and she could watch that woman's child another day of the week. I understand she feels lost and overwhelmed -- but she also seems to be avoiding any actual solutions to help ease the burden a bit.

[FaustianSlip]

She also said she didn't know a local non-Jew to schlep her baby stroller, because rules. So maybe she's got nobody willing to help her? Can't imagine why.

Indeed.

I read the thing about not knowing a single non-Jew and laughed, honestly. She's living in Denver, not some ultra-Orthodox enclave in Kiryas Joel or New Square or something. It's completely bizarre to me that she apparently doesn't have a single non-Jewish friend, acquaintance or even a babysitter she could hire for a couple of hours to watch the kid while she goes to shul.

I think she kind of thrives on all of the drama and woe is me stuff, personally- I'm not entirely convinced that she's actually trying to find solutions for any of this stuff. Whether that's because she's not really all that invested in finding solutions or because she's so lacking in common sense that she really, truly can't figure any of this stuff out for herself, I don't know. For the sake of the kid involved, I hope she sorts herself out.

I agree that it's really strange that neither the rabbi nor the rebbitzen have offered any kind of assistance or put her in touch with someone who could help her out a bit. It just doesn't jive with the Jewish communities I know, even the non-Orthodox ones, which tend to be more spread out and have more people who don't know one another.

[shedemei]

To be fair, she might not have a non-Jewish friend that she feels comfortable asking to push a stroller for god-knows-how long from Chaviva's house to shul, then hang around somewhere, return to shul, then push it back to Chaviva's house. Additionally, you're not allowed to directly ask a non-Jew to do something for you on Shabbat, so Chaviva would have to hint about it and hope that someone gets it.

I personally would not sign up to be her manual labor every Friday and Saturday.

She also wouldn't be able to pay someone to do it. You are not allowed to handle money on Shabbat. You are not supposed to employ someone on Shabbat. The way around the restriction is to hire someone to do work for you during the week and Shabbat, so you can pay them a lump sum for services.

She did piss off the Denver community when she moved there by posting a long rant about how their conversion program was awful. Let me see if I can track that down.

[shedemei]

Here are the two angry posts about conversion in Denver:

Original post

mamaloshen.blogspot.com/2011/10/conversions-racket.html

Followup discussing the backlash from the Denver community. Scroll down to Cheapskate for comments from someone in that community who gently asks her to chill and get to know them before spouting off

mamaloshen.blogspot.com/2011/10/response-conversions-racket.html

I submitted both to be indexed by the way back machine so they'll be there later if deleted.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150125225 ... t.html?m=1

https://web.archive.org/web/20150125230 ... acket.html

[LucySnowe]

She could have a non- Jewish mom watch her child on Shabbos

Ah, but the non-Jewish mom wouldn't have a kosher kitchen. Chaviva had an entry about how she was determined not to slip up in her observance of kashrut [the laws of keeping kosher] and if you're that observant, you're unlikely to risk sending your kid off with a kosher packed lunch in case they give him a non-kosher plate to eat from. And he's not old enough to be able to say "no thanks." The daycare he goes to is kosher so those kinds of issues aren't going to come up.

I could have sworn she mentioned something about how she was being treated differently by the community when she came back married and with a son, but I can't find it.

When her husband was there, he was playing on an all-Jewish baseball team, and as I say the kid goes to a kosher daycare, so there has clearly been *some* integration into the community.

[Benk]

Re-reading the post on Chaviva's blog about not being able to carry Asher to shul, I noticed that she was talking about being stuck at home with the baby on Shabbos because the eruv was temporarily broken. So, while the various suggestions for ways to get around the problem of not carrying Asher to shul on Shabbos might work, it's not so surprising, and no particular indictment of her common sense, if she can't pull together something on very short notice.

This seems pretty analogous to trying to find childcare when your kid's school calls a snow day. There are childcare arrangements out there, but if you don't have much time to plan them, you may just end up having to cancel everything and staying home that day. And you might well be less than thrilled about it.

[Mama Mia]

Re-reading the post on Chaviva's blog about not being able to carry Asher to shul, I noticed that she was talking about being stuck at home with the baby on Shabbos because the eruv was temporarily broken. So, while the various suggestions for ways to get around the problem of not carrying Asher to shul on Shabbos might work, it's not so surprising, and no particular indictment of her common sense, if she can't pull together something on very short notice.

This seems pretty analogous to trying to find childcare when your kid's school calls a snow day. There are childcare arrangements out there, but if you don't have much time to plan them, you may just end up having to cancel everything and staying home that day. And you might well be less than thrilled about it.

Oh ok, that makes sense. So she was just venting about a temporary issue? I guess I should actually read the blog before commenting :embarrassed:

I swear it's the Social Worker in me. I may not be working anymore but I can't stop the compulsion to try to " fix" things for people! If only I did it in my own life :shifty:

[2xx1xy1JD]

I just her post.

It didn't sound like any sort of major crisis, just a small vent and musing about the whole eruv rule as it applies to carrying babies/toddlers. Based on this thread, I was expecting the post to be quite different.

As some others have pointed out, no, she can't just say, "well, I'm a convert so I can ignore the rules". Judaism doesn't seek out converts and believes that it's perfectly fine to live life as a non-Jew, but if you do convert (which takes a helluva lot of effort), you are expected to take it seriously and commit to the rules. If anything, a convert may feel MORE compelled to do things right, out of concern that somebody could question the validity of the conversion. The best comparison is citizenship. If I really do something wrong, as someone who was born in Canada, the Canadian government can send me to jail but I'll still be Canadian. If my friend, who is an immigrant, does something really bad, there is the possibility of being deported on top of any jail sentence.

Someone who is a convert also didn't grow up with the rules, so they aren't really second-nature. They had to learn them. I find that makes for interesting blog posts, because you get detailed information and someone thinking about the reasons beyond "that's just what we've always done".

[2xx1xy1JD]

Re reading converts' blogs:

Sometimes, I get a kick out of seeing what someone's perspective is on things we (ie. Orthodox Jews) do from the POV of someone who does these things now, but wasn't exposed to them growing up.

Skylar (Crazy Jewish Convert) has a post on Shabbat meals that made me chuckle. It's an eerily accurate description of what a Friday night meal looks like at my house, right down to the assorted dips/salads and silly mime gestures after we wash our hands. Part of me realizes that I make a lot of food, but I'm surrounded by people who make even bigger Friday night dinners and grew up thinking that it's perfectly normal to yell at people to eat. It's funny to read about our lack of portion control from her perspective.

[FaustianSlip]

The best comparison is citizenship. If I really do something wrong, as someone who was born in Canada, the Canadian government can send me to jail but I'll still be Canadian. If my friend, who is an immigrant, does something really bad, there is the possibility of being deported on top of any jail sentence.

Both as someone who deals with questions of citizenship literally daily in my work and as a convert, I absolutely loathe this comparison for a whole host of reasons. First, it's almost always used to compare non-Orthodox converts to illegal immigrants (the offensiveness of which I expect I don't need to explain). Secondly, it's just way off the mark and inaccurate, at least as it compares to American citizenship and the American citizenship process.

- If someone immigrates to the U.S., naturalizes and becomes a citizen, they are a citizen. Period. The government can't suddenly take away their citizenship, no matter how heinous a crime they commit (believe me- I've visited naturalized citizens in jail who subsequently murdered people- they may be awful, but they're still American citizens). This may be different in Canada, but I'd be shocked to hear that the Canadian government is deporting citizens who gained their citizenship by naturalization because they've committed a crime.

- If someone immigrates under, say, a Republican administration, and is deemed to have met the qualifications of U.S. citizenship, and a Democratic administration subsequently takes power, the Democrats can't turn around, say, "Uh, no, actually, Republicans don't understand the Constitution correctly- they weren't qualified to grant you citizenship, so in fact, you're not a citizen at all!" Sadly, the same cannot be said for conversion to Judaism, where even if you convert with an Orthodox beit din, you'll still have to present your papers to people and "prove" your Jewishness pretty much any time you enter a new community.

- Whether or not someone is a citizen, they still have to follow U.S. law if they're living in the United States. The whole argument in Judaism is that if someone's not Jewish, they're not obligated in the laws.

- If someone is a permanent resident but not a citizen and breaks the law, they could be deported, which is entirely legal and has ample established precedent. While Chaviva's conversion could be revoked if her behavior crosses certain lines, this a recent, wholly un-halachic development that completely contradicts the established halacha of the last several centuries, at least. Until the last fifteen years or so, it has always been understood that once someone converts, they are always and forever Jewish, even if they completely stop practicing Judaism or even go back to their previous religion (which has always been the whole argument for having lengthy conversion processes with stringent standards). It's only very recently that certain rabbis, particularly in Israel, have decided to start revoking people's conversions or ruling the converts of particular rabbis to be non-Jews.

I could go on, but the conversion/citizenship metaphor gives me a headache.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Both as someone who deals with questions of citizenship literally daily in my work and as a convert, I absolutely loathe this comparison for a whole host of reasons. First, it's almost always used to compare non-Orthodox converts to illegal immigrants (the offensiveness of which I expect I don't need to explain). Secondly, it's just way off the mark and inaccurate, at least as it compares to American citizenship and the American citizenship process.

- If someone immigrates to the U.S., naturalizes and becomes a citizen, they are a citizen. Period. The government can't suddenly take away their citizenship, no matter how heinous a crime they commit (believe me- I've visited naturalized citizens in jail who subsequently murdered people- they may be awful, but they're still American citizens). This may be different in Canada, but I'd be shocked to hear that the Canadian government is deporting citizens who gained their citizenship by naturalization because they've committed a crime.

- If someone immigrates under, say, a Republican administration, and is deemed to have met the qualifications of U.S. citizenship, and a Democratic administration subsequently takes power, the Democrats can't turn around, say, "Uh, no, actually, Republicans don't understand the Constitution correctly- they weren't qualified to grant you citizenship, so in fact, you're not a citizen at all!" Sadly, the same cannot be said for conversion to Judaism, where even if you convert with an Orthodox beit din, you'll still have to present your papers to people and "prove" your Jewishness pretty much any time you enter a new community.

- Whether or not someone is a citizen, they still have to follow U.S. law if they're living in the United States. The whole argument in Judaism is that if someone's not Jewish, they're not obligated in the laws.

- If someone is a permanent resident but not a citizen and breaks the law, they could be deported, which is entirely legal and has ample established precedent. While Chaviva's conversion could be revoked if her behavior crosses certain lines, this a recent, wholly un-halachic development that completely contradicts the established halacha of the last several centuries, at least. Until the last fifteen years or so, it has always been understood that once someone converts, they are always and forever Jewish, even if they completely stop practicing Judaism or even go back to their previous religion (which has always been the whole argument for having lengthy conversion processes with stringent standards). It's only very recently that certain rabbis, particularly in Israel, have decided to start revoking people's conversions or ruling the converts of particular rabbis to be non-Jews.

I could go on, but the conversion/citizenship metaphor gives me a headache.

I understand why the comparison would piss you off. I am not arguing, and wouldn't argue, that non-Orthodox converts are the equivalent of illegal immigrants.

It was the closest example that I could find to explain why an Orthodox convert might feel the pressure to be extra-careful about following the rules.

I agree that this recent trend of retroactively declaring conversions to be invalid is horrible - but it's also a reality that someone like Chaviva has to face. I know that there are some situations where Canadian citizenship can be revoked (not for ordinary crimes, but for false representation or concealing material circumstances, or for dual citizens involved in terrorism, treason, or armed conflict against Canadian forces - some of this is a recent amendment due to ISIS and somewhat controversial). She faces a potential threat that someone who is born Jewish does not, and the consequences of screwing up can affect her son as well. [A friend of mine was in this position - her mother converted before she was born, in a sincere, Orthodox conversion. Years later, she divorced, married a Catholic man and stopped practicing Judaism. My friend had her Jewish status questioned, even though she had gone on to become ultra-Orthodox, and had to do a ceremonial conversion before she could get married. Her mother was quite livid about it, since she felt that her own conversion had been perfectly valid at the time that it was done.]

Tl/dr: No offense meant, just trying to show why a convert might feel the need to be more stringent, not less, because current conversion politics suck.

[EmiGirl]

I find it a lot similar to people like Abigail and my husband's uncle who have converted to Catholicism. They tend to be more obsessed with doing things the good Catholic way than the cradle Catholics that I know. I've always thought it was to prove that they belong.

[Mama Mia]

umm.....undocumented is the preferred term not illegal ...just sayin :whistle:

[August]

Re-reading the post on Chaviva's blog about not being able to carry Asher to shul, I noticed that she was talking about being stuck at home with the baby on Shabbos because the eruv was temporarily broken. So, while the various suggestions for ways to get around the problem of not carrying Asher to shul on Shabbos might work, it's not so surprising, and no particular indictment of her common sense, if she can't pull together something on very short notice.

This seems pretty analogous to trying to find childcare when your kid's school calls a snow day. There are childcare arrangements out there, but if you don't have much time to plan them, you may just end up having to cancel everything and staying home that day. And you might well be less than thrilled about it.

The point was actually that she pays money she doesn't have in order to live inside the eruv and that she should just deal or choose a more normal religion so she can afford to paythe rent and feed him.

[DGayle]

One thing that I don't understand about this story-if she really talked to the rabbi about this issue, he would have a told either his wife or the women who is in charge of the welfare support group to help her out to give her a name of a non jew who will help her. Every Temple has a list of them. So I think that there is some other issues going on between her and Temple.

Am I the only person who sees it as really offensive to basically think non-Jews are tokens who exist to be the manual labor, for free, to Jewish people? It would be different if we were talking about if she had any non-OJ-friends, but with the way it's being phrased-doesn't she know any non--Jews--just really sounds like the only good non-Jews can be to her is for free labor.

If I had an OJ friend who needed help like this sometimes, sure, because I know she'd help me in return when I needed it. But if all the good I am to someone is not as a friend, but as a token to get favors from without ever giving in return, no.

[DGayle]

Here are the two angry posts about conversion in Denver:

Original post

mamaloshen.blogspot.com/2011/10/conversions-racket.html

Her post is horrifying enough but because WTF is up with basically making it so you've got to have a lot of money just to convert? If you can't convert because you can't afford it, it's time to rethink that religion altogether.

In the comments, a RABBI said, "As someone said can we really put a price on a neshama? Well, no, but us $3,000 really too much to ask for your neshama too?"

And this is the first time I've ever seem Judaism about really being all about money. $3,000 per neshama/soul IS too much to ask if that kind of fee puts the family in dire straights and means the kids don't get to eat. $3,000 isn't chump change. My family isn't in the poor category, but even we rarely ever see that much money at one time.

Sure, clergy deserve a living, but it should come from donations from congregants who can afford, not by bleeding people of money they don't have to spare or else they're going to hell.

And someone else had to take out loans to convert.

What's important to those rabbis, converting souls, or money? If you believe not being a member means hell, then it's cruel to condemn someone to eternal fire because they don't have enough money.

Another convert admits it's expensive to be Jewish because of all the fees.

And here is where I say it: No wonder why the typical household income of the typical Jewish family is so high. You have to be rich to be Jewish, or eventually you're pushed out. That's incredibly stupid, and makes me view Judaism in the same light as Christianity. Another stupid religion with fucked-up rules that doesn't really practice what it preaches.

Followup discussing the backlash from the Denver community. Scroll down to Cheapskate for comments from someone in that community who gently asks her to chill and get to know them before spouting off

mamaloshen.blogspot.com/2011/10/response-conversions-racket.html

Another from comments: "Day school is expensive. But many of the mid to large Jewish communities have more than one to choose from. You don't need to attend the one that has the highest tuition. "

In my area, there are a lot of privates schools to choose from. That doesn't mean most families can afford it. Even the cheapest is still $600/mo, and that's for kindergarten half-days. The most expensive is about $2000/mo

"And if they're not able to pay the cost of conversion, how are they going to pay the cost of Jewish life? "

And that is why people think Judaism is more concerned with money. That Jewish woman just nailed it. It's the money that matters.

"As someone else has already said, if they can't afford the costs of conversion, how will they afford yeshiva tuition and synagogue memberships? "

A membership fee? Are you fucking kidding me?!

[Johanna25]

Yes, synagogues have membership fees. You can't just drop in during the high holidays and expect a seat. Ultra-Orthodox is even more expensive. You must live within community boundaries where real estate is expensive, buy all the special clothing and accoutrements, shop in kosher stores, send your kids to yeshivas, etc. etc.

[DGayle]

Yes, synagogues have membership fees. You can't just drop in during the high holidays and expect a seat. Ultra-Orthodox is even more expensive. You must live within community boundaries where real estate is expensive, buy all the special clothing and accoutrements, shop in kosher stores, send your kids to yeshivas, etc. etc.

Fucking outrageous. That makes it a private club. How do they have a religious tax exemption?

I, an atheist, can walk into any church for any mass, and have a seat, without ever paying a penny. My god, Christianity just jumped up a few notches in my eyes. You can't be homeless or poor and be Jewish, but you can be homeless and poor and be Christian, and only the bad churches will close their doors to you.

[Georgiana]

Am I the only person who sees it as really offensive to basically think non-Jews are tokens who exist to be the manual labor, for free, to Jewish people? It would be different if we were talking about if she had any non-OJ-friends, but with the way it's being phrased-doesn't she know any non--Jews--just really sounds like the only good non-Jews can be to her is for free labor.

If I had an OJ friend who needed help like this sometimes, sure, because I know she'd help me in return when I needed it. But if all the good I am to someone is not as a friend, but as a token to get favors from without ever giving in return, no.

My great grandmother grew up fairly near an OJ community, and on the Sabbath the nearby gentile kids would come down to the neighborhood. If anyone needed anything, the would come out into the street, and one of the kids would assist them for a penny or so. Not only did it build good will between the communities, but everyone benefitted from it.

The point is, even if it's something small, people are more likely to help you out if you give them a token of your appreciation and don't act completely entitled. Even if she only sent thank you cards or returned the favor in knind, she'd be more likely to find people willing to help her.

[FaustianSlip]

umm.....undocumented is the preferred term not illegal ...just sayin :whistle:

Yes, of course, but I'm quoting what other people have said to me, and the language they used (chosen deliberately to reflect their attitudes about non-Orthodox converts) was "illegal." Thank you for the hand slapping, however.

[FaustianSlip]

I have never, ever seen a synagogue turn someone away at High Holy Days. Every shul I've ever attended had a way for people to get free tickets if money was an issue. All of them.

The only instances in which I could imagine someone being turned away for not having a ticket are a couple of places I've been overseas where security is an issue, and they won't let anyone in who's not a member of the community. And in those cases, you e-mail the synagogue beforehand, explain your situation, and they'll tell you how to get tickets (and accommodate you if price is an issue). High Holy Days tickets are sold and membership dues exist because unlike churches, synagogues cannot take up a collection every week, since you can't handle money on Shabbat. This is why things like synagogue dues and High Holy Days tickets exist, although I've always seen High Holy Days tickets included with membership dues, myself. You do not have to be a member of a synagogue to attend services there, and every year around High Holy Days, there are all kinds of places inviting anyone and everyone to come and worship, tickets or no. I was given tickets to my shul's High Holy Days services back in the States before I was a member- it was a complete non-issue. I've also attended services as a visitor in multiple countries, and again, getting access to services was not a problem- I just e-mailed them a week or two before and asked about attending.

A lot of the stuff being said here about "rich Jews" is blatantly anti-Semitic (besides being untrue- a huge swath of the most Orthodox Jews are incredibly poor, as it happens, for a variety of reasons). Have to say, I didn't ever think I'd encounter that kind of garbage on Free Jinger. Fucking gross.

[ShesCrafty]

This is in response to DGayle's post above.

I'm not Jewish (I'm not religious at all), but your post is pretty offensive. I'd go so far to say it's (borderline?) Anti-Semitic. I'm sure the Jewish FJ members can explain things much better but a few problems I have:

And this is the first time I've ever seem Judaism about really being all about money.

Judaism, like all religions, has a wide range of beliefs and you can't label ALL of Judaism as being about money or anything else. Also, that really plays into the stereotype that Jews are greedy that has been used for centuries as one excuse to rationalize anti-Semitic behavior.

What's important to those rabbis, converting souls, or money? If you believe not being a member means hell, then it's cruel to condemn someone to eternal fire because they don't have enough money.

My understanding is that Judaism is not a religion that actively seeks converts and believes that it is perfectly okay to NOT be Jewish. While they accept sincere converts, mostt Rabbis are not concerned about converting souls and wouldn't believe you are going to hell if you don't convert, so it's not a case of them saying "give us 3K or burn for all eternity." I actually don't know the general Jewish belief on the concept of Hell, but I don't think it's anywhere close to the concept of a Christian Fundamentalists idea of Hell.

You have to be rich to be Jewish, or eventually you're pushed out.

Whether through birth or conversion, once you are considered Jewish, you're Jewish. You don't get kicked out. So whether you religiously follow every law ever laid out or are an Pantheistic Wiccan who worships Mother Earth, you're still Jewish.

And there is a great deal of poverty in the ultra-orthodox community. I don't think any of them are getting "pushed out". And again, the idea of "money and Jews" is a stereotype and pretty offensive.

A membership fee? Are you fucking kidding me?!

This may be something similar to a tithe in a Christian church (just a guess, I could be completely wrong on this one).

Anyhoo, just some thoughts from a non-Jew who read your post and did this :?. And please, others feel free to correct me if I got any details wrong. This is just my understanding of Judaism from a general standpoint.

[LucySnowe]

The only instances in which I could imagine someone being turned away for not having a ticket are a couple of places I've been overseas where security is an issue, and they won't let anyone in who's not a member of the community. And in those cases, you e-mail the synagogue beforehand, explain your situation, and they'll tell you how to get tickets (and accommodate you if price is an issue).

And even if you get in touch beforehand you are likely to be interrogated at the door (personal experience on that one). Which I understand. Anti-Semitism has skyrocketed in Europe and the Charlie Hebdo murders (where the only woman killed in the office might well have been targeted for being Jewish) and the hostage/murder situation at the Jewish supermarket a few days later has brought that into the foreground. I grew up in an area of the states where there are plenty of Jews, and I can't remember any anti-Semitic events, yet there was always a police officer stationed outside during High Holidays. It's just...part of being Jewish, awful as that is.

Who would pay for the upkeep of the synagogue if not the members of that synagogue? I know some Christians tithe; is that also deemed offensive? And, serious question, how *do* Catholic churches pay for the upkeep of the church and pay the clergy? It can't all be the collection plate, surely? What about Protestant groups?