Our Little Haven Blog

[Tiger Lily]

Don't miss her recipe for buttermik squirrel pie...mmm-mmm... :?

Or her post on her youngest crawling up the stairs and falling because the rail was missing a spindle...good Lord, they were worried she had broken her neck because she couldn't move her feet. And lady, that's not 'in and out of sleepiness', that's in and out of freakin' consciousness. It looks like they couldn't afford a baby gate.

ourlittlehaven.blogspot.com/2012/10/mercys-13-month-baby-post.html

Off topic, but I will never in my life understand people (this goes for fundies and non) who think that a horrible accident is a great time to take photos to post on one's blog/facebook/instagram. Thank Jeebus my parents were busy comforting me and talking with the doctors during my childhood mishaps and not busy snapping blog content...

ETA: They had to call 911 a second time after she started choking on a quarter. ourlittlehaven.blogspot.com/2014/01/she-did-it-again.html

Agreed. WTH was up with that??? I was frightened just reading about what happened to the little girl and Mom was taking pictures? Did you notice when they returned home from the hospital that she was promptly given a sucker? She was 13 months old eating a sucker that she could have easily choked on! I don't understand some people. I'm glad Mercy is okay, though.

[lemondrop]

I'm paging idly through this blog, and Nikki seems like a kind, sweet sort, if you ignore the rampant educational neglect and possibly a hoarding issue. She doesn't talk about religion much, so you can aaaalmost forget that you're reading a fundy blog, and then you get hit with stuff like this:

My hubby bought me a mint patty there that I cannot stop thinking about.I wish I had more.If my brother in law says its okay I plan to buy his pregnant wife(my sister in law)one the next time I go.Every pregnant lady needs some chocolate.It makes smiley babies.:)

She needs to ask a woman's husband for permission to buy her a piece of candy? How far down the rabbit hole of patriarchal insanity do these people go?!

[1tiredmama]

I disagree. The kids are not taken care of. They are without decent clean clothes. They need a bath in every single picture. Lack of dental care, the parents are either too stupid or neglectful to seek medical care. That is abuse.

[fun2beme]

I'm paging idly through this blog, and Nikki seems like a kind, sweet sort, if you ignore the rampant educational neglect and possibly a hoarding issue. She doesn't talk about religion much, so you can aaaalmost forget that you're reading a fundy blog, and then you get hit with stuff like this:

She needs to ask a woman's husband for permission to buy her a piece of candy? How far down the rabbit hole of patriarchal insanity do these people go?!

That's disturbing. I'm hoping that maybe, maybe (and even this is a stretch) the wife may have gestational diabetes and she and the husband are closely monitoring her diet? I prefer to put that scenario out there than picture the life that poor wife must have.

[Tish Cook]

I disagree. The kids are not taken care of. They are without decent clean clothes. They need a bath in every single picture. Lack of dental care, the parents are either too stupid or neglectful to seek medical care. That is abuse.

IT'S NOT ABUSE....they are poor. Have you ever been poor? I mean really poor? Yes they have 10 children with another on the way. Yes they live on a rural farm that is old and run down. Believe me, they are aware of that fact as well. The children are taken care of and loved. Not every parent has the ability to provide for their children as WE may seem fit. That does not, however, fall under the heading of abuse.

[Loveday]

IT'S NOT ABUSE....they are poor. Have you ever been poor? I mean really poor? Yes they have 10 children with another on the way. Yes they live on a rural farm that is old and run down. Believe me, they are aware of that fact as well. The children are taken care of and loved. Not every parent has the ability to provide for their children as WE may seem fit. That does not, however, fall under the heading of abuse.

I agree. I think it's just woeful ignorance and medical neglect, but I don't think the children are abused, especially not in the sense we would usually mean when we think of physical or mental abuse.

[Mama Mia]

I disagree. The kids are not taken care of. They are without decent clean clothes. They need a bath in every single picture. Lack of dental care, the parents are either too stupid or neglectful to seek medical care. That is abuse.

Like has been said before -- bad teeth does not necessarily equal lack of dental care- or even lack of good oral hygiene or a bad diet.

Some of the kids have bad teeth in their photos - some look just fine. They live on a farm, in the country. I would be more concerned if they looked sparkling clean all the time-- as it would mean they weren't allowed to play outside or get dirty. And I don't know what photos you're looking at, but I was actually struck by some of the great clothing deals/gifts she seemed to get for the kids. There are several photos of some gorgeous smocked dresses she scored at a thrift store.

Seriously, so many kids live in absolutely HORRIFiC conditions, that's what CPS is for. Not for a family that is poor but housed, some of the kids have bad teeth, and they don't measure up to some Internet strangers standards of cleanliness :roll:

What they could probably benefit from is a housing renovation program, to get some of the basic repairs done. Those are very, very hard to find, but if they have one in their area they could probably at least get double pane windows, insulation, etc... Since they live on the grandmas property it may be easier or more difficult- depending in particular eligibility requirements.

[formergothardite]

I think some encouragement to educate her children would be in order, but I don't think this is a case where CPS needs to swoop in a take children. They are clearly very poor and it seems like she has been overwhelmed for a long time. There are posts where it is clear that she realizes she has a problem with buying stuff and cluttering up the house with it, but she also doesn't seem to know how to stop. She does seem to take them to the doctor and dentist and the ER when needed.

[JMarie]

She's making the blog private.

[Coco]

Unsure. I am only about half way through 2012. What I have seen is that they accept a LOT of private charity - every other post is thanking someone for food or clothing they have received. They attend this every Friday, for example:

http://www.mccc-vt.org/our-programs

And Nikki has mentioned the Lions Club or some similar organization bringing them boxes of processed food. (Which she uses and it grateful for, though it seems she is a healthier cook relative to her limited resources- she grows tons of her own vegetables, milks her own cow and even has an occasional fresh meat animal).

In Nikki & Josh's defense, the charity dinners, while they may be necessary to her family's nutritional survival, expose their homeschooled, semi-sheltered to a variety of people. Nikki also seems to try to do her own charity as well- making things for friends in need, baking for church and community charity bake sales and giveaways, donating her own things back to the charity shops. She also doesn't seem to have any shame about what they receive and is truly grateful - and not in a we deserve because Jesus kind of way. I am not even sure she realizes that people see her in poverty and might raise an eyebrow at the things she accepts. She does not have a Gil Bates gimme cause I chose to have more kids than I can afford attitude in any way.

While I think the housing situation is sad, this is a poor, ignorant family. The kids are regularly in the presence of other people, including a United Way agency where they take dinner each Friday. The family is living on a long held family farm in a house the family has owned for generations. The community knows they are there. The children's great grandmother is right next door. There seems to be enough food, birthday parties, community members and family supporting them with the basics. Again, this is simple poverty and ignorance, not abuse. They need a solid social safety net and the Jesus kicked out of them, not CPS.

What they could probably benefit from is a housing renovation program, to get some of the basic repairs done. Those are very, very hard to find, but if they have one in their area they could probably at least get double pane windows, insulation, etc... Since they live on the grandmas property it may be easier or more difficult- depending in particular eligibility requirements.

Maybe instead of CPS a friend of theirs could contact Habitat for Humanity, or HUD or whatever it is near them. Or a local church program that does maintenance for older shut-ins. This family would definitely qualify. Even just friends could come over with a $20 gallon of paint and antibacterial wipes from the dollar store, those would go a long way to helping Nikki feel better about their situation.

[salex]

She's making the blog private.

I don't blame her.. Once CPS was mentioned, I'd have done the same thing, if I were she.

I still think that she is overwhelmed, but as I said, I can't snark on her for that. She seems to love her kids, which is far and away better than a lot of the people we read, and she is not hatefilled like many others.

[formergothardite]

Yeah, I don't blame her at all for making it private. I do think that her blog showed the reality of being quiverful. I think she tries to do her best with what she has, which is a lot more than people like Lori or Michelle Duggar did.

[treemom]

CPS main goal is not to remove children. In fact, they often help families find support so they can remain together.

[Mama Mia]

CPS main goal is not to remove children. In fact, they often help families find support so they can remain together.

Often, but not always. The tricky thing with CPS is that so much is at the discretion if the worker. They could get a great Social Worker who hooks them up with a whole house rehab, but they could also get a Social Worker who freaks out about dirt and those ten kids could be in six different foster homes for months while their parents try to figure out how to bring their house up to code with no help.

If they are already involved with United Way and other local charities it's unlikely CPS could offer any significant additional resources. They seem to already be linked to either Medicaid or some other health and dental program. They seem to be managing as far as food and clothing. I saw in one post that they did get a furnace.

Home repair programs can be very tricky. I have no idea what state they live in, but it's possible they could qualify for a lead paint abatement program and/or an energy savings program. The problem could be that they live on family owned property and aren't, themselves, senior or disabled. Sometimes families in that situation fall into a real Catch-22 with any federal government programs. If they personally owned the property, or were renting from unrelated people it would be less complicated. It's really unfortunate, because many people are in this situation, but the federal government seems to think that if your family owns property they should be able to financially support anyone on that property. So locally funded programs or churches/United Way are probably better options in their case.

[nomoxian]

I just glanced at the blog and didn't see anything that looked horribly dirty, other than small kids faces while they're eating or clothes that are worn to the point of looking kinda grubby...

But that 15 year old kids birthday party looks like it's more suited for a 5 year old party. What is it with fundies infantilizing their children?! I think that's abusive in and of itself.

[treemom]

Often, but not always. The tricky thing with CPS is that so much is at the discretion if the worker. They could get a great Social Worker who hooks them up with a whole house rehab, but they could also get a Social Worker who freaks out about dirt and those ten kids could be in six different foster homes for months while their parents try to figure out how to bring their house up to code with no help.

If they are already involved with United Way and other local charities it's unlikely CPS could offer any significant additional resources. They seem to already be linked to either Medicaid or some other health and dental program. They seem to be managing as far as food and clothing. I saw in one post that they did get a furnace.

Home repair programs can be very tricky. I have no idea what state they live in, but it's possible they could qualify for a lead paint abatement program and/or an energy savings program. The problem could be that they live on family owned property and aren't, themselves, senior or disabled. Sometimes families in that situation fall into a real Catch-22 with any federal government programs. If they personally owned the property, or were renting from unrelated people it would be less complicated. It's really unfortunate, because many people are in this situation, but the federal government seems to think that if your family owns property they should be able to financially support anyone on that property. So locally funded programs or churches/United Way are probably better options in their case.

I am pretty sure there is not a CPS in the world who views their main goal as to remove children. I am not advocating calling, in fact, I wonder if it has happened already by a mandatory reporter. But sometimes I get tired of the OMG CPS ONLY DEALS WITH HORRIBLE ABUSED CHILDREN. As if there isn't an indication there MAY be some medical neglect going on there. And I would not assume that just because they use the UW there are no other resources they need.

[Mama Mia]

I am pretty sure there is not a CPS in the world who views their main goal as to remove children. I am not advocating calling, in fact, I wonder if it has happened already by a mandatory reporter. But sometimes I get tired of the OMG CPS ONLY DEALS WITH HORRIBLE ABUSED CHILDREN. As if there isn't an indication there MAY be some medical neglect going on there. And I would not assume that just because they use the UW there are no other resources they need.

I've worked extensively with CPS, professionally, for 20 years. I'm sure there isn't a single agency whose official position is to go in and remove children immediately, and most workers and agencies work hard to develop systems to support families---but there are most definitely individual workers who DO pull kids in marginally struggling families routinely--- if it's a family type they have particular issues with.

To me, it's like calling the police, it's something you do when there is clear and present danger, or you've exhausted all your other resources. You don't call the cops because your neighbor has overgrown grass. It isn't just unfair to the neighbor - it's unfair to the cops, and unfair to the person down the street who is getting robbed while the cop is filling out a report regarding your neighbors weeds.

I'm sure there are resources they could use apart from what the United Way directly provides. I meant that if they are getting one type of help on a regular basis already they are almost certainly being provided information regarding local services, and typically there isn't a great deal of actual physical supports CPS can provide that aren't through other local organizations. In other words -- the Community Dinner Program they go to and CPS are probably working off the exact same list of who to call to get resources. The problem with the list, is that half the services will be out of funding, or have years long waits, or they won't be eligible for one reason or another.

Since someone posted the place they get dinner , I looked up their area and there does seem to be a weatherization program that could help them get insulation, upgraded refrigerator, new doors and windows etc....weatherization programs are great because they provide a ton of actual helpful tangible supports that would be cost prohibitive otherwise. Here's a link, if anyone has access to her, for some reason the weatherization programs aren't always linked in with other services, so it's possible she's not aware of it ( or maybe they are on a waiting list already)

http://www.cvoeo.org/index.cfm?fuseacti ... &dept_id=3

[dpndetfarm]

I agree. I think it's just woeful ignorance and medical neglect, but I don't think the children are abused, especially not in the sense we would usually mean when we think of physical or mental abuse.

I cannot believe you all read the same blog I did. This family is NOT ignorant. Mom may not have gone to college, but this woman is actually teaching her children, A LOT! Did any of you read about the museums and field trips those kids go on? How many of you would give your right arm to go to the Almanzo Wilder Museum? I would post the name of the museum that they go to that begins with S, but that would invade her privacy. It is world class. They garden, raise animals for meat, milk, and eggs. They tap every late winter during sap season. Let me tell you there is an unbelievable amount of science that goes into bringing that 40 gallons of sap into 1 gallon of syrup.

The house. It is a family home. Those old brick farm houses are EVERYWHERE in the area they live. Some are in better shape than others. They can be a money pit. I know, I grew up in an old farm house built in 1770ish. The yard too is a battle sometimes up here. Especially since their lawn mower died. My yard looked like that last year when my mower died. We now start ours with a screw driver, because it works and NEW ENGLANDERS ARE CHEAP!

Medical attention: In EVERY case of the blog I have read that someone needed medical attention that person got it. I was especially interested in the one daughter who got a bug in her eye and they couldn't get it out. They took the girl to the doctor! Exactly the opposite of someone else we read. The kid got an infection in his ankle. Sometimes hay or a stick or a prickler can get in the skin and it does infect fast. I would have put it in Epsom salts just like she did or if I got it earlier I would have put icthammol on it to draw the prickler out. If those didn't work I would have brought the kid in just like she did. By the way icthammol is magic. It's a drawing salve, but don't buy it at CVS etc. go to the feed store where you get a tub for half the price of a human tube.

She also went to the hospital when her last labor went bad and she THANKED the doctors and that god gave them the knowledge and expertise to treat her and baby. Isn't that what we complain about others NOT doing? This woman understands that her god gave us brains and we need to use them.

Dental: Everyone goes to the dentist in that family. I was originally shocked when I read about the daughter's teeth problems, but the more I read the more it seems like it's her teeth, not necessarily the dental care.

Cleanliness: Honestly I went back and looked close up to try to see the "filth" some of you were seeing. I see ancient doors and walls that will never look clean. If you are appalled by her house I guess you won't be coming to mine. :embarrassed: However I would bet money that those of you with super Clorox clean houses have more cases of sick kids than she or I ever have. Research shows houses without grime/germs/whatever make kids sicker. Exposure is key.

Thrifting: OK, she has a little addiction. She keeps it under control and gets rid of stuff too. I have been to several of the thrift stores she talks about and they are AWESOME!!! If I lived a little closer I might become a hoarder.

This family is fine. Poor, but fine. They are in a very compassionate state with a good healthcare system. The community is doing just what communities in northern New England do. This woman is aware and thankful for every little kindness done for her and repays those kindnesses in any way she can. She has a LOT of children. She and her husband love them, know them each as individuals, enjoy and are thankful for each little quirk. For a woman who stated that she is shy and sometimes uncomfortable around people, she is doing an amazing job of getting those kids out and about on a regular basis.

Sorry for the book. I don't know why the posts about this family irked me so much. Maybe because I grew up and still live in this area. Maybe because my children started out life in our own "trailer from hell" while we slowly built our house, kids running around outside naked for most of their life till kindergarten, getting filthy, sharing food with the dogs, bringing in snakes, and on and on. Including the balcony spindle that wasn't quite close enough to the one next to it. Our early walker grabbed it and swung around to the outside of it. Luckily her 3 yr old brother grabbed her overalls and swung her back in. Hubby put another spindle in on the spot. OK, I am good now.

[Mama Mia]

I cannot believe you all read the same blog I did. This family is NOT ignorant. Mom may not have gone to college, but this woman is actually teaching her children, A LOT! Did any of you read about the museums and field trips those kids go on? How many of you would give your right arm to go to the Almanzo Wilder Museum? I would post the name of the museum that they go to that begins with S, but that would invade her privacy. It is world class. They garden, raise animals for meat, milk, and eggs. They tap every late winter during sap season. Let me tell you there is an unbelievable amount of science that goes into bringing that 40 gallons of sap into 1 gallon of syrup.

The house. It is a family home. Those old brick farm houses are EVERYWHERE in the area they live. Some are in better shape than others. They can be a money pit. I know, I grew up in an old farm house built in 1770ish. The yard too is a battle sometimes up here. Especially since their lawn mower died. My yard looked like that last year when my mower died. We now start ours with a screw driver, because it works and NEW ENGLANDERS ARE CHEAP!

Medical attention: In EVERY case of the blog I have read that someone needed medical attention that person got it. I was especially interested in the one daughter who got a bug in her eye and they couldn't get it out. They took the girl to the doctor! Exactly the opposite of someone else we read. The kid got an infection in his ankle. Sometimes hay or a stick or a prickler can get in the skin and it does infect fast. I would have put it in Epsom salts just like she did or if I got it earlier I would have put icthammol on it to draw the prickler out. If those didn't work I would have brought the kid in just like she did. By the way icthammol is magic. It's a drawing salve, but don't buy it at CVS etc. go to the feed store where you get a tub for half the price of a human tube.

She also went to the hospital when her last labor went bad and she THANKED the doctors and that god gave them the knowledge and expertise to treat her and baby. Isn't that what we complain about others NOT doing? This woman understands that her god gave us brains and we need to use them.

Dental: Everyone goes to the dentist in that family. I was originally shocked when I read about the daughter's teeth problems, but the more I read the more it seems like it's her teeth, not necessarily the dental care.

Cleanliness: Honestly I went back and looked close up to try to see the "filth" some of you were seeing. I see ancient doors and walls that will never look clean. If you are appalled by her house I guess you won't be coming to mine. :embarrassed: However I would bet money that those of you with super Clorox clean houses have more cases of sick kids than she or I ever have. Research shows houses without grime/germs/whatever make kids sicker. Exposure is key.

Thrifting: OK, she has a little addiction. She keeps it under control and gets rid of stuff too. I have been to several of the thrift stores she talks about and they are AWESOME!!! If I lived a little closer I might become a hoarder.

This family is fine. Poor, but fine. They are in a very compassionate state with a good healthcare system. The community is doing just what communities in northern New England do. This woman is aware and thankful for every little kindness done for her and repays those kindnesses in any way she can. She has a LOT of children. She and her husband love them, know them each as individuals, enjoy and are thankful for each little quirk. For a woman who stated that she is shy and sometimes uncomfortable around people, she is doing an amazing job of getting those kids out and about on a regular basis.

Sorry for the book. I don't know why the posts about this family irked me so much. Maybe because I grew up and still live in this area. Maybe because my children started out life in our own "trailer from hell" while we slowly built our house, kids running around outside naked for most of their life till kindergarten, getting filthy, sharing food with the dogs, bringing in snakes, and on and on. Including the balcony spindle that wasn't quite close enough to the one next to it. Our early walker grabbed it and swung around to the outside of it. Luckily her 3 yr old brother grabbed her overalls and swung her back in. Hubby put another spindle in on the spot. OK, I am good now.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Thank you! I think people get so used to seeing a sparkly suburban upper- middle class lifestyle portrayed that they think it's the only way people should live. Especially if they have always lived in a similar fashion - or close to it.

Also, I think people tend to notice the medical mishaps and assorted injuries and accidents and illnesses these huge families blog about and freak out because they seem so frequent, or they never have had something similar happen with their own kids. But if you have. 6 or 8 or 12 kids you are just more likely to have a kid who has just fallen, or got an infection or a bad rash or had to take a trip to the E.R., just because there's so many of them them. Because they will always have a baby who you think is fussy due to teething but has an ear infection, or a toddler who is getting bumps and bruises getting into everything, or a six year old scraping themselves up playing.

Now if she was the blogger who purposefully let her kid have a burr in her eye so as not to interfere with the kids autonomy, or insisted on praying over a dying a child instead of going to the E.R. Or beating their kids half to death.... That's abuse and neglect.

Edited because " bed rash " and " bad rash" are not the same thing, and if your kid has bed sores there may be a concern :lol: .

[treemom]

I've worked extensively with CPS, professionally, for 20 years. I'm sure there isn't a single agency whose official position is to go in and remove children immediately, and most workers and agencies work hard to develop systems to support families---but there are most definitely individual workers who DO pull kids in marginally struggling families routinely--- if it's a family type they have particular issues with.

To me, it's like calling the police, it's something you do when there is clear and present danger, or you've exhausted all your other resources. You don't call the cops because your neighbor has overgrown grass. It isn't just unfair to the neighbor - it's unfair to the cops, and unfair to the person down the street who is getting robbed while the cop is filling out a report regarding your neighbors weeds.

I'm sure there are resources they could use apart from what the United Way directly provides. I meant that if they are getting one type of help on a regular basis already they are almost certainly being provided information regarding local services, and typically there isn't a great deal of actual physical supports CPS can provide that aren't through other local organizations. In other words -- the Community Dinner Program they go to and CPS are probably working off the exact same list of who to call to get resources. The problem with the list, is that half the services will be out of funding, or have years long waits, or they won't be eligible for one reason or another.

Since someone posted the place they get dinner , I looked up their area and there does seem to be a weatherization program that could help them get insulation, upgraded refrigerator, new doors and windows etc....weatherization programs are great because they provide a ton of actual helpful tangible supports that would be cost prohibitive otherwise. Here's a link, if anyone has access to her, for some reason the weatherization programs aren't always linked in with other services, so it's possible she's not aware of it ( or maybe they are on a waiting list already)

http://www.cvoeo.org/index.cfm?fuseacti ... &dept_id=3

And I am alive today because of CPS.

I do not consider a call to CPS like a call to 911 which is when you call for clear and present danger. You can and should call to report issues which are not clear, but someone with training should investigate. I am not saying this is appropriate with this family or anyone else. But lay people should not be determining what and what is not neglect and abuse. People should feel comfortable reporting what they fear could be an INDICATOR of abuse or neglect. Again, I said it is not the GOAL of CPS to remove kids. The goal is to protect children, although there are instances where children may be removed inappropriately or may be removed but upon further investigation.

But I am tired of hearing how it isn't appropriate to call CPS based on your fears, that is exactly when it is appropriate. Just like you shouldn't go investigate a break in before you call, lay people shouldn't be determining what is and is not the legal definition of abuse and neglect.

And CPS should be universally better funded, better staffed and their employees should be far better cared for.

[Mama Mia]

But I am tired of hearing how it isn't appropriate to call CPS based on your fears, that is exactly when it is appropriate. Just like you shouldn't go investigate a break in before you call, lay people shouldn't be determining what is and is not the legal definition of abuse and neglect.

And CPS should be universally better funded, better staffed and their employees should be far better cared for.

I agree to a point. If you see real people, in real life who you legitimately are worried about the children's health or safety, even if you're not sure it meets the definition, sure go ahead and call. But having Internet strangers calling CPS because a skim of their blog has them going " OMG , these kids and their house aren't as clean as I like, and get their clothes from a thrift store, and ewww , what a yucky house, and they have jacked up teeth! "

No. That isn't appropriate. Being poor is not a crime. Being a parent and having children and being poor is not a crime. It's not something that needs to be investigated by professionals, because it's not a crime.

I think it's especially concerning if you have people insisting they should be investigated based on reading a couple of posts on any blog, unless that particular entry states clearly that something abusive happened. If you read a post about Suzie needing a root canal, you might jump to dental neglect..but you might read the whole blog and see they go to the dentist regularly and just have lousy teeth ( for example -- I'm obviously projecting some on the dental issues here :) )

I don't know, it just seems reports based on blogs and reality shows and social media could just add a HUGe amount of needless hassle and drama to already over stressed CPS systems, and the families.

[treemom]

Agreed on what isn't a crime. And I suspect it real life if we were talking about this over beers we would be aligned. The internet loses nuance in people sometimes.

[fun2beme]

@ dpndetfarm - I agree. My dad was raised dirt poor in the 30s-40s. His dad was a coal miner and he had 14 siblings. My grandmother was his 2nd wife after the first one died, hence the large family. I've seen pics of my dad as a young boy, looking like a ragamuffin. No electricity until he was 15 and even then, it was because his younger sister and brother drowned in a stripping hole that the coal company didn't fence off. The settlement for losing two kids was $500 because the coal company totally took advantage of my grandparent's grief and lack of education. A few years later, the company paid $1,500 per person after a couple drowned in the same location.

Anyway - sorry about the ramble. Bottom line is that my dad says he never knew they were poor at the time because everyone around them lived the same way. He had schoolmates who wore the same clothes every day because they couldn't afford more than that. His family was actually considered well off because they raised chickens and had a chicken every Sunday for dinner, which was a huge luxury.

[Koala]

While I think the housing situation is sad, this is a poor, ignorant family. The kids are regularly in the presence of other people, including a United Way agency where they take dinner each Friday. The family is living on a long held family farm in a house the family has owned for generations. The community knows they are there. The children's great grandmother is right next door. There seems to be enough food, birthday parties, community members and family supporting them with the basics. Again, this is simple poverty and ignorance, not abuse. They need a solid social safety net and the Jesus kicked out of them, not CPS.

I totally agree.

[LilMissMetaphor]

But lay people should not be determining what and what is not neglect and abuse.