Our Little Haven Blog

[OneFifthQuiverFull]

I am just jumping in but to defend her "quicker they rot" thing ... my kids were all late teethers (a joke on sanctimonious nursing me who said often and loudly: Teeth are God's way of saying it's time for steak. I was exaggerating, but making my breastfeeding-is-best holier-than-thou proclamation. God got the last laugh because my nursing kids didn't break teeth until 12+ months...)

Anyway, I digress while laughing at myself 15 years ago and how I was such a know-it-all. My pediatrician said something similar about teeth remaining in the gums: That the longer they stayed in there the less time they were exposed to the elements, which could lead to decay. He didn't mean that they SHOULD rot, but that each day in their gums was a day longer they had to get strong and less time out in the world to, well, rot.

I am having a hard time explaining this, but the idea wasn't that they SHOULD rot, just that they are better in than out for the most part (in infancy especially, when they are NOT eating steak, LOL).

[nelliebelle1197]

I am just jumping in but to defend her "quicker they rot" thing ... my kids were all late teethers (a joke on sanctimonious nursing me who said often and loudly: Teeth are God's way of saying it's time for steak. I was exaggerating, but making my breastfeeding-is-best holier-than-thou proclamation. God got the last laugh because my nursing kids didn't break teeth until 12+ months...)

Anyway, I digress while laughing at myself 15 years ago and how I was such a know-it-all. My pediatrician said something similar about teeth remaining in the gums: That the longer they stayed in there the less time they were exposed to the elements, which could lead to decay. He didn't mean that they SHOULD rot, but that each day in their gums was a day longer they had to get strong and less time out in the world to, well, rot.

I am having a hard time explaining this, but the idea wasn't that they SHOULD rot, just that they are better in than out for the most part (in infancy especially, when they are NOT eating steak, LOL).

But her kids' teeth are rotting. She is always posting root canals and infections in their teeth. The now 14 year old has very yellowed, stained teeth- which may be natural but who knows? I think it is fine to say as a joke, but evidence points to real rot.

Do not look at March 2012 posts on how long she let an infection on 4 year old Silas' foot go before she sought help. The infection is as big as a palm.

[Mama Mia]

I found this explanation of "weak enamel" in children's teeth:

"The process of enamel formation (amelogenesis) begins before birth, and is sensitive to physiologic changes. The enamel of baby (primary) incisors begins to harden (mineralize) at about 15 week after conception, and the process of enamel maturation is finished two months after birth. The primary eye teeth (canines) begin their mineralization at 19 weeks of intrauterine life, and complete their enamel maturation process 9 months after birth. The cells that produce the enamel are called ameloblasts, and they are very sensitive to any developmental disturbances. Evidence of developmental insults, as well as perinatal and postnatal trauma, can therefore be seen in the enamel of the primary anterior teeth.

More than 75% of enamel defects in primary teeth are considered to be developmental in nature. Most developmental enamel defects (DED) occur in the middle third of the upper (maxillary) incisors. These location of these defects coincide with the location of the so-called neonatal line. This faint line, often visible on the facial surface of primary incisors, is thought to be caused by physiologic, transient, neonatal hypocalcemia. DED of maxillary incisors can be caused by: premature birth, systemic insults at birth, early childhood infections, nutritional problems, maternal illness or drug intake during pregnancy, or genetic problems associated with enamel formation."

So it can be hereditary but it also can be due to poor maternal and child nutrition and overall health. I think most dentists would agree that there are treatments available for "weak enamel" that can save teeth and just waiting for them to rot is unacceptable.

That's all very interesting! And definitely makes sense to me that a combination of a genetic disposition and a trauma/developmental steressors can cause the problem. Most of the people with truly awful teeth that I can think of had one parent with bad teeth and were either the younger sibling in closely spaced pregnancies and/or the mom had severe HG. Or, in my nephews case -- both parents had awful teeth from childhood- so that would seem to increase the likelihood of a genetic issue.

Do you happen to know what the treatments are for weak enamel ? Because my granddaughter could definitely use the help, and none of the dentists she's seen have offered any options. And it would certainly be great if she didn't lose all of her baby teeth before they come out naturally.

Also, do you happen to know if the same factors apply to the adult teeth-- or if maybe those will be in better shape? The family members I have with horrible baby teeth also had awful adult teeth.....my own teeth were fine until I ruined them through severe

All day " morning sickness" over multiple pregnancies. :ew:

The last time I was at the dentist he said he's seeing tons of teens with " meth mouth" except it's not from meth--- but from those high powered energy drinks-- Monster and Red Bull and the like- he said they wear the enamel right off.

[nelliebelle1197]

That's all very interesting! And definitely makes sense to me that a combination of a genetic disposition and a trauma/developmental steressors can cause the problem. Most of the people with truly awful teeth that I can think of had one parent with bad teeth and were either the younger sibling in closely spaced pregnancies and/or the mom had severe HG. Or, in my nephews case -- both parents had awful teeth from childhood- so that would seem to increase the likelihood of a genetic issue.

Do you happen to know what the treatments are for weak enamel ? Because my granddaughter could definitely use the help, and none of the dentists she's seen have offered any options. And it would certainly be great if she didn't lose all of her baby teeth before they come out naturally.

Also, do you happen to know if the same factors apply to the adult teeth-- or if maybe those will be in better shape? The family members I have with horrible baby teeth also had awful adult teeth.....my own teeth were fine until I ruined them through severe

All day " morning sickness" over multiple pregnancies. :ew:

The last time I was at the dentist he said he's seeing tons of teens with " meth mouth" except it's not from meth--- but from those high powered energy drinks-- Monster and Red Bull and the like- he said they wear the enamel right off.

If it makes you feel better, I had little enamel on my baby teeth thanks to a medicine my mom was prescribed while pregnant. My grown up teeth are very white, nice and straight!

[nelliebelle1197]

The mystery of Lydia Taxes has been solved!

She was born on April 15th!

ourlittlehaven.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2012-04-21T12:54:00-05:00&max-results=7&reverse-paginate=true

[Chowder Head]

bad teeth do run in families. My husband , and his siblings have horrid teeth problems. Their mom had some kind of condition where the teeth literally rot from the inside out. My husband actually had to get all his teeth pulled by the time he was 30 because of this. So they might actually have a genetic predisposition to teeth decay.

[Mama Mia]

bad teeth do run in families. My husband , and his siblings have horrid teeth problems. Their mom had some kind of condition where the teeth literally rot from the inside out. My husband actually had to get all his teeth pulled by the time he was 30 because of this. So they might actually have a genetic predisposition to teeth decay.

That's interesting that they rot from the inside out. I wonder if that's the issue with some of my family members? Cause they do have just AWFUL teeth.

The problem with having bad teeth is people can be really judgmental and assume they don't brush their teeth, only eat sugar, never go to the dentist etc...kids are seen as neglected and adults are seen as derelicts.

And good restorative dentistry is insanely expensive. Even if you have good dental insurance it's not going to cover much. And few people can afford to get $ 6,000 a tooth implants on every single tooth :shock:

[nelliebelle1197]

I think the reason it is easy to get judgy with Nikki is that she doesn't appear to be terribly clean. The kids' toys - including some walker thing they stick they baby in- are really visibly dirty in pictures and her walls and doorframes are covered with muck - and not in a ZooZoo dingy way, but really dirty. She is obviously fairly low income, but surely she can wipe down surfaces, especially those her infants are using. She has a number of kids home all day who can help clean - her boys cook quite a bit and do other "girl stuff". Poor does not equal dirty!

Additionally, I have seen a couple of posts where she has let kids' wounds get really infected before doing anything (see around the middle of March, 2012; can't pull the link cause I am tethered to my phone and need to save gigabytes until the internet installer dude is finished). She seems to have a fix the problem once you cannot ignore it relationship with healthcare rather than a proactive one.

[formergothardite]

I think the reason it is easy to get judgy with Nikki is that she doesn't appear to be terribly clean. The kids' toys - including some walker thing they stick they baby in- are really visibly dirty in pictures and her walls and doorframes are covered with muck - and not in a ZooZoo dingy way, but really dirty. She is obviously fairly low income, but surely she can wipe down surfaces, especially those her infants are using. She has a number of kids home all day who can help clean - her boys cook quite a bit and do other "girl stuff". Poor does not equal dirty!

Additionally, I have seen a couple of posts where she has let kids' wounds get really infected before doing anything (see around the middle of March, 2012; can't pull the link cause I am tethered to my phone and need to save gigabytes until the internet installer dude is finished). She seems to have a fix the problem once you cannot ignore it relationship with healthcare rather than a proactive one.

:pink-shock: Warning everyone. Do not go looking for that post if you have a weak stomach. :shock: Maybe our doctors are different but if I called and described anything close to that they would have said to come in immediately. My daughter once had a sore pop up and start looking red and swollen, but absolutely nothing like that, and I was told to bring her in just in case. How was he capable of putting on shoes and walking with his foot like that? The pain must have been horrible. And why does he often have blisters?

[nelliebelle1197]

:pink-shock: Warning everyone. Do not go looking for that post if you have a weak stomach. :shock: Maybe our doctors are different but if I called and described anything close to that they would have said to come in immediately. My daughter once had a sore pop up and start looking red and swollen, but absolutely nothing like that, and I was told to bring her in just in case. How was he capable of putting on shoes and walking with his foot like that? The pain must have been horrible. And why does he often have blisters?

Used, ill fitting shoes.

[trailmix2014]

WTH? How did she not notice that before it got that bad? That is horrifying! I'm sure that had to hurt him a lot before it got to that point. Did she just ignore it? He's 4. It's not like he's going to ignore pain. That poor little kid.. :(

[formergothardite]

Maybe if he constantly has blisters he is just used to pain? I feel so sorry for him. That had to have been hurting him pretty bad and there is no way Epsom salt was going to cure it.

[trailmix2014]

Poor guy.. My little guy gets hurt a lot(he's extremely active!) and even he would be fussing about that. Or at least showing me. Yeah, there is no way a home remedy would cure that.

[ILoveJellybeans]

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mama Mia]

:shock: :shock: That was awful!!

And what a weird place for a blister. It looks higher up than where a shoe would hit. When someone said an ankle blister, I pictured in the back, because I got those ALL the time as a kid----I guess I have extra narrow ankles. My mom would put little adhesive cushions in the inside of the shoe, but they would often come out - and hello blister.

I don't see how she could not have noticed that earlier, or not taken him in immediately, unless maybe ( hopefully) the infection was spreading very, very fast?

[formergothardite]

:shock: :shock: That was awful!!

And what a weird place for a blister. It looks higher up than where a shoe would hit. When someone said an ankle blister, I pictured in the back, because I got those ALL the time as a kid----I guess I have extra narrow ankles. My mom would put little adhesive cushions in the inside of the shoe, but they would often come out - and hello blister.

I don't see how she could not have noticed that earlier, or not taken him in immediately, unless maybe ( hopefully) the infection was spreading very, very fast?

He wears boots so maybe ill fitting boots caused it to be higher on his foot? It looks like his entire foot is infected by the time she took him in. The way she wrote it it seems like he went to the ER just a couple of hours after talking to the doctor. I can't imagine a doctor hearing a description of a sore like that and not wanting to see him immediately. Is it possible to go from a sore that doesn't need to be seen to an infection like that in just a couple of hours?

[Mama Mia]

He wears boots so maybe ill fitting boots caused it to be higher on his foot? It looks like his entire foot is infected by the time she took him in. The way she wrote it it seems like he went to the ER just a couple of hours after talking to the doctor. I can't imagine a doctor hearing a description of a sore like that and not wanting to see him immediately. Is it possible to go from a sore that doesn't need to be seen to an infection like that in just a couple of hours?

Thinking back, I actually got an infection once as a teen that swelled up like that incredibly fast. It was intensely painful and extremely gross. I guess I had somehow got a tiny little sliver under my big toe nail, couldn't even see anything wrong-- until my foot looked like a giant balloon. They had to cut along my toenail at the ER to drain it :ew: :oops: wow, that's one disgusting memory I didn't need to have recalled.

But yeah, it was really, really fast-- I went to school in the morning and it was fine, and I had to go home before lunch because it was so swollen I couldn't wear my shoe.

[Cartmann99]

In the post about his foot, Nikki mentions that the family was out chopping wood when they discovered that the foot was much worse and needed to be seen by a doctor. Instead of leaving ASAP for the hospital, they decided to go home and shower and change clothes before taking him to the ER. :pink-shock:

I don't have children, but if I were babysitting and saw that foot, I'd take that boy to the ER immediately no matter what I looked or smelled like at that moment. :angry-cussingblack:

[salex]

I feel sort of bad getting snarky with these people because I've yet to see them promoting too much hate filled dogma and I get the feeling they are in way over their heads. The house is very old, it appears, and very run down. They removed much of the kitchen interior a while back and the pic when the little girl was taken by the emts after her fall look like there is no ceiling, just the floorand floor joists of the room above the kitchen. There is another pic where the husband is putting in lights in the kitchen on one of the joists so they can can appleszuce. There are few interior shots, but they have a camper the kids watch tv and sometimes sleep in that comes up occasionally in the blog. The roof appears to be slate-- and they had blue tarp on it but it was still leaking-- one picture of her husband working on the roof shows a huge hole. The paint on the stairs is peeling, the walls look like bare plaster-- all in all it looks pretty run down. I notice we have lots of pictures but few of the rooms or even of the exterior of the house. The yard seems pretty overgrown and there are references to an old car they are going to try to get running again, etc. There is some reference to someone (grandfather?) tearing part of their house down.... not sure

Keeping old houses livable is not always easy. Keeping property mowed and dealt with is time consuming and keeping mowers going can be as well. And, the person who said you can be poor and clean is right-- the linoleum in the kid peeling the egg pic does look very dirty. I would have stopped bringing stuff into the house long ago, other than essentials, but I can't stand lots of "stuff"

I pity them but having more kids than you can afford is self destrictive. I can see myself becoming deeply depressed in her situation.

[formergothardite]

There have been several posts where she talks about bagging stuff up to take to Goodwill because the house was overwhelmed. But in the same trips she would go in and buy stuff. I think she has some sort of shopping/hoarding tendencies. She does seem to love her children a lot more than people like Debbie Pearl, Lori, or that large families on purpose woman. This is the reality of being quiverfull. They probably feel that no matter how bad things get they can't stop having children.

We live in an old house and it is a lot of work. Something is always breaking and if you are living on the edge of poverty it would be impossible to keep it in good shape. It is also hard to keep the house looking clean.

[1tiredmama]

Why isn't Children protection services not involved? Those kids have lack of clean safe housing, lack of food, lack of medical and dental care. No real education. Where do they live..I will make the call

[nelliebelle1197]

Why isn't Children protection services not involved? Those kids have lack of clean safe housing, lack of food, lack of medical and dental care. No real education. Where do they live..I will make the call

While I think the housing situation is sad, this is a poor, ignorant family. The kids are regularly in the presence of other people, including a United Way agency where they take dinner each Friday. The family is living on a long held family farm in a house the family has owned for generations. The community knows they are there. The children's great grandmother is right next door. There seems to be enough food, birthday parties, community members and family supporting them with the basics. Again, this is simple poverty and ignorance, not abuse. They need a solid social safety net and the Jesus kicked out of them, not CPS.

[Mama Mia]

Why isn't Children protection services not involved? Those kids have lack of clean safe housing, lack of food, lack of medical and dental care. No real education. Where do they live..I will make the call

I skimmed through the blog, so tell me if I missed something truly awful-- but what I saw was a loving family with lots of photos of happy looking kids, who do things like make applesauce, and get ice cream for a treat. There are tons of recipes posted, so presumably they eat.

The house is run down, but it's a house. There are over a million children in the U.S. who don't have a home. Many of them live in cars or parks.

Some of the kids appear to have bad teeth, and the mom does seem to wait a long time before going to the E.R. if a kid is sick or injured. But she does go, not insist on praying it away, or too scared to go because the authorities would realize she's a crack head. Reading a few of the illness /injury posts I think she's scared of hospitals - she always seems to want to make a good impression, wait to have her husband make the call, etc .. I agree there are times she should have been faster to get the kid to an e.r.- but that's the only thing I saw that was at all concerning, and that's always a tricky judgement call anyway-- she does seem to call and check with her doctor when anything might be serious.

They are obviously poor. Being poor is not a crime.

I'm really curious - --What exactly do you think would happen if you called CPS?

[formergothardite]

This is a very poor, not well educated family who probably got sucked in by the shiny, happy presentation that fundie quiverfuls put on. The rest of the family doesn't seem to be fundie or quiverful. When people like Lori go on about how you should continue having more kids even when you are in poverty and know that you can't take care of another child, she pictures in her mind the Duggars and the Bates but this is closer to the reality of it.

She does seem to try her best, but seems to have been overwhelmed a long time ago. She needs to educate her children, but, again, she has been sold the idea that she doesn't really need to. Just give the kids the Bible and they will be fine.

They seem a hell of a lot happier than the Maxwells.

[nelliebelle1197]

Look, I posted this blog to show the realities of a quiverfull family, not even to really snark, certainly not to get them in trouble. This is reality for people who have too many kids for Jesus, not the Bates, not the Maxwells, not the Duggars. But it is not abuse.