Jessa and Bin getting married is really bothering me

[CorruptionInc.]

Hot or not, he'll still be stupid. Can't deal with stupid.

Defintely agree stupidity is a deal breaker.

[amster]

My impression of Ben from almost the beginning is that he's the type who will become abusive once the honeymoon is over. He just gives off that vibe to me. Like, why be so over-the-top traditionally romantic with a girl who isn't into that stuff at all? Guys who do that don't see women as actual human beings, they just have a super generic idea of what "female" means and go with that. Once the day-to-day realities of married life hit and her realizes that Jessa is actually a person separate from him Ben is not going to take it well.

(Full disclosure: I think ANY man who chooses that lifestyle--who becomes MORE religious and into Christian patriarchy than they were growing up--have a high likelihood of being abusers. There's not other reason for a man to find that life appealing other than he's a controlling asshole who wants a good little woman catering to his needs. So for all the love Derrick gets around here, I look at him with a very jaundiced eye.)

Sorry to go OT here, but this is exactly what I think about Stephen Hammer, Meredith's husband. He gives me the chills. There is something not right, and I honestly think he is capable of hurting Meredith. And because she has been brought up to believe that he is her headship and she is his helpmeet around the house, she won't say anything. She will keep her sweet, cheerful exterior, and keep churning out cheesecakes and jams.

Topic? I said right from the beginning that I didn't trust Derrick, and I still don't trust either him or Ben.

[Free Them All]

Ben has trouble forming his thoughts into words and complete sentences......I think he needs to grow up a little more.

[SassyPants]

Ben has trouble forming his thoughts into words and complete sentences......I think he needs to grow up a little more.

He is in a horrible situation. His parents put potential money and fame ahead of his longterm health and sanity. Shame on them.

[ADoyle90815]

yes!! yes yes - I so hope these guys stay good to them but I have just also been very worried about abuse starting from being on their high throne. And they CHOOSE to accept that role? Just - worrisome.

I do think Ben seems like the type who will become abusive, and that showed when he grabbed Jessa away from the groomsman to walk her back down the aisle. To me, that raised a red flag when I saw him do that at the wedding.

[jenzia1]

I actually think Ben grabbed Jessa with more grace than Josh grabbed Anna. It looked like he stopped to shake the grooman's hand; I thought it was cute. Josh was just copying him and ended up looking like an ass. I also liked Jessa standing up to Jim-Bob with the "but you don't want us to elope" statement. I think they've been discussing that (threatening elopement?) if JB didn't let them get married soon. It makes me like them both a little better.

[CorruptionInc.]

I actually think Ben grabbed Jessa with more grace than Josh grabbed Anna. It looked like he stopped to shake the grooman's hand; I thought it was cute. Josh was just copying him and ended up looking like an ass. I also liked Jessa standing up to Jim-Bob with the "but you don't want us to elope" statement. I think they've been discussing that (threatening elopement?) if JB didn't let them get married soon. It makes me like them both a little better.

Smug - 1 step forward (move to DC) - 10 steps backward (he's still a douche)

[musikat]

I really keep trying to come up with reasons of how Ben passed the Jim Bob approval test and I'm just coming up with "dumb male willing to do what I say". Which now that I think about it makes perfect sense how he passed the Jim Bob approval test.

Back in my naive days I liked Jessa but this season alone has proven how full of herself she is. Surely THAT can't be Godly. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[BrownieMomma]

I really keep trying to come up with reasons of how Ben passed the Jim Bob approval test and I'm just coming up with "dumb male willing to do what I say". Which now that I think about it makes perfect sense how he passed the Jim Bob approval test.

Back in my naive days I liked Jessa but this season alone has proven how full of herself she is. Surely THAT can't be Godly. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

He's also a hot fundie male to Jessa's hot fundie female. They look good together.

I'd like to see a devoted black Christian guy indicate to Daddy Duggar that he'd like to court one of his daughters. ahahahaha head explosion there for sure

[Laurene]

Jessa and Ben will have a covenant marriage just like Jill and Derick.. it is a BIG mistake !

[lascuba]

Wait, is covenant marriage a thing that actually means something legally? I thought it was just fundie speak for, "Our marriage is so much better than others!" the same way "courtship" is. I'm sure in their minds it's a super special thing, except not really because they're already big on the "no divorce no matter what" idea. I don't understand why it's actually better in their eyes or worse in the eyes of normal people, unless it's something that can be held up in court, and as stupidly backwards as this country is about a lot of stuff I don't want to believe that "covenant marriage" is something that a judge will enforce.

[BrownieMomma]

Wait, is covenant marriage a thing that actually means something legally? I thought it was just fundie speak for, "Our marriage is so much better than others!" the same way "courtship" is. I'm sure in their minds it's a super special thing, except not really because they're already big on the "no divorce no matter what" idea. I don't understand why it's actually better in their eyes or worse in the eyes of normal people, unless it's something that can be held up in court, and as stupidly backwards as this country is about a lot of stuff I don't want to believe that "covenant marriage" is something that a judge will enforce.

In Arkansas, it's a legal form of marriage.

[shedemei]

Arizona and Louisiana have it too.

Here's the Arkansas law.

ftp://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/acts/2001/htm/ACT1486.pdf

[DGayle]

Their relationship is unsettling. If there's any real chemistry, they're hiding it very well. I can't help wondering if their courtship was orchestrated, and neither of them have the maturity to say no. If that's not it, then it's probably him being amazed at getting a small-time celebrity, and her being head over heels that someone has the hots for her, regardless of reason.

If they weren't fundies, this is a relationship I could see having a pool over how long before the divorce. I've give the 2 1/2 years. But since they're fundies, I foresee a lot of misery and too much pride to split up.

[DGayle]

It doesn't make me sad, it makes me angry. At some point you (not you Jellybeans, just you in general!) have to stop blaming her upbringing and realize she is a person who can say no and not do any of this. I know it's hard, nearly impossible probably, but that line is having children. She should not, cannot be forced to have a zillion children. She needs to grow up, get some balls and say no to it if she doesn't want it. And if she really doesn't want it, maybe she should do a little Andrea Yates research and see how badly it can turn out.

I think it would be easier for most of these girls (Jana is stuck) to get out than the typical fundy. They have access to people who could help them. For one, Anna's got sisters who got out who would probably help. For another, I think JB&M are aware of the cameras on them, so wouldn't do anything about a kid leaving the lifestyle that would make them look bad.

[DGayle]

For all their talk of modesty it seems pretty clear Jim Bob is selling Jessa to Ben for ratings.

This sort of thing is why I wonder how much JB really really loves his kids. What kind of loving dad is excited over a relationship that lacks any chemistry or common interests? But there are ratings at stake, and money.

[SassyPants]

I think it would be easier for most of these girls (Jana is stuck) to get out than the typical fundy. They have access to people who could help them. For one, Anna's got sisters who got out who would probably help. For another, I think JB&M are aware of the cameras on them, so wouldn't do anything about a kid leaving the lifestyle that would make them look bad.

Much easier to get out, if you're an adult without a headship. JB is not going to be able to hold Jana hostage much longer. Let's face it, he's not Steve M. Maybe this is Jana's plan- wait it out for a little longer, than just lay it on the line...I'm outta here. I secured myself a job in X Baptist Church over in North Carolina. I used money I saved from gifts that I have received over the years and have rented an apartment. I understand If you do not support my choices, although I hope you will. In addition, Jinger has an interview with a local photographer and will likely be joining me in the near future. Thank you for understanding that I only have 1 life and it's mine to live.

[SassyPants]

This sort of thing is why I wonder how much JB really really loves his kids. What kind of loving dad is excited over a relationship that lacks any chemistry or common interests? But there are ratings at stake, and money.

I think JB loves the kids, but he might just love money, fame and attention if not as much, perhaps even more.

Down deep, JB is insecure.

[LongDogMom]

Usually, the prospect of a young, inexperienced couple deciding to marry freaks the hell out of parents....These people are being cheated! The whole courtship to engagement to marriage path is so judgemental, limiting, and wide open for abuse. What stops a parent from just forcing a young person to marry somebody completely awful? Sure, there are many eyes on the Duggars and the Batesesssess but there are far more fundie young ones who are at the private mercies of parents and elders.It's sad BinJessa can't backpack across Europe on their own. Or go away to college and live in dorms, join clubs, and enjoy their independence. Or at least hang out together without a chaperone and figure out if this relationship really has legs.

Exactly, they should be having fun, backpacking around Europe before going off to University to pursue their dreams. This whole courtship thing with the no-touching/purity pressures just feels off - like they aren't living in reality. I think it's sad because it's all they know.

I came across a blog post today from someone talking about Ben and Jessa's courtship and how much it upset her because she used to be in the same kind of courtship -

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/permission ... er862.html

Some of what she wrote really resonated and made me feel even more worried for Jessa and Ben:

"Reading the articles where they are portrayed as a young couple making a quaint and cute (albeit different) choice when it comes to romance. And then reading the comments where clueless person after clueless person gushes admiration for the “values†and praises them for being “role models.†My heart rate goes up. I close my laptop. I try not to think about it, but still end up feeling vaguely sad. Because I know the rest of the story, I lived it. I know the stuff that the news articles and the commenters don’t know. How a girl in this movement is told throughout her upbringing that her sole purpose in life is to be a quiet, peaceful, submissive and happy “keeper-at-homeâ€. She has spent her whole life training to be the perfect wife, she knows how to cook, bake, clean, sew, care for children, and so much more, but she still feels as though she will never be good enough to deserve the attention of a godly man. She knows nothing about her body, perhaps not even the names of her private body parts much less how they function. Sex is a mostly mysterious act that she will learn more about after being safely married, because delving into that beforehand would perhaps tempt her to explore her own body and awaken urges that are supposed to stay asleep until married. Or maybe this forbidden knowledge would make her curious, and open her mind to trying things and compromise her purity with a touch or a kiss. She has been taught that sex is far more important for men, they have a physical need for it. As a woman in general she has a responsibility to shield men from temptation by covering her body with high necklines, long skirts, dull colors and shapeless fabric. As a wife it will be her responsibility to be enthusiastically available for her husband at any time, without immediate access to sex, her husband could be tempted into infidelity or pornography, which would be mostly her fault for not meeting his needs. She has no idea what birth control does, other than it “causes abortions†and marital discord, and promotes selfishness and greediness.

A girl in this movement is told she does not have the capacity to make decisions about her life, especially her romantic life. She cannot trust herself, she must lean completely on her parents to screen everything and nudge (or shove) her in the “right†direction, because making a mistake could have dire consequences. Her purity is precious. If she slips up and gives anything to the wrong man, she is like a used Kleenex, a piece of chewed gum, a cup of water that many other people have spit in. No one will want her, and rightfully so in this mindset! Even a flirtation, or an emotional connection, much less actual physical contact of any kind, could render her impure, broken, and less desireable. It is far safer to let someone else make the choices for you.

Growing up like this, you hardly know who you are, what you like or what you are interested in. You know who you are supposed to be, and you have been striving to play that part your entire life. That role is so important to you that you would defend it to the hilt, even when you aren’t fully sure why. You believe in that person, that woman that you are supposed to become someday, if you are godly enough. You don’t even ask what you want or need, the thought would hardly occur to you. You don’t need to wonder or question or explore, you have a blueprint to follow. Since you have no idea who you are, you aren’t looking for a soul mate, someone you get along with, or someone you are attracted to. You are waiting for someone who fits the blueprint, someone your dad will allow you to consider."

Such a good article! She goes on to talk about her own courtship, her own wedding and wedding night and how awkward it was. How difficult marriage was when you had both been so sheltered and knew so little and you essentially children. And she talks about the kinds of problems that exist with this kind of arrangement that no one who supports it wants to acknoweldge:

"When you live sheltered to that extent, there are things you haven’t learned about yet, things you don’t know about yourself or your partner that you will have to address later in your relationship. Your parents claim that this lifestyle makes for maturity, but you have experienced so little, been allowed to make so few mistakes, that you are still emotionally a child in many ways. A child with all the responsibilities of an adult, married to another child/adult."

It's a very sad essay of life from someone who really lived it and knows, and how hurtful it is when she sees all the commenters supporting the old fashioned values of the Duggars and how wonderful the idea of courtship is. She exposes the reality behind the Fundie Fairytale. Worth a read.

That said, tomorrow is their big day. I hope that Jessa and Ben are lucky enough to grow in the same direction and that the relationship grows and expands rather than turns into one of abuse. I hope they learn to let go of the strict rules a little bit and explore the world. Good luck to them.

[DGayle]

i think i've brought this up before, too, but honestly, even if some sort of contraception is used, if it's god's will they get pregnant, wouldn't he be able to overcome that obstacle? is their powerful god that they depend on for eternal salvation really undone by pills, patches, rings, or injections of hormones, or condoms, or diaphragms, etc.? that doesn't sound like an all-powerful god to me...

Agreed. Supposedly Mary was a virgin (yet she was married?), and even that didn't stop Dog.

[SassyPants]

Exactly, they should be having fun, backpacking around Europe before going off to University to pursue their dreams. This whole courtship thing with the no-touching/purity pressures just feels off - like they aren't living in reality. I think it's sad because it's all they know.

I came across a blog post today from someone talking about Ben and Jessa's courtship and how much it upset her because she used to be in the same kind of courtship -

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/permission ... er862.html

Some of what she wrote really resonated and made me feel even more worried for Jessa and Ben:

"Reading the articles where they are portrayed as a young couple making a quaint and cute (albeit different) choice when it comes to romance. And then reading the comments where clueless person after clueless person gushes admiration for the “values†and praises them for being “role models.†My heart rate goes up. I close my laptop. I try not to think about it, but still end up feeling vaguely sad. Because I know the rest of the story, I lived it. I know the stuff that the news articles and the commenters don’t know. How a girl in this movement is told throughout her upbringing that her sole purpose in life is to be a quiet, peaceful, submissive and happy “keeper-at-homeâ€. She has spent her whole life training to be the perfect wife, she knows how to cook, bake, clean, sew, care for children, and so much more, but she still feels as though she will never be good enough to deserve the attention of a godly man. She knows nothing about her body, perhaps not even the names of her private body parts much less how they function. Sex is a mostly mysterious act that she will learn more about after being safely married, because delving into that beforehand would perhaps tempt her to explore her own body and awaken urges that are supposed to stay asleep until married. Or maybe this forbidden knowledge would make her curious, and open her mind to trying things and compromise her purity with a touch or a kiss. She has been taught that sex is far more important for men, they have a physical need for it. As a woman in general she has a responsibility to shield men from temptation by covering her body with high necklines, long skirts, dull colors and shapeless fabric. As a wife it will be her responsibility to be enthusiastically available for her husband at any time, without immediate access to sex, her husband could be tempted into infidelity or pornography, which would be mostly her fault for not meeting his needs. She has no idea what birth control does, other than it “causes abortions†and marital discord, and promotes selfishness and greediness.

A girl in this movement is told she does not have the capacity to make decisions about her life, especially her romantic life. She cannot trust herself, she must lean completely on her parents to screen everything and nudge (or shove) her in the “right†direction, because making a mistake could have dire consequences. Her purity is precious. If she slips up and gives anything to the wrong man, she is like a used Kleenex, a piece of chewed gum, a cup of water that many other people have spit in. No one will want her, and rightfully so in this mindset! Even a flirtation, or an emotional connection, much less actual physical contact of any kind, could render her impure, broken, and less desireable. It is far safer to let someone else make the choices for you.

Growing up like this, you hardly know who you are, what you like or what you are interested in. You know who you are supposed to be, and you have been striving to play that part your entire life. That role is so important to you that you would defend it to the hilt, even when you aren’t fully sure why. You believe in that person, that woman that you are supposed to become someday, if you are godly enough. You don’t even ask what you want or need, the thought would hardly occur to you. You don’t need to wonder or question or explore, you have a blueprint to follow. Since you have no idea who you are, you aren’t looking for a soul mate, someone you get along with, or someone you are attracted to. You are waiting for someone who fits the blueprint, someone your dad will allow you to consider."

Such a good article! She goes on to talk about her own courtship, her own wedding and wedding night and how awkward it was. How difficult marriage was when you had both been so sheltered and knew so little and you essentially children. And she talks about the kinds of problems that exist with this kind of arrangement that no one who supports it wants to acknoweldge:

"When you live sheltered to that extent, there are things you haven’t learned about yet, things you don’t know about yourself or your partner that you will have to address later in your relationship. Your parents claim that this lifestyle makes for maturity, but you have experienced so little, been allowed to make so few mistakes, that you are still emotionally a child in many ways. A child with all the responsibilities of an adult, married to another child/adult."

It's a very sad essay of life from someone who really lived it and knows, and how hurtful it is when she sees all the commenters supporting the old fashioned values of the Duggars and how wonderful the idea of courtship is. She exposes the reality behind the Fundie Fairytale. Worth a read.

That said, tomorrow is their big day. I hope that Jessa and Ben are lucky enough to grow in the same direction and that the relationship grows and expands rather than turns into one of abuse. I hope they learn to let go of the strict rules a little bit and explore the world. Good luck to them.

Jessa is doubly screwed because from what we've seen, she was not even properly trained to be a good homemaker.

Again, such a large number of children cannot be properly cared for, nurtured, mentored, taught, loved and raised by 2 people. Not possible.

[DGayle]

Sorry to go OT here, but this is exactly what I think about Stephen Hammer, Meredith's husband. He gives me the chills. There is something not right, and I honestly think he is capable of hurting Meredith. And because she has been brought up to believe that he is her headship and she is his helpmeet around the house, she won't say anything. She will keep her sweet, cheerful exterior, and keep churning out cheesecakes and jams.

Stephen freaks me out. I can't get over how he was trolling along on the internet, reading blogs like he was picking out a bride who didn't know him, and that's what he did. He found her through her blog, and bada bing, bada boom, married and she's gone from everyone she knows.

[lascuba]

You guys have totally depressed me with the information on covenant marriage. It shouldn't surprise me considering those states, but damn, it's just bonkers. Here's hoping for a high-profile clusterfuck that will lead to the courts striking it down. Any lawyers around that can comment on the constitutionality?

[Coco]

I came across a blog post today from someone talking about Ben and Jessa's courtship and how much it upset her because she used to be in the same kind of courtship -

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/permission ... er862.html

Some of what she wrote really resonated and made me feel even more worried for Jessa and Ben:

"You don’t even ask what you want or need, the thought would hardly occur to you. You don’t need to wonder or question or explore, you have a blueprint to follow. Since you have no idea who you are, you aren’t looking for a soul mate, someone you get along with, or someone you are attracted to. You are waiting for someone who fits the blueprint, someone your dad will allow you to consider."

wow -- that's the saddest thing about the whole mess.

And for the girls who discover later that who they really are is worlds apart from the ideal, well they're in for years of misery. Or divorce and shame; but most of them aren't strong enough to take that plunge and be shunned by their communities. So they die inside.

(cue the titus 2 women like Lori Alexander spouting the "I die daily" verses about wifely self-sacrifice)

[JHeathen]

You guys have totally depressed me with the information on covenant marriage. It shouldn't surprise me considering those states, but damn, it's just bonkers. Here's hoping for a high-profile clusterfuck that will lead to the courts striking it down. Any lawyers around that can comment on the constitutionality?

But it's voluntary. You can have a "regular" marriage in those states, too.