Adrian Peterson and the Pearl method of abuse

[Toothfairy]

And what if the spanking doesn't work and the teen's behavior gets worse? Do you spank harder? What if that doesn't work? Do you beat them to death (that would technically solve the problem) or shoot them, or do you find another solution that doesn't involve hitting? One of the problems with using violence as a punishment is that if it doesn't work you just keep escalating and it can get dangerous.

I'm kinda against all punishment, but lets say that I decide to use grounding on my teen. I ground her for a weekend and she's still naughty. I ground her for a week and she still misbehaves. I totally lose my temper and tell her she's grounded for the whole year. The next day I cool down and realize that I behaved stupidly, then I can take it back and tell her that while I'm disappointed with her behavior, she's only going to be grounded for a week and a half. If I had decided to use spanking, I wouldn't be able to take back hitting a child too hard or too many times. I wouldn't be able to take back missing a teen's buttocks when I swung that paddle as hard as I could and accidentally shattered her tailbone. Violence is dangerous.

I had a friend who worked as a switch (both submissive and dominant) at a BDSM dungeon. Before being able to dom, she had to do an internship (several weeks) with an experienced dom and pass a proficiency test. They don't just let anyone come in and start beating on a customer, because that would be dangerous!

If spanking your kid doesn't work then I will happily sign my rights away. Like I said the parent is the parent the child is the child. You don't want to follow my rules then get out!

[Toothfairy]

Adults are too spoiled in this generation! They crash housing markets, make child pornography, injure their children when their meth labs explode (I lived in Arkansas!), and beat their own children because they're too lazy to discipline gently or because they can't control their temper tantrums.

If spanking is soooo helpful as behavior modification, then why don't we just :spank: these people instead of sending them through the justice system (which is also wildly ineffective, but that's another topic)? It would save a lot of taxpayer money. Why does spanking magically stop working when a person turns 18?

Spanking is discipline. Spanking doesn't make a parent lazy it shows a parent cares for their children. Children of this generation are spoiled and even adults are spoiled raising spoiled children. The real world will chew you up and spit you out in a second. I don't understand why people are so scared to discipline their kid these days. Correct the behavior now or it might get worse.

[Firiel]

If spanking your kid doesn't work then I will happily sign my rights away. Like I said the parent is the parent the child is the child. You don't want to follow my rules then get out!

The problem is that people say this about abusive corporal punishment. It's THEIR kid, so they get to hit him as hard as they damn-well please. Kids are people, not possessions. They are young people and need to be taught how to be functioning adults, and it is in part the parents' decision on the best way to raise a functioning adult.

But those rights end somewhere. In most places, a parent can't just "decide" that the best way to raise an adult is to keep them from all educational opportunities. Or to keep them from all human contact. Or to cut off their arm or to refuse to feed them. Where that line is is where the questions arise.

I was spanked periodically and moderately by my parents. Do I feel I was abused? No, I don't. But it's problematic because Adrian Peterson is saying exactly the same thing my parents would have said if they had been (unduly, IMO) arrested for child abuse-- that he was just disciplining them so they could grow up to be functioning adults. It's problematic because "spanking" (which I don't think is always abusive) gives abusers an umbrella of protection and an excuse for their behavior, in the same way that the general doctrine of submission (not inherently abusive, IMO-- see Sheila of To Love, Honor, and Vacuum, for instance) often works as an excuse and justification for emotional spousal abuse (see Cabinetman).

And spanking is not the only way to discipline a child. I have met well-behaved, well-adjusted kids and adults who were never spanked. If you can raise a kid without hitting them, why would you want to hit them anyway?

EDIT: And if anyone thinks it's okay to beat a four-year-old until the child is bloody, then, well, I would be tempted to say that person is worse than Ken and Lori Alexander. At least they tried not to bruise their children. :angry-banghead:

EDIT 2: Sentences are hard.

[docmom]

Spanking has been outlawed in Sweden since the late 1970s. When the law was put into effect about half of all children were spanked. Now it's just a few percent. Has Sweden seen a mass uprising of out of control teens? Are its citizens living in fear of marauding gangs of unruly children? No.

Can you actually raise nice kids without hitting them? Yes.

[happy atheist]

I was disappointed in Leonard Pitts' column about this topic.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2014/09/21/2 ... nd-is.html

Apparently he doesn't consider himself an abuse victim, even though his mom whipped him with Hotwheels tracks :shock:

A "switch," for those who don't know, is a long twig. I should know, having been on the receiving end of quite a few. When no switch was available, mom was also known to employ a section of the orange plastic track from my Hot Wheels.

Admittedly, a few of the "child abusers" I knew were bad and neglectful parents back in that era before "parent" was a verb, but most were caring and attentive people who scraped and sacrificed so their kids might have better than they themselves ever did. My own mother - you may take my word for this - was the best mother in the history of mothering, fixer of scrapes, keeper of confidences, stretcher of dollars, listener of prayers, critic of a certain budding writer's earliest work. And, yes, a spanker of behinds when the owners of said behinds got too outrageously out of line.

I don't write any of this in defense of Peterson, by the way; I have no idea of the severity of the punishment he gave his child. No, I'm just here to express the sense of dislocation, of sheer, unadulterated "Huh?!?" that comes with hearing that the best mother in the history of mothering was a child abuser. But Peterson's critics have been very clear.

"Spanking isn't parenting; it's child abuse," goes a headline on CNN's website.

"Violence is violence," argues a piece on Bleacher Report.

Sorry, but that's going to be a hard sell for me - and for the three other people my mom raised successfully, and essentially alone, in the gang- and poverty-ridden slums of Los Angeles.

[Firiel]

I was disappointed in Leonard Pitts' column about this topic.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2014/09/21/2 ... nd-is.html

Apparently he doesn't consider himself an abuse victim, even though his mom whipped him with Hotwheels tracks :shock:

As for the red in the text... GOOGLE IT, ASSHOLE.

Seriously. I wanted to know what I was dealing with if this topic came up in real life, so I Googled the picture of the son's injuries. It's easy to tell that this kid was switched until he was bloody. It's like he's purposefully not looking at the information so he can offer a half-assed excuse for hitting kids.

[EmmieJ]

The cycle ended with me and my siblings. Not one of us raised a hand to discipline any child. There comes a time when we have to stand on our own two feet and stop using how we were raised as an excuse to hit another human. It is not right. Full stop.

The cycle can be broken, and thankfully there are those who consciously choose that path. Others may automatically repeat what they learned at the hands of their own parents, but that's why this discussion is so important. Hopefully, some parents who still use corporal punishment might now re-think their choices and try to stop the cycle now.

I was occasionally spanked as a child. It wasn't extreme, no implements other than a hand were used, and I never had welts, bruises, or otherwise anything but a sore behind for a little while. However, that still caused damage to my relationship with my father - the one who usually administered the spankings. It's the mere fact of hitting your child that is wrong, whether it was a mild spanking or a severe beating. Yes, the severe beating is worse, but both are wrong. I chose not to use corporal punishment; my other siblings who have children have done the same.

[EmmieJ]

Everyone thinks of spanking/hitting or even shoving soap in a kid's mouth when they think of corporal punishment, and I am totally against those.

I have a soft spot for push-ups or running as punishment though, and technically that's also corporal punishment. I don't think I'd use it on my kids, because I don't think it's very effective unless the reason the kid is being "punished" is because they have too much energy, and then it's not "punishment" as much as a method of helping them deal with their energy. Some stupid parents have killed their kids by making them run way too much or in heat or without water, so it can be dangerous if the person applying it is an idiot. It's still my favorite punishment to receive though :)

I had not thought of push ups or making your kids run around the block as corporal punishment. I thought corporal punishment involved physical contact with the body - spanking, hitting, pinching, whatever.

My parents didn't use this method, but I had a good friend also from a large Catholic family, and her mom would make the kids run laps around the house when they were misbehaving. As you point out, if the parent is a sadist or just plain idiotic, that form of punishment can take a deadly turn. But the way my friend's mom used it, it might be five laps around the house. Her goal was mainly to get them to burn off some energy and hopefully their behavior would calm down.

[EmmieJ]

I'm not against beating your kid if they really need it. Like an older child maybe pre teen teen years beating on their parents or acting like they're grown. I've seen it before. I think for a 4yo, using a switch was un nessasory. At that age a spanking or time out would've been fine. And you should never beat your kids when you're angry.

I too hope you are just trolling for a response. "If they really need it." If my child started hitting me, I would seek professional help immediately (for both of us!). That would be a huge red flag that something is dreadfully wrong. My son has never raised his hand to me - so it would be absolutely shocking should it happen. I would not respond in kind - how is that making the situation better? It's only escalating the violence.

We tell men - "if your girlfriend or wife hits you, don't respond in kind." I would say the same to parents. Get your child into some counseling immediately - find out why their anger is spiraling out of control. Are drugs involved? Maybe they are going through something very traumatic that is causing them to have pent up rage. Maybe they are having mental issues. What the heck is happening with them? That's what parents need to do - look for the root of the problem, not respond with further violence.

[EmmieJ]

If spanking your kid doesn't work then I will happily sign my rights away. Like I said the parent is the parent the child is the child. You don't want to follow my rules then get out!

So you basically wash your hands of your child. To heck with "unconditional love" and all that nonsense right? You didn't do anything wrong in the way you raised your child -- they just somehow turned out all messed up, acting out, having sex for money, and behaving violently --- but you didn't have any role in that at all?

I can see you don't want to even consider that poor parenting and/or a dysfunctional home life might be what brings out such behaviors in children. Maybe that hits too close to home.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Spanking is discipline. Spanking doesn't make a parent lazy it shows a parent cares for their children. Children of this generation are spoiled and even adults are spoiled raising spoiled children. The real world will chew you up and spit you out in a second. I don't understand why people are so scared to discipline their kid these days. Correct the behavior now or it might get worse.

My kids get plenty of discipline - it just doesn't involve spanking. They have a longer school day, with more courses, than most kids, and they've learned to organize themselves to keep up with the work. They follow rules that are often stricter than their friends' (some of which are religious), and I can trust them to read labels on food packages to determine if a food is acceptable, stay away from all electronics on Saturdays, speak respectfully with no swearing, and do other things that even adults find hard.

Discipline is about guiding and teaching a child, and building the habits and values that they will need for life. There's nothing about that which requires pain.

My 14 yr old is also taller than me. I'm not going to get physical with her. That would actually diminish my authority. Either a teen would fight back, or the teen is so controlled by other factors (like respect for a parent, fear of sinning, realizing that the parent controls everything, not wanting to leave the family, etc.) that getting physical was never necessary at all. I can cancel her phone or change the WiFi password at any time - that's all the threat I need.

Sometimes, as a last resort, a parent really does need to get outside help for their child and even consider a residential placement. I wouldn't consider any of these things "happily", and I would still be there for my child to monitor progress and welcome them when things improved.

[It'sFunToRun]

If spanking your kid doesn't work then I will happily sign my rights away. Like I said the parent is the parent the child is the child. You don't want to follow my rules then get out!

If spanking your kid doesn't work then I will happily sign my rights away.

So you have one trick in your bag and if it doesn't work, you don't want to parent anymore?

Like I said the parent is the parent the child is the child.

That's called a truism, btw.

{L_OFFTOPIC} :

Truism: Noun. A statement that is obviously true and says nothing new or interesting.

[TXGirlInAMaterialWorld]

My two cents- Pearl style beatings are for lazy parents. It takes time and commitment to have the type of relationship where a child respects their parent. It takes time to correct them in a productive manner.

People like the Pearls (and my parents!) would rather just fly off the handle and beat you with a switch, belt or line until you can barely sit for days. It's about control and lazy parenting. They want to deal with the situation swiftly and move on.

My sister did the same to her kids until my mom broke down and cried and said that she now realized the way we were punished was not right- that we were spanked too hard and too often in the heat of anger. My mouth literally fell open. It seriously gives me hope that someday my family will change.

As far as Peterson stating that he just used the type of punishment he received as a child- he was raised by felons and is no prize himself. He may be good on the football field but has been up to all kinds of shenanigans off the field for years. He should seriously take a step back and model his parenting after someone who is NOT in his gene pool.

[Toothfairy]

So you basically wash your hands of your child. To heck with "unconditional love" and all that nonsense right? You didn't do anything wrong in the way you raised your child -- they just somehow turned out all messed up, acting out, having sex for money, and behaving violently --- but you didn't have any role in that at all?

I can see you don't want to even consider that poor parenting and/or a dysfunctional home life might be what brings out such behaviors in children. Maybe that hits too close to home.

No it doesn't hit close to home.Every parent has their limits. Everyone is saying on this thread speaking is wrong so what else is there to do with an out of control teen. Sit back and let them control you. Of course every parent should have unconditional love for their kid and spanking then or teaching them a lesson is showing them love. It shows that you care. Every action has a reaction if a child reaction. If a child wants to act grown then they can act grown on their own. Maybe a taste of the real world will wake them up. And you can't put every child in a box. Some kids come from good homes and still act out. Things that work for one child might not work for another.

[Toothfairy]

My kids get plenty of discipline - it just doesn't involve spanking. They have a longer school day, with more courses, than most kids, and they've learned to organize themselves to keep up with the work. They follow rules that are often stricter than their friends' (some of which are religious), and I can trust them to read labels on food packages to determine if a food is acceptable, stay away from all electronics on Saturdays, speak respectfully with no swearing, and do other things that even adults find hard.

Discipline is about guiding and teaching a child, and building the habits and values that they will need for life. There's nothing about that which requires pain.

My 14 yr old is also taller than me. I'm not going to get physical with her. That would actually diminish my authority. Either a teen would fight back, or the teen is so controlled by other factors (like respect for a parent, fear of sinning, realizing that the parent controls everything, not wanting to leave the family, etc.) that getting physical was never necessary at all. I can cancel her phone or change the WiFi password at any time - that's all the threat I need.

Sometimes, as a last resort, a parent really does need to get outside help for their child and even consider a residential placement. I wouldn't consider any of these things "happily", and I would still be there for my child to monitor progress and welcome them when things improved.

What works for your child may not work for others.

[Toothfairy]

I too hope you are just trolling for a response. "If they really need it." If my child started hitting me, I would seek professional help immediately (for both of us!). That would be a huge red flag that something is dreadfully wrong. My son has never raised his hand to me - so it would be absolutely shocking should it happen. I would not respond in kind - how is that making the situation better? It's only escalating the violence.

We tell men - "if your girlfriend or wife hits you, don't respond in kind." I would say the same to parents. Get your child into some counseling immediately - find out why their anger is spiraling out of control. Are drugs involved? Maybe they are going through something very traumatic that is causing them to have pent up rage. Maybe they are having mental issues. What the heck is happening with them? That's what parents need to do - look for the root of the problem, not respond with further violence.

So you're just going to allow a child to hit you? Of course there might be other issues going on but that is no excuse for their behavior. Teens know right from wrong. If therapy doesn't work or taking things away doesn't work what's the next step? Sit there and let it happen?

[docmom]

What works for your child may not work for others.

Nobody is suggesting that one strategy works for all kids. I'm just not at all sure that any strategy need include physical punishment. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that you had a kid that you could not spank. Say he had a medical condition that would result in severe bruising or even life-threatening bleeding from spanking. What would you do? Would you throw up your hands in despair and say there is no way to discipline this child or would you look for non-physical alternatives? And if it's the latter, why not do that for every child?

[Mama Mia]

I have to take exception to this. Mr, Three is as Latino is anyone could be - he's from Puerto Rico, and Spanish is his first language. He also CHOSE to run the streets when he was growing up. However, he remembers exactly one time his father EVER hit him, and his mother never did. Neither does he hit my stepdaughter, nor does he believe that hitting children is ever appropriate.

Culture MAY be a factor, but please do not equate "non-white" with corporal punishment.

Of course not all non- white parents beat their kids. However, since the use of specific culture is being used as a justification for beating/ whipping children, I think it's appropriate to speak to how using that justification does not neccessarily lead to the outcomes these parents are intending.

[Mama Mia]

So you're just going to allow a child to hit you? Of course there might be other issues going on but that is no excuse for their behavior. Teens know right from wrong. If therapy doesn't work or taking things away doesn't work what's the next step? Sit there and let it happen?

I agree with you that some kids are much harder to deal with than others. It can be due to their innate personality, or things they have experienced at home or outside of home -- or even just a personality mismatch with their parent. I don't think an occasional light smack is going to traumatize most kids, and with one of my kids I think it actually would have been less agonizing and more effective than time-outs, counseling, restriction of things he liked, discussions, or any of the many other parenting techniques we tried. He is a very physical person, and responds physically.

-- the problem though, in my opinion, is that the only way to go if you are getting physical with a teen who is stubborn, impulsive, out-of-control, explosive ( and any older kid who hits their parent is going to fall into those categories - if not mentally ill) - is too escalate the discipline to the point one or both of you end up in the hospital or in jail. So not only is it teaching the kid that escalating violence is the way to solve problems-- it likely isn't even likely to curb the behavior in the first place.

I'm sure you could come up with a real life example of some kid who was getting out-of-control and doing bad things and getting violent until their parent beat them and they changed their life around. But you could also find the same stories about kids who changed their lives around because they went to counseling, or found religion, or got a job or found a hobby or a hundred other things. And a hundred kids who didn't get it together despite their parents beating them. So if it's not, realistically, any more effective than non-violent methods, and more likely to lead to further violent behavior or an escalation of conflict-- what is the benefit?

I'm genuinely curious.

[Rebelwife]

I was disappointed in Leonard Pitts' column about this topic.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2014/09/21/2 ... nd-is.html

Apparently he doesn't consider himself an abuse victim, even though his mom whipped him with Hotwheels tracks :shock:

I was very disappointed too. I usually really like what he has to say, but this article made me shake my head in despair. If someone who is generally so reasonable and rational has this opinion, we have a long way to go. :(

[2xx1xy1JD]

So you're just going to allow a child to hit you? Of course there might be other issues going on but that is no excuse for their behavior. Teens know right from wrong. If therapy doesn't work or taking things away doesn't work what's the next step? Sit there and let it happen?

You are right that what works for my kids won't work for everyone.

I've also done child custody and child protection work for the past 18 years, and my sister works with people with special needs including mental health. I'm basing my answer on that experiences.

1. I've never seen a parent striking a teen for discipline help in a situation where a teen is out of control. I've seen several cases where it made things much worse.

2. There are some kids who have explosive rages and extreme difficulty in controlling themselves. Sometimes, this is because something is wrong with them - mental illness, fetal alcohol syndrome, etc. The main way to treat the behavior is to treat the cause. Sometimes, this means that a parent consents to treatment that a child may not want. In the most severe cases, in-patient treatment may be necessary.

3. Getting physical with someone your own size is dangerous, for both of you. CPI techniques can be used to do safe behavior management: http://www.crisisprevention.com/.

4. I've seen some kids thrive after a stay in a good foster or group home, where rules are enforced and there is no opportunity to pressure a parent into giving in. This is risky, but a GOOD group home that provide structure and get a teen to learn how to self-regulate. One teen told us, "I learned how to be a normal kid, and now I don't want to be a weird outcast anymore".

5. Kids can be taught to plan and think ahead about choices. They can learn to research things (how does tobacco cause cancer? what does alcohol do to you? what is safe sex?). They can learn to use tools like budgets and schedules. They can learn to make informed choices.

6. They can find out that everything is a privilege, not a right.

[Toothfairy]

I don't know why some people are against physical punishment. Spanking isn't abuse. It's not going to scar your child for life.A spanking is painful, but it should never leave lasting marks like bruises or welts. A parent that slaps a child in the face or hits her until she is bruised is not spanking. That parent is being abusive and that is not what I am defending here. There is no excuse for parents abusing children, and those who defend spanking are not defending child abuse. However, we should not stop spanking because some parents cross the line into abuse. That is throwing the proverbial baby out with the bath water. Does spanking work for every child? No. I refuse to raise disrespectful kids. The way parents parent their kids now, is the way somebody else has to deal with them in the future. I've seen too many kids not respect authority figures and feel like they can do whatever they want when they want. And the parent is only to blame if their kid is out of control. I not going to allow a child to dictate my home or me. Of course you should use physical punishment for every little or single thing. How will a child learn from their mistakes. However there is a line that shouldn't be cross and being disrespectful to the people that brought you into this world is crossing the line.

[Toothfairy]

You are right that what works for my kids won't work for everyone.

I've also done child custody and child protection work for the past 18 years, and my sister works with people with special needs including mental health. I'm basing my answer on that experiences.

1. I've never seen a parent striking a teen for discipline help in a situation where a teen is out of control. I've seen several cases where it made things much worse.

2. There are some kids who have explosive rages and extreme difficulty in controlling themselves. Sometimes, this is because something is wrong with them - mental illness, fetal alcohol syndrome, etc. The main way to treat the behavior is to treat the cause. Sometimes, this means that a parent consents to treatment that a child may not want. In the most severe cases, in-patient treatment may be necessary.

3. Getting physical with someone your own size is dangerous, for both of you. CPI techniques can be used to do safe behavior management: http://www.crisisprevention.com/.

4. I've seen some kids thrive after a stay in a good foster or group home, where rules are enforced and there is no opportunity to pressure a parent into giving in. This is risky, but a GOOD group home that provide structure and get a teen to learn how to self-regulate. One teen told us, "I learned how to be a normal kid, and now I don't want to be a weird outcast anymore".

5. Kids can be taught to plan and think ahead about choices. They can learn to research things (how does tobacco cause cancer? what does alcohol do to you? what is safe sex?). They can learn to use tools like budgets and schedules. They can learn to make informed choices.

6. They can find out that everything is a privilege, not a right.

of course spanking won't solve and help everything. If the behavior continues to get worse then other measures needs to be taken. However I'm not going to excuse someone's actions.

[Trynn]

I didn't ask to be brought into this world. I keep asking to be taken out of it, actually, and have since I was a child. I don't think that's a good enough reason for my parents to hit me.

[Pammy]

I don't know why some people are against physical punishment. Spanking isn't abuse. It's not going to scar your child for life.A spanking is painful, but it should never leave lasting marks like bruises or welts. A parent that slaps a child in the face or hits her until she is bruised is not spanking. That parent is being abusive and that is not what I am defending here. There is no excuse for parents abusing children, and those who defend spanking are not defending child abuse. However, we should not stop spanking because some parents cross the line into abuse. That is throwing the proverbial baby out with the bath water. Does spanking work for every child? No. I refuse to raise disrespectful kids. The way parents parent their kids now, is the way somebody else has to deal with them in the future. I've seen too many kids not respect authority figures and feel like they can do whatever they want when they want. And the parent is only to blame if their kid is out of control. I not going to allow a child to dictate my home or me. Of course you should use physical punishment for every little or single thing. How will a child learn from their mistakes. However there is a line that shouldn't be cross and being disrespectful to the people that brought you into this world is crossing the line.

Are you at all curious about why some people are against all physical punishment? Or are you content to carry on not knowing?