My goodness what is the obsession with spanking

[BriarRose1122]

I read the 11smiths blog and saw that David Smith is engaged to Rebecca Corbett so I looked at the pictures on their blog, and then I decided to go over and read the Corbetts blog to see if they say anything about the engagement. I didn't find anything but that's not really the point of this post anyway.

The point is, I only occasionally read the Corbetts blog but I do have it saved on my favorites list so anyway once I was already on their blog I decided to look around it more and read some of it.

I clicked on the link where it says "Hannah's book" (at the top of their page) and then I looked at the contents of Hannah's book. It's not really a book, it's like her own blog on their website, it just has a picture of an old fashioned looking book and each of her blog entries are like her "chapters" in her book.

Ok so I didn't read them in order, I just randomly clicked on several and read them...I maybe read five of them?

But every single one I clicked on was about getting spankings! Literally, every one I read.

I don't know if they're ALL about spanking but it seemed off that I randomly click on about five and every one I clicked on was a memory of getting spanked.

And they all read like "happy fun memories" not "scary"...Ive never read a fetish website but this is what I would think it would be like, I mean some of them were about the siblings ratting on each other and then delighting that the sibling was going to be spanked..one was about a 13 year old boy deciding he was too old to be spanked and then his mom spanking him...one spanking story was about her brother having to stand there and watch all his sibling being spanked. :pink-shock:

[ILoveJellybeans]

I think it is the only way fundies can express a fetish for BDSM. Some of the stuff they write about hitting their kids sounds so much like it would belong in 50 Shades of Grey. It is just creepy.

Also, sometimes when kids are spanked a lot as a child, they begin to sexualise the process. Ive heard that because the butt is so close to the genitals, it can cause sexual confusion and give them some kind of fetish for it.

[countressrascal]

Because it is Bibical

[wayward]

Yeah, there’s something creepy about the number of times it comes up. Not that fundie families aren’t like that IRL.

[trailmix2014]

Many fundies follow Pearl, who has a disgusting spanking fetish of his own, IMO. So if they are following his teachings, then that means a lot of spankings. It can mean that it comes up often.

Thankfully, even in my pro-spanking days, I never knew who Pearl was. Dobson was bad enough. Thankfully I am now the opposite and strongly oppose spanking for any reason.

[docmom]

They seem to be more than just "spankings". They beat their kids with a paddle! I can understand, but not condone, a quick slap meted out in fear, anger or frustration but I cannot understand how anyone can calmly and methodically hit a child with a wooden paddle. What's really hard is that these kids obviously see this as a totally normal part of their childhood.

[nomoxian]

I think it is the only way fundies can express a fetish for BDSM. Some of the stuff they write about hitting their kids sounds so much like it would belong in 50 Shades of Grey. It is just creepy.

Also, sometimes when kids are spanked a lot as a child, they begin to sexualise the process. Ive heard that because the butt is so close to the genitals, it can cause sexual confusion and give them some kind of fetish for it.

I've heard that before and (potential TMI alert) it might be why I'm into that fetish... I think of it as a way of reclaiming bodies, turning something negative into something positive, and accepting or giving it with full consent.

[RosyDaisy]

Spanking IS NOT biblical. Here's 2 verses I can think of ff the top of my head:

Ephesians 6:4 "Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord."

Colossians 3:21 "Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged "

Christ never advocated violence. He spoke against it. Furthermore, discipline, punishment, and correction do not mean hitting. Besides spanking or hitting your kids show lack of patience and lack of self-control.

[thoughtful]

I would add that fundamentalism involves black-and-white thinking.

So, there is no subtlety, no (you should pardon the expression!) shades of gray. Anything a child does that is not what the parent wanted cannot be chalked up to fear, allergies, learning disabilities, tiredness, normal developmental stages, or anything else that most of us would think of.

They see only sin, disobedience and opposition, and feel they have to beat it down.

To me, even that doesn't answer why they must use violence, instead of other means, but it does seem to go along with the "you must spank or your child will go to hell -- nothing in between" mindset.

I can never understand why some people sentimentalize the spanking of their own childhoods - camaraderie over mutual survival, maybe?

Once, when I was in a thrift store, a man who appeared to be in his 60s or 70s looked around for someone about his age, and spotted me. He pointed to a paddle on the shelf, and made some comment about how there was one of those hanging on the wall in his childhood home, and of course didn't my parents have one too, and isn't that why we turned out OK, and wasn't that a fun memory? He had a big grin on his face.

I make every attempt to make pleasant contact with people, and connect over whatever we've got in common, and thrift and antique stores are great places for that -- the "we had one of those!" moments are generally fun.

But I sure as hell had to disappoint this man. As kindly as I could, I answered that there was nothing like that in my house, and moved on to the next aisle.

[BriarRose1122]

I know I'm the one who started this thread but now I have a comment lol. You reminded me that in church the pastor was taking about the twenty third psalm and it says "thy rod and thy staff comfort me" and also there are other parts of the bible where it talks about being a shepherd and the pastor mentioned that the shepherd does not HIT the sheep with the rod, he uses the rod to guide them back into place. The pastor was saying he thought the parts about the rod were being like sheep and guiding your children's path not hitting them.

[Coco]

I would add that fundamentalism involves black-and-white thinking.

So, there is no subtlety, no (you should pardon the expression!) shades of gray. Anything a child does that is not what the parent wanted cannot be chalked up to fear, allergies, learning disabilities, tiredness, normal developmental stages, or anything else that most of us would think of.

They see only sin, disobedience and opposition, and feel they have to beat it down.

To me, even that doesn't answer why they must use violence, instead of other means, but it does seem to go along with the "you must spank or your child will go to hell -- nothing in between" mindset.

I can never understand why some people sentimentalize the spanking of their own childhoods - camaraderie over mutual survival, maybe?

Once, when I was in a thrift store, a man who appeared to be in his 60s or 70s looked around for someone about his age, and spotted me. He pointed to a paddle on the shelf, and made some comment about how there was one of those hanging on the wall in his childhood home, and of course didn't my parents have one too, and isn't that why we turned out OK, and wasn't that a fun memory? He had a big grin on his face.

I make every attempt to make pleasant contact with people, and connect over whatever we've got in common, and thrift and antique stores are great places for that -- the "we had one of those!" moments are generally fun.

But I sure as hell had to disappoint this man. As kindly as I could, I answered that there was nothing like that in my house, and moved on to the next aisle.

That's so true. The Pearl books are an example of that black and white, parents always must be obeyed thinking. They think if they budge a tiny bit kids will fall into sin later as teens because the parents are the example of God to the kids. :roll: recipe for disaster. Spankings just create an atmosphere of fear, guilt, suppressed anger, and shame. No wonder fundies love punishing their kids that way. My sibs and i were spanked almost every day with mini blind turners, up into our teens. I got to where i didn't feel like i was a Christian that day until i'd had some bad thought or reaction beat out of my spirit and cried about. :shrug: Fundies want their kids to feel like horrible sinners so they'll be good followers.

Some children just don't respond to spanking even when the issue really is rebellion, my dd is one of those. I think she might be a little bit ADHD but for whatever reason, a spanking is not a deterrent. She just doesn't remember it the next time she wants to be naughty. I had to go against all my upbringing and my parent's advice and start using gentle parenting techniques (like what a teacher would use in a classroom) and IT WORKS! The other day i found copies of No Greater Joy volumes 1 & 2 in a box of moving junk and had an instant party throwing them out. :lol:

My respect for Natalie Klejwa definitely increased when she posted about her ADHD/ODD daughter and how it completely changed her ideas of what makes a good mom. She's still got some strange ideas but her blog has become so much more honest. At least she admitted that bad behavior is sometimes more than just rebellion, and it's not for lack of parents doing everything they can.

visionarywomanhood.com/from-home-school-to-private-school/

[16strong]

I have always taken the "spare the rod, spoil the child" line to be figurative. Basically, if you don't discipline your child, they will be unruly. I think some fundies just want to beat their kids, so use that particular verse to justify what they are doing (unfortunately).

[thoughtful]

I know I'm the one who started this thread but now I have a comment lol. You reminded me that in church the pastor was taking about the twenty third psalm and it says "thy rod and thy staff comfort me" and also there are other parts of the bible where it talks about being a shepherd and the pastor mentioned that the shepherd does not HIT the sheep with the rod, he uses the rod to guide them back into place. The pastor was saying he thought the parts about the rod were being like sheep and guiding your children's path not hitting them.

Sadly, the child-beating fundies have all kinds of answer for this, often posting the verses that are more specific about using the rod to beat:

Proverbs 13:24 - He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Proverbs 22:15 - Foolishness [is] bound in the heart of a child; [but] the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Proverbs 19:18 - Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.

Proverbs 29:15 - The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left [to himself] bringeth his mother to shame.

Proverbs 23:13 - Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

Hebrews 12:11 - Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Proverbs 23:14 - Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

:(

[thoughtful]

I have always taken the "spare the rod, spoil the child" line to be figurative. Basically, if you don't discipline your child, they will be unruly. I think some fundies just want to beat their kids, so use that particular verse to justify what they are doing (unfortunately).

There is a verse about not sparing the rod, but the "spoil the child" ending is not from the Bible.

It is from a rather risque part of Samuel Butler's poem Hudibras.

"The child," in this case, is Love, Eros, Cupid:

If matrimony and hanging go

By dest'ny, why not whipping too?

What med'cine else can cure the fits

Of lovers when they lose their wits?

Love is a boy by poets stil'd

Then spare the rod and spoil the child.

And what follows sure does sound more like spanking kink than child-rearing advice, although, on the surface, some of it seems to be about adults being whipped to discourage their passion:

A Persian emp'ror whipp'd his grannam

The sea, his mother VENUS came on;

And hence some rev'rend men approve

Of rosemary in making love.

As skilful coopers hoop their tubs

With Lydian and with Phrygian dubs,

Why may not whipping have as good

A grace, perform'd in time and mood,

With comely movement, and by art,

Raise passion in a lady's heart?

It is an easier way to make

Love by, than that which many take.

Who would not rather suffer whipping,

Than swallow toasts of bits of ribbon?

Make wicked verses, treats, and faces,

And spell names over with beer-glasses

Be under vows to hang and die

Love's sacrifice, and all a lie?

With china-oranges and tarts

And whinning plays, lay baits for hearts?

Bribe chamber-maids with love and money,

To break no roguish jests upon ye?

For lilies limn'd on cheeks, and roses,

With painted perfumes, hazard noses?

Or, vent'ring to be brisk and wanton,

Do penance in a paper lanthorn?

All this you may compound for now,

By suffering what I offer you;

Which is no more than has been done

By Knights for Ladies long agone.

Did not the great LA MANCHA do so

For the INFANTA DEL TOBOSO?

Did not th' illustrious Bassa make

Himself a slave for Misse's sake?

And with bull's pizzle, for her love,

Was taw 'd as gentle as a glove?

Was not young FLORIO sent (to cool

His flame for BIANCAFIORE) to school,

Where pedant made his pathic bum

For her sake suffer martyrdom?

Did not a certain lady whip

Of late her husband's own Lordship?

And though a grandee of the House,

Claw'd him with fundamental blows

Ty'd him stark naked to a bed-post,

And firk'd his hide, as if sh' had rid post

And after, in the sessions-court,

Where whipping's judg'd, had honour for't?

http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/4937/pg4937.html

[neuroticcat]

Sadly, the child-beating fundies have all kinds of answer for this, often posting the verses that are more specific about using the rod to beat:

Proverbs 13:24 - He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Proverbs 22:15 - Foolishness [is] bound in the heart of a child; [but] the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Proverbs 19:18 - Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.

Proverbs 29:15 - The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left [to himself] bringeth his mother to shame.

Proverbs 23:13 - Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

Hebrews 12:11 - Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Proverbs 23:14 - Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

:(

What's wild is that all the Proverbs verses use different words for child and NONE of them refer to very small children. So the real debate should be over whether we should hit our adolescent young men or not. But the Bible NEVER mandates hitting very small children, which is what contemporary Christian parenting books advocate.

Also, it feels like it once again brings in literalism 101. Let's pick and choose some OT practices we will cling to as sacred and others we will throw away! I know! Beating children! That's the hill we are going to die on. :angry-banghead:

[BriarRose1122]

I had a friend in college who was a boy and he was one of several kids (he was the oldest one) and for some reason he was the only one who got hit, the other kids were grounded, no tv, etc but he always got beat, his dad spanked him with a belt and at 17 he had had enough and moved out and lived with a friend's family . :( I was friends with him when we were 22-25 and he still had a lot of issues because of it :(

[thoughtful]

What's wild is that all the Proverbs verses use different words for child and NONE of them refer to very small children. So the real debate should be over whether we should hit our adolescent young men or not. But the Bible NEVER mandates hitting very small children, which is what contemporary Christian parenting books advocate.

I did forget to mention that. Yep, their insistence on KJV, no research into the original languages needed, is part of the problem.

Not that I think teens and young adults should be hit, either, but using these verses to justify hitting babies and toddlers is dishonest and foul.

[Hane]

I can never understand why some people sentimentalize the spanking of their own childhoods - camaraderie over mutual survival, maybe?

Once, when I was in a thrift store, a man who appeared to be in his 60s or 70s looked around for someone about his age, and spotted me. He pointed to a paddle on the shelf, and made some comment about how there was one of those hanging on the wall in his childhood home, and of course didn't my parents have one too, and isn't that why we turned out OK, and wasn't that a fun memory? He had a big grin on his face.

I make every attempt to make pleasant contact with people, and connect over whatever we've got in common, and thrift and antique stores are great places for that -- the "we had one of those!" moments are generally fun.

But I sure as hell had to disappoint this man. As kindly as I could, I answered that there was nothing like that in my house, and moved on to the next aisle.

Yes to the bolded. One day at my office, a group of older IT guys were working in a cube near mine and loudly conversing about the extreme-sounding corporal punishment they underwent as kids and how successful it was at "straightening them out." It was so triggery to me that I went over to them and told them it was upsetting me, so they should STFU.

I've been invited to join a local Facebook group about growing up in the '50s and '60s. I won't join, because I dread running into this kind of pro-CP garbage. (I once was at a Red Hats convention where there was a one-woman nostalgia-comedy show about being a kid in the '50s. I walked out when she started glorifying the merits of CP [and missed being introduced as a Queen Mother]. She practically got a standing ovation.)

[roddma]

Devils advocate but a swat or two on the behind is not abuse. There are two schools of extreme though: One says if you never spank your child, they will be the future serial killers Another says never never spank your child or they will be psychologically damaged. I dont buy either. These extremes make it hard to discipline children. The anti spank crowd overreacts when they see a child get a swat or two on the behind or a parent raises their voice. Sometimes, words dont work just as vice versa.. I mean I loathe what the Pearls teach It is wrong and cruel. However, Parents can mess up their kids without spanking. The key is balance.

[thoughtful]

Devils advocate but a swat or two on the behind is not abuse. There are two schools of extreme though: One says if you never spank your child, they will be the future serial killers Another says never never spank your child or they will be psychologically damaged. I dont buy either. These extremes make it hard to discipline children. The anti spank crowd overreacts when they see a child get a swat or two on the behind or a parent raises their voice. Sometimes, words dont work just as vice versa.. I mean I loathe what the Pearls teach It is wrong and cruel. However, Parents can mess up their kids without spanking. The key is balance.

I am totally anti-spanking, but don't think my position is extreme.

I try not to use scare tactics, just logic. There is no situation that cannot be handled without spanking, and it is not an option that is proven necessary or even more effective than the many other choices adults have for teaching children and administering consequences. There is always another choice -- often dozens of other choices.

Saying that parents can mess up their kids without spanking is a straw man -- there are lots of ways parents can mess up their kids besides spanking, but that doesn't change the fact that hitting is not needed.

[roddma]

I knew I was going to get that response. My take is

1) Only use it as a last resort for something really bad behavior that doesnt resolve or dangerous like running into a street

2) No instruments or objects

3) No babies

I got a couple of spankings and so did brother and DH and none of us are messed up. I have a distant cousin who brags about not ever spanking his boys. However, it got replaced with yelling and verbal abuse.

If you dont show who is control, you get kids running amok in public places, harming small animals,and kicking back of air plane seats. Maybe it was on here or on FB but I recall a video in which a mother was letting a small child hurt a puppy. thankfully the pup survived. The mother did nothing to make the child stop.

Extreme views are the problem as I keep saying.

[RosyDaisy]

It's strange that fundies never pay attention to the New Testament and what Jesus said about violence. Actually, it's not strange. Corporal punishment is just a means to gain power and control.

Speaking of Proverbs. Here's one for fundies:

'Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it."--Proverbs 22:6

So if your kid turns out bad it's your on damn fault, fundies!

[RosyDaisy]

If you really want to punish your kids for misbehaving, take away their cell phones, tablets, laptops, internet access, mp3 players, etc. My sister said that's much more effective than spanking.

[thoughtful]

I knew I was going to get that response. My take is

1) Only use it as a last resort for something really bad behavior that doesnt resolve or dangerous like running into a street

2) No instruments or objects

3) No babies

I got a couple of spankings and so did brother and DH and none of us are messed up. I have a distant cousin who brags about not ever spanking his boys. However, it got replaced with yelling and verbal abuse.

If you dont show who is control, you get kids running amok in public places, harming small animals,and kicking back of air plane seats. Maybe it was on here or on FB but I recall a video in which a mother was letting a small child hurt a puppy. thankfully the pup survived. The mother did nothing to make the child stop.

Extreme views are the problem as I keep saying.

Sorry about all the colors -- bolding doesn't seem to do much, and there are a few different things I want to address.

Re: the red -- you knew one of us no-spanking-ever types would chime in, but did you actually read what I said? I didn't freak out and shriek at you, I do not use the "even a tiny swat will damage you forever" argument.

Here is my response to your numbered list:

1) There is no situation in which spanking is absolutely necessary. I can't imagine that a repeated behavior that doesn't resolve will be stopped by spanking any more than it will by other punishments.

As for sudden dangerous actions, I would hope that management and past practice (like lots of reinforcement for turning back to a parent when the child's name is called) would prevent many truly dangerous situations.

However, if those things have failed, and a child is running into the street or reaching for a stove, grabbing hold of them to save them is the only physical action necessary. Once the immediate crisis is over, whether there's a consequence, and what it is, can depend on the child's age.

2) and 3) don't do anything to make it OK, to me. It's still causing totally unnecessary pain to a beloved child, that is not more likely to solve the problem than other consequences.

The part I highlighted in green is your answering an argument that hasn't been made -- I do not do the "only one spanking will ruin you!" argument. The only credence I give to that is that we never know how sensitive a person is. For example, I was the kind of kid who would have nightmares and be terrified to go to bed for months after seeing one scary image, so my brother was asked to watch The Outer Limits in my parents' room with the door closed.

That did make me a better-safe-than-sorry type. While I don't use the "even a swat or two will destroy a child" argument, because I don't think it's true, I do accept that there may be children for whom even a few swats does more to make them leery of their parents, or willing to be sneaky, than it does to truly reverse their unwanted behavior.

But really, you were answering something I did not say in my previous post.

I really do agree with you that people using wild hyperbole to attack one another and predict chaos and totally out-of-control children is extreme. But look at what you said, in blue, above. Isn't that taking the extreme pro-spanking view that you say you don't like? The straw man arguments of "it's either yelling and screaming or spanking" and "it's either spanking or wild kids," are both invalid, and both fear-mongering.

I really believe that the "no spanking ever" stance is not an extreme view. It can be defended logically.

I'll say this again -- there are thousands of possible parental actions between kids running wild and resorting to spanking. Showing who is in control (better yet, teaching self-control, when a child is developmentally ready) does not require hitting. So why do it?

If someone said "just murmur 'abracadabra' over your child every day, and they will grow up perfect," would you do it? Heck, that doesn't hurt, and it only takes a second.

But, logically, you know it's ineffective. You know there are a thousand things you do, all day, that will really help your child turn out OK.

All I ask spankers to consider is that this may be just as true of spanking as it is of "abracadabra." People defend it with such passion sometimes -- I can't help feeling like they really do look at it as some sort of talisman, a last resort magic pill that they feel they must keep in their toolbox (whoa, talk about your mixed metaphors! :D ).

I want them to have the confidence to know that they have other resources, other skills, so that they can dump that meaningless use of pain, and learn better ways, or just realize that they are already doing a great job, and that the spanking is needless.

Why cause pain if you don't have to do so?

[roddma]

Maybe I spend to much time on child-free forums but I get the frustration about the lack of discipline.do blame the parents more than the kids. As far as verbal abuse, I was pointing out parents who allege no spanking often use other extreme measures

The pain for my DH was the parents divorce.

Believe me I would much rather have "Leave it to Beaver' type discipline. If you have to use spanking, constant yelling, everyday or belts etc you have truly failed.