Chaviva's husband can't return to the US for months

[sparkles]

Question to redirect the group from messy Godwin's law divergences:

Is there a sliding scale for the membership fees? Thinking income based. And communities and support do vary according to region and other factors. Like not knowing each congregant and why Mr. and Mrs. elderly are not attending services anymore or where they are and that they really could use help but will not ask directly. Or not knowing the family dynamics and being a clueless git who asks the bereaved son flying in from across the country to pay on the spot for the memorial service for his father (which infuriated my dad).

Every synagogue I've done work for has an income-based sliding scale (I know for a fact because I do the layout/design for their membership applications). And every synagogue also clearly states on the application that no one will be denied membership for lack of funds. Here's a direct quote from one of the Chabad applications:

New members are entitled to a 50% discount on their membership dues for the 1st year. All contributions are

tax deductible and can be paid throughout the year. No one is turned away for lack of funds. If you can not

afford the full amount requested, contact the rabbi for a confidential arrangement.

Fucking outrageous. That makes it a private club. How do they have a religious tax exemption?

I, an atheist, can walk into any church for any mass, and have a seat, without ever paying a penny. My god, Christianity just jumped up a few notches in my eyes. You can't be homeless or poor and be Jewish, but you can be homeless and poor and be Christian, and only the bad churches will close their doors to you.

So as has been pointed out many times, you DON'T have to be rich in order to worship or join a synagogue. It's true that if you're not a synagogue member you can't just waltz into high holiday services without making arrangements beforehand but that's mainly for reasons of space, and more importantly, security because the threat of violence against synagogues is very real.

I asked upthread but don't think it was ever answered. Synagogues have membership and other related fees to keep things going. There's really no other way to pay salaries, maintain facilities, fund programs, etc. since there's no governing body dispensing funds. If churches don't charge for membership (and again, synagogue membership is not mandatory if you can't afford it) how do they manage financially? Clergy needs to be paid, buildings need to be maintained, so where does the money come from? I do know that a couple of the synagogues I work for were in dire financial straits for a while and two of them had to merge with others for both financial reasons and because of dwindling membership (changing demographics). I also know that in New York, we frequently hear of parish churches being closed by the Diocese for the same reasons. I'll note too that a couple of my synagogue clients that have a seriously wealthy congregation (we're talking people who own sports teams and have college buildings, hospitals and concert halls named after them wealthy) help support other less financially stable congregations.

I've been an atheist for nearly 50 years but culturally, I'm Jewish. There's no getting around it. (You can take the girl out of the Jew but you can't take the Jew out of the girl.) That being said, I have about as much patience for many of the rules, regulations and philosophies of Jewish religion as I do for all other religions. I find many of the laws and traditions to be outmoded, self-serving, hypocritical, and in many cases, downright stupid for lack of a better word. (I lived for quite a while in 4-building complex that had a very heavy Ultra Orthodox population and absolutely felt that I was looked on as "lesser than," especially on Shabbat when the men would wait for one of us "others" to open a door so they could go rushing in. I finally had it when one man rushed past me so fast that he knocked me over and nearly knocked my daughter out of her stroller. Not a word of apology; he was only concerned that he'd touched me. My fault for being there, I guess. After that, I'd go out of my way to sneak through doors so they'd have to wait longer. Childish, yes, but boo hoo.) I don't hold Jews to any higher standard than I do other religions and I'll be the first to snark. I do, however, try to avoid inflammatory or triggering language because history and all that, and I think that's what's at issue here. Sorry to point the finger at you DGayle but I was really shocked by the vehemence of your posts. You didn't question or ask for clarification–which many here would have been happy to provide–you basically condemned an entire religion by your words, and I don't think that's what you intended. There was no Godwin-ing going on when people pointed out WHY the language that you and others used had a dangerous precedent. It wasn't about WHAT you were saying, it was HOW you said it. We've done the same here regarding other triggering language (threads about why the word "lame" was considered offensive, or why gender based insults like "bitch" should be avoided, for example. Me personally? I appreciate the education. It's what I love best about FJ.)

And just for the record, synagogue dues are so not the origin of the "Jews love money!" trope. That began back in the middle ages when Jews in most of Europe were barred from a huge swath of professions and were instead forced to turn to money lending, since it was one job that was open to them that Christians couldn't/wouldn't do (because interest). Predictably, once a lot of Christians found themselves owing money to one of those dirty Jews, they would use "the Jews killed Jesus!" as an excuse to rove through the Jewish ghetto destroying stuff, killing people, beating them up, et cetera. And as someone who literally had a coworker who liked to throw loose change at me (because Jews and money, get it? Isn't that just hilarious?!), my inclination to find riffs on the "all Jews are stingy and rich" thing funny is very, very low. It's not funny, it's not original, it's just gross and anti-Semitic.

I was about to post the same. I learned about this while studying the guilds and also after reading Ivanhoe, which is surprisingly sympathetic to the Jews for a book of it's time (Isaac of York and Rebecca pretty much drive the story).

[treemom]

So I was just curious and bored since I am not back at work yet and reread this thread. There is lots and lots of criticism about certain Jewish practices by both Jew and non Jew alike in this thread. I don't really want to hash out the reasons I have distanced myself from Judaism, but I can be pretty critical of it myself. I have been critical of it and have ultimately raised a child who feels no need to be connected with it anymore than he is connected to Hungary or Indiana (where my family immigrated from and the state I grew up in, but have not lived as an adult).

I personally think there is a lot to criticize about it and have never known any reasonable Jew to not have some criticism. But I don't think "Jews are all about money" is a criticism of the faith, theology or practice. Do I think it is a reasonable question to ask "is the stereotype about Jews and money rooted in charging fees?" Yes. That is a reasonable question, however, the answer is no it isn't. fees are a very modern and as many have pointed out inconsistently applied concept and the Jews/money trope goes back for a very long time. Is it ok to say that it may put Jews who are poorer in an uncomfortable position? Yes, yes it is. And while this isn't an experience I have ever had I am absolutely sure it has happened. Is it ok to accuse Jews and specifically Rabbis of damning people to hell because of money? No, because that isn't Jewish theology in any way. Nor is it reasonable to say Rabbis care more about money that getting converts. Unlike much of Christianity, there is no need to be "saved" or whatever to avoid a hell and enter into a heaven. It's not really the same concept of an after life. Not being a convert doesn't throw you into a lake of fire or even, as in some Christian religion send you to a lesser heaven. They Jewish believes of an after life isn't like Christianity exactly and honestly at times I have found Christianity confusing and weird because of that. Nor, in my experience which I admit differs from many American Jews for many reasons, is there a focus on it in Judaism. The focus was always taught to me as focusing on this life, the here and now.

Anyhow, I think there is plenty we can criticize about it, both as a whole and the practices of differencing sects. I don't think criticism should be shut down...but I don't consider "Jews are funny about money" or "Judaism is all about money" or actually presenting stereotypes to be true criticism.

[FaustianSlip]

Question to redirect the group from messy Godwin's law divergences:

Is there a sliding scale for the membership fees? Thinking income based. And communities and support do vary according to region and other factors. Like not knowing each congregant and why Mr. and Mrs. elderly are not attending services anymore or where they are and that they really could use help but will not ask directly. Or not knowing the family dynamics and being a clueless git who asks the bereaved son flying in from across the country to pay on the spot for the memorial service for his father (which infuriated my dad).

Some shuls have stated sliding scales, others have specified discounts for new members, students, young adults, et cetera. I don't know of any synagogue that would not make allowances for people in financial need- I've browsed a lot of synagogue websites in my day, across the spectrum from Reform to Orthodox (mostly because I move and travel so often), and I've yet to see one where the membership information page didn't include something to the effect of, "Please contact us if you're concerned about affording the stated dues." Virtually every synagogue is willing to work with people on the costs, especially these days were a lot of people have eschewed membership in larger synagogues in favor of independent minyanim (prayer groups, basically, often lay-led but not always).

And like I said, you don't actually have to be a member of a synagogue, generally speaking, to attend services there. I attended my synagogue in the States almost every Shabbos and holiday, as well as frequent weekday minyanim, and no one ever asked me for a dime. And I was more than happy to take out a membership when I had converted, but I had multiple people tell me not to worry about it, because I was moving so soon. I was given Torah honors and such just like anyone else- it was a complete non-issue. I now have an out of town membership that's something like three hundred bucks a year, not because anyone pressured me into it, but because that community has given me a lot of support, and I'm happy to give something back, even if I'm not personally there. Maybe my dues will help cover the costs for someone who can't afford to pay.

Also, since it seems somewhat germane, it's worth noting that giving tzedakah, or charity, is one of the biggest mitzvot a Jew can perform. It's important enough that Maimonides, one of the most prominent Jewish scholars, actually ranked the different kinds of charitable giving into eight levels. From lowest to highest:

- Giving grudgingly.

- Giving less than one should, but doing so cheerfully.

- Giving directly to the poor upon being asked.

- Giving directly to the poor without being asked.

- Giving when the recipient is aware of the giver's identity, but the recipient is anonymous to the giver.

- Giving when the recipient is known to the giver, but the giver remains anonymous to the recipient.

- Giving in such a way that both the recipient and the giver are anonymous to each other.

- Helping a person before they are truly in need of charity, either by finding them employment, giving a substantial gift, loaning them money or helping them establish a business so that they don't become dependent upon others.

[Mama Mia]

Truthfully, and I guess I should be embarrassed by my lack of cultural stereotyping awareness - or not - :embarrassed: :? ---- I was only very vaguely aware, until this thread, that there was some sort of negative common bigotry in current society regarding Jewish people and money. I think I read something derogatory in some kind of comment board a couple of times -- by the kind of tin-hat wearing paranoia types who were ranting about everything. So thank you for the background and raising my awareness. I guess.

I think the issue -- and I don't see how this " concern trolling" or " " hand wringing" any more than talking about any fundie practice I have no personal stake in-- is that there is a BIG difference between having to make a special request for lower dues or an exemption and charity in order to be an integral part of a community -- and just being an equally contributing member because you choose to participate . And that goes doubly if it's about wanting to join a faith - but feel you can't because it's financially not feasible long term. That has nothing to do with soul winning or hell or any of that. It's about the individual person who is drawn to the beliefs and spiritual practice of a faith - and how are they able to access that?

I think 2xx1xy1jd made a very good point about the Orthodox groups growing because they make it more welcoming -- including financially. I think it's kind of similar to a lot of the Evangelical Mega-Churches. The mainstream, liberal Christian church membership has been rapidly dwindling -- but these more conservative churches come in with tons of activities for kids, and trips for teens and their membership explodes .

As for how Christian churches get money --- I know it varies greatly. Some Chuches do tithe- where members are encouraged to give 10% of their income. But in the articles I found, even churches that encourage that, only a small percentage of people actually do it. I think many do a combination of passing the collection plate -- people might put in $1, they might put in more, they might put in nothing. Services I've been to where there aren't envelopes the plate will mostly have $1 s, some $5 s or $20 s, and some checks. They often ask for donations, and people with more money will give larger gifts. Some people will set up monthly or annual donations. They might do a fundraiser for big projects like a new roof or an addition. The vast majority don't have childcare centers or schools attached. Some of the ministers and/ or their spouses hold outside jobs - either full or part-time.

[FaustianSlip]

Deleted because I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall. Multiple people who are actually Jewish have explained the dues system again and again and again, and it clearly isn't doing any good. Call me when people start fretting equally about how various Christian denominations levy dues and offerings from their members (which, yes, does include pledging funds, mandatory tithing and other such methods).

[Mama Mia]

It qualifies as concern trolling because one, you clearly didn't even have a basic understanding of how this works, why this system of dues is in place or how it's understood by the Jewish community (i.e. the people who actually do have a stake in all of this) and two, there is very little difference between the way synagogues collect dues and the way many, many Christian churches do, yet I don't see anyone singling out Christian denominations for having the chutzpah, as it were, to collect money or pledges from their parishioners. It's only the Jews, apparently, that come in for unique scrutiny about where and how they're getting the money to pay their rabbis, heat their synagogues and keep the lights on.

.

. People are talking about the membership dues system of the Jewish Community here, in this thread, because that's what the discussion is about. I'm sure there have been other threads on FJ where tithes or what not are discussed. In fact there are multiple threads, right this minute, that discuss how various Fundamentalists are grifting their parishioners. Or if those don't suffice you could start one. Or you could SFU since apparently ONLY people who are part of any group should discuss anything, right?

And yes, there IS a big difference between expecting a set amount of money annually to become or remain a member in good standing -- unless you ask for charity, and being asked to contribute what you can. Whether it's Jewish or any other group. But this particular discussion is about , apparently, the most common finance structure for Jewish communities, so that's what's being discussed. If it was a thread where people were surprised or find it problematic that Mormons groups , apparently, do the same thing -- would it be a requirement that someone bring up that Jewish groups follow the same structure? If not - why not?

Obviously people could make donations without it being at the actual worship service. " passing the collection plate" doesn't need to be literal :roll:

[formergothardite]

As for how Christian churches get money --- I know it varies greatly. Some Chuches do tithe- where members are encouraged to give 10% of their income. But in the articles I found, even churches that encourage that, only a small percentage of people actually do it. I think many do a combination of passing the collection plate -- people might put in $1, they might put in more, they might put in nothing. Services I've been to where there aren't envelopes the plate will mostly have $1 s, some $5 s or $20 s, and some checks. They often ask for donations, and people with more money will give larger gifts. Some people will set up monthly or annual donations. They might do a fundraiser for big projects like a new roof or an addition. The vast majority don't have childcare centers or schools attached. Some of the ministers and/ or their spouses hold outside jobs - either full or part-time

The churches I went to tithing was mandatory and one of those things you agreed to do when you joined the church. Not tithing was a sin and too bad if you couldn't afford it. There was no leeway given. You had to trust God and give 10%. And that didn't include the mission's offerings. And the love offerings for traveling preachers and singers. And you also had to be there for Sunday School, Sunday morning service, Sunday night service, Wednesday night prayer meeting and Saturday visitation. And when I was very young, there were a lot of IFB church schools and you were expected to send your kids to one of those schools. Those sort of died out when homeschooling became popular. You were expected to homeschool then. Children were expected to tithe too. I started tithing when I was four or five because my grandmother paid me $3 to help her clean. Even the toddler rooms took up tithes. Parents would send in coins for their children to give just to get them used to giving.

The Jewish way to raise the funds to keep things running doesn't seem to be that strange compared to what I grew up with and am surrounded with. At least they don't condemn people to hell for not tithing.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

One of my brothers who is pretty fundie still goes to a large Baptist church. They switched to this system where members were expected to have their tithes automatically drafted out of a bank account. The first month something went wrong and they drafted twice the amount they were supposed to out of my brothers account. He went and talked to them about it and they would grudgingly give it back but told him that God had a reason that twice the amount got drafted and did he really want to take God's money back? So he let them keep and the next month they didn't give him a break on tithing, they drafted the correct amount out of his account, but they wouldn't let him skip a month. Tithing is a big deal in the more conservative churches around here.

[treemom]

Also I think member in good standing in Jewish synagogues is different than what others think a member in good standing means. We don't really have something like a communion where abstaining or being refused (like Mormons may be) would be embarrassing. As FS described, you often can participate just as much as a non member as a member. The last time I paid dues to a synagogue was in 1999. I have not been an active member and have since then become completely non observant and also disillusioned with many things. However, I have attended Shabbat services and taken my so very not Jewish son. (His self identification, I understand many would feel he is Jewish). I have never been turned away and have also attended some private minyans since that time.

I do think part of the confusion is that I think some are taking the word membership and thinking of it differently than it would actually be practiced. I am almost sure our local Chabad congregation has either low or non existent fees. I have attended our Reform synagogue when I have. (Even though the rituals of Sephardhic origin don't always match that of Ashkenazi tradition which is what I think almost all the congregations in Memphis are...honestly I sometimes also get confused because Yiddish was never used by my Jewish grandparents and it's so often used in American Judaism because of the overwhelming about of those from Ashkenazi tradition). Anyhow, membership at a synagogue doesn't mean what I think a lot of you think it does.

[treemom]

My husband also reminded me that we joined in kiddush with the reform congregation a few times. I forgot about that. I am sure I have donated some money since 1999 and I know I have to the Jewish Community center where I think there are more non Jewish members than members because it has an awesome pool and splash pool. But I haven't been a member since 1999.

[treemom]

And maybe it's just me, but I think passing the collection plate is tacky. But I own that's probably growing up Jewish and not being accustomed to money handling being part of a religious service. I don't really judge Christians for it, but I did initially wonder how that aligned with some of the things I heard preached when I was at Liberty U. There was an entire service where they talked about Jesus throwing out the money handlers and then I kid you not passed the collection plate.

I understand that means something different to Christians but as a Jew (which was a first I think) there I thought it was really really weird. Even now it feels weird. I think it's ok to be uncomfortable with the membership dues but it's equally ok to be critical of passing the collection plate which many of you seem to think is ok and not filled with pressure. (And as I pointed out bringing my biases in feels really inappropriate at a religious service). I think the dues feels weird and worse because there is a lot more members with a Christian and a culturally Christian background who are assuming things like membership means the same thing.

Eta: repetitive postings are because I am chatting with husband and he is making me think of things. He also was surprised about the dues thing way back when and also once made a really bad Jew/money joke about me being the only poor Jew well before we were engaged. He was corrected in that and heard much of the same things many of us have said here. But he often doesn't understand a Jewish way of doing things and may have negative feelings about it because he was brought up Episcopalian so that feels normal to him.

[feministxtian]

about bad jokes...try being an only child in a Latino-Catholic community!!!

[treemom]

about bad jokes...try being an only child in a Latino-Catholic community!!!

I'm sure. I was pretty pissed when husband said it to me. Luckily he listened to the reasons I was upset.

[Mama Mia]

And maybe it's just me, but I think passing the collection plate is tacky. But I own that's probably growing up Jewish and not being accustomed to money handling being part of a religious service. I don't really judge Christians for it, but I did initially wonder how that aligned with some of the things I heard preached when I was at Liberty U. There was an entire service where they talked about Jesus throwing out the money handlers and then I kid you not passed the collection plate.

I understand that means something different to Christians but as a Jew (which was a first I think) there I thought it was really really weird. Even now it feels weird. I think it's ok to be uncomfortable with the membership dues but it's equally ok to be critical of passing the collection plate which many of you seem to think is ok and not filled with pressure. (And as I pointed out bringing my biases in feels really inappropriate at a religious service). I think the dues feels weird and worse because there is a lot more members with a Christian and a culturally Christian background who are assuming things like membership means the same thing.

Eta: repetitive postings are because I am chatting with husband and he is making me think of things. He also was surprised about the dues thing way back when and also once made a really bad Jew/money joke about me being the only poor Jew well before we were engaged. He was corrected in that and heard much of the same things many of us have said here. But he often doesn't understand a Jewish way of doing things and may have negative feelings about it because he was brought up Episcopalian so that feels normal to him.

The difference I think, is that if you say passing the collection plate seems strange, or exclusionary, or anti-biblical, or tacky -- or just plain horrible -- nobody is going to screech at you that you just don't get it, it's not your culture or background so you have no right to discuss it, that it's not the way it seems and you're a terrible ignorant bigot because of your opinion -- and you should stick to talking about what you know. And why the hell aren't you bringing up the awful way other groups collects money. And damn it , people have explained to you multiple times how your opinion is wrong - why the f don't you understand it's not your place to question things that don't concern you. Eleventy.

I'm not saying you're doing that, but some people are. In googling all this stuff I found some interesting articles. One compares the various means of collection between various churches and synagogues of similar size in different cities, where the money goes etc.

Apparently the tithing as a mandatory thing - basically the same principle as dues but on an income based scale instead of a flat rate - is mostly common only in very conservative churches.

It also sounds like some synagogues are moving away from membership dues, because it makes it harder to retain families.

My feeling about membership dues is the same as my feelings about speeding tickets. If you can't afford the ticket its quite possible you can go to court and get a reduction, or community service. But if you have a lot of money it won't even be a blip in your budget. It has a very different impact mentally and practically based solely on your financial standing. I think that's a bad system.

Tithing I have similar feelings about. I feel it's only slightly more equal -- theoretically, it should be more fair, since the amount is proportionate to income - but 10% if you're struggling is a huge amount of money and could mean the difference between basic needs and paying the tithe. 10% if you're wealthy has far less of a noticeable impact - and will actually give a tax break.

Here's a couple of the articles.

http://forward.com/articles/131095/syna ... -church-g/

http://www.rebjeff.com/blog/temple-dues-and-donts

http://ejewishphilanthropy.com/scrappin ... ase-study/

[OkToBeTakei]

Deleted because I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall. Multiple people who are actually Jewish have explained the dues system again and again and again, and it clearly isn't doing any good. Call me when people start fretting equally about how various Christian denominations levy dues and offerings from their members (which, yes, does include pledging funds, mandatory tithing and other such methods).

What the actual fuck is that about?

I do not care if you are 'Actually' right. This just sounds pretty arrogant and inflammatory. I am not fretting about how any religion levies dues or funds be it 'Christian' or 'Non-christian.' What I am fretting about is your need to react in such a way as to shut down a dialogue which ultimately may be educational to some, just because you don't like it.

In that spirit of exchanging knowledge.

And maybe it's just me, but I think passing the collection plate is tacky. But I own that's probably growing up Jewish and not being accustomed to money handling being part of a religious service. I don't really judge Christians for it, but I did initially wonder how that aligned with some of the things I heard preached when I was at Liberty U. There was an entire service where they talked about Jesus throwing out the money handlers and then I kid you not passed the collection plate.

I see your issue. It IS weird. In the catholic church they even have specially designated bags/containers for the purpose. (they get blessed before going their travels..I kid you not.) As mentioned above somewhere there is numbered/coded envelopes given to parishioners. I wonder as said before this is tax related. As a child I was fascinated as they used different colours annually. I'm deep that way.

The catholic church is pretty well off. Good real estate don't you know. There was no set amount or tithing as you say. Looking back I think it was a way for some to give as much or little anonymously, as the they could afford without being known. I can see why it may appear strange. Just as treemom says when you grow up with something it appears the norm. That which is different appears just as strange to me.

To return to the original issue regarding Chaviva. It's quite simple. The lifestyle she wishes to lead she cannot afford. Both financially and logistically. I likened her to Abigail the perfect Catholic who also cannot afford her lifestyle choices.

[nelliebelle1197]

What the actual fuck is that about?

I do not care if you are 'Actually' right. This just sounds pretty arrogant and inflammatory. I am not fretting about how any religion levies dues or funds be it 'Christian' or 'Non-christian.' What I am fretting about is your need to react in such a way as to shut down a dialogue which ultimately may be educational to some, just because you don't like it.

In that spirit of exchanging knowledge.

I see your issue. It IS weird. In the catholic church they even have specially designated bags/containers for the purpose. (they get blessed before going their travels..I kid you not.) As mentioned above somewhere there is numbered/coded envelopes given to parishioners. I wonder as said before this is tax related. As a child I was fascinated as they used different colours annually. I'm deep that way.

The catholic church is pretty well off. Good real estate don't you know. There was no set amount or tithing as you say. Looking back I think it was a way for some to give as much or little anonymously, as the they could afford without being known. I can see why it may appear strange. Just as treemom says when you grow up with something it appears the norm. That which is different appears just as strange to me.

To return to the original issue regarding Chaviva. It's quite simple. The lifestyle she wishes to lead she cannot afford. Both financially and logistically. I likened her to Abigail the perfect Catholic who also cannot afford her lifestyle choices.

I disagree with you. The problem is that someone came on this thread, read an article about one specific orthodox group in Denver, misunderstood/didn't know much about what she was talking about or the way certain words are used in the Jewish community, issued several strong, offensive opinions that described all Jews as Shylock, then dug in and refused to even consider she screwed up when people rationally tried to explain to her that she was offensive. Another poster jumped in even though s/he was even part of the issue and made themselves part of the issue and blew everything up with their own lack of comprehension. Faustian was a somewhat inflammatory and frustrated herself, with good cause. It happens.

Posters like MamaMia who were trying understand got caught in the middle.

[nelliebelle1197]

Tablet won't won't let me edit easily, but it was the language used around the discussion early on and refusal of two posters to step back and say "oh, darn, I get that" that caused the problem.

[OkToBeTakei]

I disagree with you. The problem is that someone came on this thread, read an article about one specific orthodox group in Denver, misunderstood/didn't know much about what she was talking about or the way certain words are used in the Jewish community, issued several strong, offensive opinions that described all Jews as Shylock, then dug in and refused to even consider she screwed up when people rationally tried to explain to her that she was offensive. Another poster jumped in even though s/he was even part of the issue and made themselves part of the issue and blew everything up with their own lack of comprehension. Faustian was a somewhat inflammatory and frustrated herself, with good cause. It happens.

Posters like MamaMia who were trying understand got caught in the middle.

Yes I understand that. In that case then the poster should have directed their ire specifically at said person. Not the blanket statement that lumps all together and implies that all are ignorant unless Jewish.

I understand that the poster was frustrated and lashing out but it does not further knowledge/understanding to then react thus (bolded.) It actually just will reaffirm what the original two posters were saying. Which really is NOT helpful to anybody. Least of all those trying to educate and those who are interested to listen.

[treemom]

I think part of it is that many of us are acknowledging the concerns and explaining how they are addressed. I do understand what those like Mama Mia are saying, but my the high fees being discussed seem to be an aberration and those of us with Jewish experiences have tried to explain why it might not be as bad as it sounds, but it feels like to no avail. You can't compare the membership that dues brings to say membership in many Christian churches. So I don't believe it is accurate to say you can't full participate. Of the myriad of issues I have with Judaism, dues are the one thing that bother me less because there are so many options for most people. Would I support ending dues in my religious congregation is I was still Jewish religiously (I am non religious and probably am closest to Atheistic in my beliefs)? Yes, but I would want to understand how the infrastructure, etc would be supported...what the new plan for money would be.

I don't like bacon. I find so many people in the world who insist I try it now that I try it now that I am no longer observant. They insist I will like it. I have had bacon a lot and there are a couple of ways I am ok with it or even like it in food. I have no objections to bacon, I just don't like the flavor. People often assume (if they know I was Jewish and also don't like bacon) is because I have some sort of guilty about it or its relation to kosher dietary laws. It isn't. It could be because I never had it growing up and so it tasted more foreign to my tongue. But I also didn't have cheeseburgers until I was 22 and I pretty much think they might be the most perfect food.

I think most people are asking reasonable questions and are expressing reasonable concern. At the same time it feels like my bacon dilemma. No matter how many times we explain how there are many examples of the dues not being the case, etc in all Jewish congregations is seems like there is still this idea that Jews or those who desire to convert are being denied the ability to fully celebrate their faith in their community. Has that happened? Oh I m sure of it, people are assholes all over and there are lots of Jewish assholes as much as anything else. But I don't believe that is true for many or even most Jewish congregations. It's like bacon, no matter how many times I tell people I don't like the taste they just don't believe me, they think it must be something different.

That isn't to shut down conversation. I think it's good to talk about all the ways cultures are different. I just was trying to explain that could be why there is frustration.

[stonefruit]

The point was actually that she pays money she doesn't have in order to live inside the eruv and that she should just deal or choose a more normal religion so she can afford to paythe rent and feed him.

You may be interested to know that you sound in this comment, and have sounded throughout this thread, profoundly anti-Semitic. Heads up: no religion is particularly normal.

Edit: Having caught up with this thread, I am dismayed and really hurt by the repulsive anti-Semitism, better and more eloquently called out/shut down/responded to by FaustianSlip and 2xx. On the plus side, now I have several new members to ignore?

Snark on my religion all you want, we're certainly fair game! Perhaps bear in mind that what you're snarking on has at best a tenuous relationship to the actual religion, though, and maybe FUCKING LISTEN when actual Jews are trying to explain instead of carrying on about how we're censoring you or pulling Godwin's law.

[Mama Mia]

You may be interested to know that you sound in this comment, and have sounded throughout this thread, profoundly anti-Semitic. Heads up: no religion is particularly normal.

I think the point is that many posters, including some on this thread, can and do make similar statements about a variety of religions. Often very, very....umm...stridently? Assertively? To be polite. And it's considered okay to criticize, and use that language for example, hard -core Catholics who won't even practice NFP when the mother's life is at risk, or Fundamentalist Christian's who believe it is their religious duty to beat their children or keep their adult children so sheltered they can't even go to the grocery store alone. That's pretty much the basic point of the board. But suddenly if the extremist or questionable religious practice in question is Jewish it's not? How does that make sense? I don't doubt she would have used the same " not normal" phrasing to describe any Christian sect that required lots of expenses.

For my issue with the membership dues -- I would have still not liked that flat free structure ( I don't think that's a good model for pretty much anything ---- it always disproportionately benefits the wealthy) . But would have more readily accepted the explanations that it's usually not a big deal, it's often waived, it's not required for participation and so on ---- except that in looking for membership dues , what I mostly found were lots of articles about how there actually is a lot of discussion and problems with the dues structure.

Plus the whole " concern trolling" throw out phase is just something I find idiotic on a freaking open discussion board that deals primarily with religious and societal issues. If we all stuck to talking about religions or groups we had personally been part of, or agreed mindlessly with those who had ---- it would be a pretty damn pointless forum.

[treemom]

MM,

I do wonder if a lot of the discussion is coming from those who are in congregations that are outside the norm. I don't know. I am sure there are lots of Jews who have problems with the dues structure. And certainly some of the quotes DGayle used were troubling to me.

I want to reiterate that I think it's fine to comment, judge, criticize that. I really do. I just was trying to clarify when the comparisons to other religions were not accurate.

I left Judaism as much as you can (like someone else said you can't always take the Jew out of the girl...but it probably helped i intermarried and adopted more of the cultural customs of my husband early in the marriage because of my crappy childhood in comparison to his idyllic). And I am pretty critical of it when I have chances to bitch about it to people who understand what I am bitching about so I really don't think I have an issue with criticism of it (I might because sometimes we don't notice our own weaknesses).

I have had my narcotics kick in which is why I am up at almost 3 am here and still blathering on about this. I just wanted to clarify that the bacon analogy had to do with comparing it some things to the same things in Christianity, and really. I probably didn't make sense so you can disregard it...I was on pain pills then too.

[OkToBeTakei]

To be perfectly honest I was not really interested in how Synagogues fund themselves but was really interested in reading what others were explaining. I think it's perfectly normal to compare and contrast with one's own experience. It's what human's do. I accept without taking offence when treemom said to some extent she finds passing plates tacky, it actually made me question it some. What really irks me is those who do find offence trying to shut down the conversation. There is no way of knowing how bigoted or racist somebody is, their words could be insensitive and anti-semitic through ignorance or because they really are. One fact remains nobody is likely to want to change either their ignorant state of mind or anti-semitic state by being reacted to, the way some have here. For every person who you think is not changing their mind or willing to listen and you react to, there are ten or twenty more reading who are. That's important.

Found these two interesting articles

http://forward.com/articles/131514/syna ... unlike-ch/

Discussing the issue in the US which made me wonder if it is different in other countries. I know the school system here would make faith based education somewhat an issue.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013 ... slims-jews

This because it shows what extending education and tolerance can do for a community. Two communities which can appear to some as exclusive and feared through ignorance, shining a light.

[nelliebelle1197]

I think the point is that many posters, including some on this thread, can and do make similar statements about a variety of religions. Often very, very....umm...stridently? Assertively? To be polite. And it's considered okay to criticize, and use that language for example, hard -core Catholics who won't even practice NFP when the mother's life is at risk, or Fundamentalist Christian's who believe it is their religious duty to beat their children or keep their adult children so sheltered they can't even go to the grocery store alone. That's pretty much the basic point of the board. But suddenly if the extremist or questionable religious practice in question is Jewish it's not? How does that make sense? I don't doubt she would have used the same " not normal" phrasing to describe any Christian sect that required lots of expenses.

For my issue with the membership dues -- I would have still not liked that flat free structure ( I don't think that's a good model for pretty much anything ---- it always disproportionately benefits the wealthy) . But would have more readily accepted the explanations that it's usually not a big deal, it's often waived, it's not required for participation and so on ---- except that in looking for membership dues , what I mostly found were lots of articles about how there actually is a lot of discussion and problems with the dues structure.

Plus the whole " concern trolling" throw out phase is just something I find idiotic on a freaking open discussion board that deals primarily with religious and societal issues. If we all stuck to talking about religions or groups we had personally been part of, or agreed mindlessly with those who had ---- it would be a pretty damn pointless forum.

But I think what keeps getting ignored is that the comments were not about hardcore Catholics or weird fundie Jews. The comments lumped all Jews into one category or greedy money lenders. Very few people here lump all Christians into one box. The Chaviva piece was about one particular community that is part of a particular sect of Judaism. I am not catholic but I love me some Jesuits. I would jump in and defend Jesuits if someone criticized them unfairly. I have a dear friend who is a very prominent Jesuit and he and colleagues have done some amazing things. That is not the same as crazed Abigail or tradaitionalist Catholics.

People are criticizing the membership aspect but Jews are forbidden to handle money on shabbos. So the membership is a solution that keeps the lights on and the rituals intact. And if you don't think that the collection plate unfairly benefits the richer Christian, then you have never been in a rich church. Trust me. It does.

The anti semitism comes in partially because these posters refuse to see the fact that there is still variety in Judaism, though not as much as Christianity, and that not all Jews are orthodox just like not all Christians are PeePee.

[August]

You may be interested to know that you sound in this comment, and have sounded throughout this thread, profoundly anti-Semitic. Heads up: no religion is particularly normal.

Edit: Having caught up with this thread, I am dismayed and really hurt by the repulsive anti-Semitism, better and more eloquently called out/shut down/responded to by FaustianSlip and 2xx. On the plus side, now I have several new members to ignore?

Snark on my religion all you want, we're certainly fair game! Perhaps bear in mind that what you're snarking on has at best a tenuous relationship to the actual religion, though, and maybe FUCKING LISTEN when actual Jews are trying to explain instead of carrying on about how we're censoring you or pulling Godwin's law.

Thanks for proving my point! And after a couple of people had been very reasonable, too.

Nelliebellie, (agree with first paragraph, religion is ridiculous. responding to second paragraph, can't quote for some reason) we are discussing a particular person and her particular religion. I'm glad you have an encyclopedic knowledge of religious practices, but assuming everyone does is ridiculous and ignorant. How on earth is a random person going to have any idea that this practice is shared between fundies and other jewish groups? How is someone who's not deeply interested going to know that 'greedy money lenders' is a stereotype? You would have to actually be taught that stereotype to know it, and the vast majority of people simply aren't. And going off at people for valid criticism without first stopping to explain why you're super-sensitive about it is just ridiculous. Would you shout at a Japanese person for commenting on your red headed freckles or your black hair texture? Or would you gently tell them it's a sore point for you and please don't mention it?

All that needed to be done was for people to say "it's against the rules to handle money on the sabbath, so the collection to pay the rabbi and maintain the building needs to be taken up on another day. Oh, and because in the middle ages christians were forbidden from collecting interest, the only people who could lend money were jewish. People hate owing money to anyone, so this created a lot of bad feeling, and a stereotype of the jewish moneylender was born. People can be sensitive because of this". It's not that hard, and creates understanding instead of hatred and dismissiveness. Five minutes on google got me this info, but most people wouldn't look.

Stonefruit, do you want a more understanding, peaceful world, or is it more fun and dramatic for you to imagine yourself persecuted?

And on the topic of normality in religion, are you delusional? Heard of Jinger? Kid whose clothes, education and entire life are constrained by ridiculous and damaging religious rules? That ain't normal. Sure, people who go to a religious place a few days a year aren't 100% normal either, but they're far closer to it than Chaviva or JimBob or Abigail or Kelly Chicken Breasts are. (Or Jimmy Swaggart, for that matter. I mean, simply mentioning televangelists would have won the argument without being all ridiculous)

[Peas n carrots]

Just wanted to chime in that at least where I live, temples come in a wide scale of fees. The one who my DH works closely with the Rabbi is one of the most tony, asking $40K annually. The membership reflects it as well...most of the folks would recognize some of the famous names who are members. On the other hand, one of my friends grew up with a single mom and they attended a temple that met at a high school gymnasium...the members were generally lower income and the fees were more accessible for those folks. However these temples I refer to are Reform so I'm unsure if there is such a wide variety to choose from fee wise in the Orthodox community, much less Denver in Chaviva's case.

I would like to ask a question to the Jewish FJ'ers here...do you feel there is an enormous pressure to give financially in some communities? My husband works for a Jewish non-profit and deals with very wealthy donors who he has become friendly with over the years. Some of the donors have expressed concerns to my husband about their children choosing career paths where they may not have the income to be able to meet some of the membership fees for certain temples, much less contribute financially to various Jewish charities. I'm not sure if this is something Jews who are not of the high income brackets encounter or if this is more of a by-product of the amount of wealth the donors my husband deals with has.