Adrian Peterson and the Pearl method of abuse

[Toothfairy]

Are you at all curious about why some people are against all physical punishment? Or are you content to carry on not knowing?

physical punishment isn't abuse

[Micah]

According to the laws of most Western countries physical punishment IS abuse...if done to an adult. Why should a child, smaller, weaker, less developed and dependant on parents or guardians for everything, be any different?

If you wouldn't whack your spouse, co worker, friend or random stranger for breaking the rules, what gives you the right to do it to your child?

And not spanking doesn't mean no discipline. It just means you have to be more creative and more invested in forming a proper relationship with your child. You know, the stuff that parents SHOULD do anyway. You seem very concerned about "out of control' children and children hitting their own parents, Toothfairy. Dunno what your parenting is like, but that's not something that even enters my mind with my son. He did go through a stage where he was out of control, throwing tantrums at the drop of a hat, hitting, throwing things. Instead of whooping him, I got him tested and it turned out he was deaf. It was frustration from not being able to hear anything.

Maybe you're doin' it rong.....just sayin'.

[GiGi_41]

*****sarcasm******

Normally when I'm disciplining my child, I use the sing harassment technique. Basically, it involves me singing Let It Go at the top of my lungs, quite off key, while she runs and does what was asked just so I will stop singing. She made the silly mistake of informing me that my sing freaks her out and making her owies bleed. So it must be avoided at all costs.

I don't think at 4 she has grasped the what she is feeling is embarrassment. But hey work with what you got!

[Pammy]

physical punishment isn't abuse

"Abuse" is a legal term. As such the acts that the term discribes are clear and specific. They also vary by jurisdiction.

Therefore, I can certainly agree with you in the statement that there are some places in the world where spanking is not abuse. I assume you live in one. So do I.

So much for the bunny trail. Do you usually respond to simple questions by making random statements instead of answering them? Honestly, if you don't want to answer the question, you can ignore it -- but I don't get the point of quoting my question simply to provide a random comment.

So, you "don't know why some people are against physical punishment." Are you happy not knowing why? Or would you like to learn and understand why? You seem passionate about the issue. Would you like to be better informed or not?

[Mama Mia]

I don't know why some people are against physical punishment. Spanking isn't abuse. It's not going to scar your child for life.A spanking is painful, but it should never leave lasting marks like bruises or welts. A parent that slaps a child in the face or hits her until she is bruised is not spanking. That parent is being abusive and that is not what I am defending here. There is no excuse for parents abusing children, and those who defend spanking are not defending child abuse. However, we should not stop spanking because some parents cross the line into abuse. That is throwing the proverbial baby out with the bath water. Does spanking work for every child? No. I refuse to raise disrespectful kids. The way parents parent their kids now, is the way somebody else has to deal with them in the future. I've seen too many kids not respect authority figures and feel like they can do whatever they want when they want. And the parent is only to blame if their kid is out of control. I not going to allow a child to dictate my home or me. Of course you should use physical punishment for every little or single thing. How will a child learn from their mistakes. However there is a line that shouldn't be cross and being disrespectful to the people that brought you into this world is crossing the line.

I think I'm going to be one of the few people here who will admit to having been a completely out-of-control teen. Although I never hit my parents. Or had sex for money. But any of the rest of it-- most definitely. And my parents weren't hitters. Similarly, a couple of my kids were very out of control teens ( although also, never got hit by them, and neither had sex for money - as far as I know ) . I also was never kicked out, and my kids were never kicked out. So, from your view -- my family would be an example of the disrespectful, acting like their grown, out-of-control, the world will kick their ass teens that you wouldn't tolerate. That's fine. I'm sure lots of people share your views ( the endless conflict with my husband would be proof of that!). And my parents I'm sure were quite miserable and distraught about what an obnoxious, ungrateful street-running kid I was-- for a few years. And I was certainly very angry, frustrated, fearful about the spoiled, lazy, dangerous, disrespectful, criminal behavior a couple of the kids were engaged in -- for a few years.

BUT -- the big, huge difference between me, and my kids and most of the rest of the wild, out-of control kids that I knew, or they knew, is that the running wild phase was a few years - instead of decades. And didn't end up with significant juvenile hall/jail time, death, or alcoholism/drug addiction and/ or prostitution. And most ( if not all) of the kids who ended up with the really serious issues that lasted well into adulthood - had parents who believed in physical punishment and / or kicked their teens out when they became out-of-control.

I'm not saying it's a 100% correlation. Some kids who were hit by their parents! or kicked out of the house, grew out of the criminal behavior fairly quickly. But it was definitely much more common for the parents who had that hard line attitude to have the teens who ended up in prison, or shot, or still living like an idiotic teen in their late twenties+. Also, I grew up in the seventies -- when physical punishment was much more widely acceptable. I ran with the same sorts of kids as my wild kids, who were teens just a few years ago -- when extreme corporeal punishment wasn't acceptable. And just in my small, completely not scientific sample -- I have to say that their friends seem to be doing better, at a higher rate, at a younger age, than my friends did. And I believe if you look at crime rates - this is born out. Despite the appearance of crime increases- I am pretty sure most crime has actually gone down over the past few decades ( everything looks worse because of the Internet and 24 hour news) . Obviously you can't contribute this entirely to changes in child rearing -- but I would bet that it has some impact.

[Toothfairy]

According to the laws of most Western countries physical punishment IS abuse...if done to an adult. Why should a child, smaller, weaker, less developed and dependant on parents or guardians for everything, be any different?

If you wouldn't whack your spouse, co worker, friend or random stranger for breaking the rules, what gives you the right to do it to your child?

And not spanking doesn't mean no discipline. It just means you have to be more creative and more invested in forming a proper relationship with your child. You know, the stuff that parents SHOULD do anyway. You seem very concerned about "out of control' children and children hitting their own parents, Toothfairy. Dunno what your parenting is like, but that's not something that even enters my mind with my son. He did go through a stage where he was out of control, throwing tantrums at the drop of a hat, hitting, throwing things. Instead of whooping him, I got him tested and it turned out he was deaf. It was frustration from not being able to hear anything.

Maybe you're doin' it rong.....just sayin'.

My kids aren't put of control but I've seen out of control kids. I'm not against spanking. Some of my kids were spanked, it didn't harm them at all. They do good in school , get good grades and are respectful. They're not scared of me. They share what's going on in their lives with me without fear. I never said not spanking means no discipline. I know parents who never laid a hand on their child and their child turned out all right. I also know parents who spank their kids and they also turned out all right. Spanking isn't abuse. And you can't compare a grown adult to a child. Legally parents are responsible for their children. And the law cannot tell you how to parent because there are many different ways of parenting. It's not against the law to spank or kids. Just like it's not against the law to ground your kid for a year.

[Toothfairy]

"Abuse" is a legal term. As such the acts that the term discribes are clear and specific. They also vary by jurisdiction.

Therefore, I can certainly agree with you in the statement that there are some places in the world where spanking is not abuse. I assume you live in one. So do I.

So much for the bunny trail. Do you usually respond to simple questions by making random statements instead of answering them? Honestly, if you don't want to answer the question, you can ignore it -- but I don't get the point of quoting my question simply to provide a random comment.

So, you "don't know why some people are against physical punishment." Are you happy not knowing why? Or would you like to learn and understand why? You seem passionate about the issue. Would you like to be better informed or not?

I don't understand why you're being so rude. If you're against spanking then don't spank. But I'm all for spanking.Dont pound of me because I support something you don't. Spanking isn't abuse. Just like letting your child miss a meal because they don't like what you cook isn't abuse. It's only abuse if the parent over does it, meaning punching, kicking, broken bones, black and blue, black eye, etc. That's taking it too far. I've seen and worked with abused kids and spanking doesn't come close to abuse.

[Pammy]

I don't understand why you're being so rude. If you're against spanking then don't spank. But I'm all for spanking.Dont pound of me because I support something you don't. Spanking isn't abuse. Just like letting your child miss a meal because they don't like what you cook isn't abuse. It's only abuse if the parent over does it, meaning punching, kicking, broken bones, black and blue, black eye, etc. That's taking it too far. I've seen and worked with abused kids and spanking doesn't come close to abuse.

I'm not pounding on you. I am asking you whether or not you are interested in learning about the parts if this issue that you don't understand.

If you said, "Yes, I'm curious." -- is be happy to explain things to you. If you said, "No, it's fine with me that I don't understand, and I want to keep it that way." -- I'd be equally happy to call you willfully ignorant and adverse to learning simple ideas to enrich your understanding of this important topic.

However, since this is your second response in which you quote me, but (for some reason) decline to answer the only question I asked you... I'm just going to go with it. You are willfully ignorant. In spite if having every opportunity to learn "why people are against physical discipline", you simply prefer to continue to "not understand" it. People loose a lot of credibility in my eyes when they choose ignorance on purpose.

As to your random comments, I assume they are directed at me (because you quoted me) so I suppose you would like me to respond.

1. Yes, I am well aware that I possess the freedom to not spank my children. Your words don't give me permission to own that decision.

2. If I want to 'pound in you' or 'be rude' I also fully possess that freedom. Your words don't take that away from me.

3. I agree that you may indeed live in a part of the world where hitting children is not legally within the definition of abuse.

4. I don't agree that anyone gets to have a personal opinion if what abuse is. Abuse is whatever the law says, wherever it is that you live. The only way to change the definition of abuse (as it applies to each person) is to petition your government or move to somewhere else.

There are places where spanking is abuse, and there are places where it isn't. However, no matter where you are, spanking, swatting, switching and slapping are always (a) unkind, and (b) unnecessary.

[2xx1xy1JD]

My kids aren't put of control but I've seen out of control kids. I'm not against spanking. Some of my kids were spanked, it didn't harm them at all. They do good in school , get good grades and are respectful. They're not scared of me. They share what's going on in their lives with me without fear. I never said not spanking means no discipline. I know parents who never laid a hand on their child and their child turned out all right. I also know parents who spank their kids and they also turned out all right. Spanking isn't abuse. And you can't compare a grown adult to a child. Legally parents are responsible for their children. And the law cannot tell you how to parent because there are many different ways of parenting. It's not against the law to spank or kids. Just like it's not against the law to ground your kid for a year.

1. Not everybody defines "spanking" the same way. For some people, it's an occasional swat to the butt with an open hand. For others, it could mean a wooden spoon or paddle or switch, and leave marks.

2. Whether or not something is against the law depends entirely on where in the world you live. Each state has its own laws, and other countries all have their own laws. In some places, yes, it is illegal to spank children. In other places, like Canada, some spanking is allowed but it is very narrowly defined so that you can't use objects, strike the head, do it too hard, do it in anger, or do it to a child under 2 or over 12.

3. There isn't any evidence that spanking actually helps with anything but short-term compliance. There is nothing to show that it helps produce kids who are more in control, have more self-discipline, have better morals, etc.

[It'sFunToRun]

I'm not pounding on you. I am asking you whether or not you are interested in learning about the parts if this issue that you don't understand.

If you said, "Yes, I'm curious." -- is be happy to explain things to you. If you said, "No, it's fine with me that I don't understand, and I want to keep it that way." -- I'd be equally happy to call you willfully ignorant and adverse to learning simple ideas to enrich your understanding of this important topic.

However, since this is your second response in which you quote me, but (for some reason) decline to answer the only question I asked you... I'm just going to go with it. You are willfully ignorant. In spite if having every opportunity to learn "why people are against physical discipline", you simply prefer to continue to "not understand" it. People loose a lot of credibility in my eyes when they choose ignorance on purpose.

As to your random comments, I assume they are directed at me (because you quoted me) so I suppose you would like me to respond.

1. Yes, I am well aware that I possess the freedom to not spank my children. Your words don't give me permission to own that decision.

2. If I want to 'pound in you' or 'be rude' I also fully possess that freedom. Your words don't take that away from me.

3. I agree that you may indeed live in a part of the world where hitting children is not legally within the definition of abuse.

4. I don't agree that anyone gets to have a personal opinion if what abuse is. Abuse is whatever the law says, wherever it is that you live. The only way to change the definition of abuse (as it applies to each person) is to petition your government or move to somewhere else.

There are places where spanking is abuse, and there are places where it isn't. However, no matter where you are, spanking, swatting, switching and slapping are always (a) unkind, and (b) unnecessary.

Just because someone disagrees with us doesn't mean they are ignorant. The world (and Free Jinger) is big enough to hold all kinds of opinions. In fact, it looks like Toothfairy has read all of our responses to her and she still disagrees with us, so it's not that she has never encountered an opposing argument. Sometimes people can't be convinced, and that's okay.

I don't like spanking (except in foreplay ;) ) and I'm not thrilled that someone advocates using it on children. But if everyone thought like me, then there would be no doctors because everyone would pass out at the sight of blood, and there would never be enough drumsticks.