Richard Dawkins: Immoral not to abort a fetus with Down's

[formergothardite]

Well, I just don't know how to respond to someone who thinks a rat is better than my child. I thought long and hard about writing that post and hoped it would help her see that people with disabilities can learn, can grow as a person, can communicate and can give back to society, but clearly this isn't going to happen. To be honest it made me cry to read that. It really did. There are nasty people in the world.

My oldest, totally typical daughter only pets the cats too. All I can do is pet the cats because it is the job of the employees to do the other things. We can walk dogs, but that is what most people come to do and a lot of people forget the cats. So we pet cats. There was a failed attempt to let people walk cats, but the cats weren't going for it. :lol:

[samurai_sarah]

Sorry you had to read that, Formergothardite! Your daughter sounds like an all-around good human being, with a loving heart.

[JillsFlowerHeadband]

Well, I just don't know how to respond to someone who thinks a rat is better than my child. I thought long and hard about writing that post and hoped it would help her see that people with disabilities can learn, can grow as a person, can communicate and can give back to society, but clearly this isn't going to happen. To be honest it made me cry to read that. It really did. There are nasty people in the world.

My oldest, totally typical daughter only pets the cats too. All I can do is pet the cats because it is the job of the employees to do the other things. We can walk dogs, but that is what most people come to do and a lot of people forget the cats. So we pet cats. There was a failed attempt to let people walk cats, but the cats weren't going for it. :lol:

Please give your daughter a hug for me.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Well, I just don't know how to respond to someone who thinks a rat is better than my child. I thought long and hard about writing that post and hoped it would help her see that people with disabilities can learn, can grow as a person, can communicate and can give back to society, but clearly this isn't going to happen. To be honest it made me cry to read that. It really did. There are nasty people in the world.

My oldest, totally typical daughter only pets the cats too. All I can do is pet the cats because it is the job of the employees to do the other things. We can walk dogs, but that is what most people come to do and a lot of people forget the cats. So we pet cats. There was a failed attempt to let people walk cats, but the cats weren't going for it. :lol:

I'm so sorry. That was the shittiest, nastiest post I've ever read here.

Your daughter is loved, and contributes her love to the world. She's not out to be nasty or hurt anyone.

[dairyfreelife]

I am in total shock by the post. I cannot believe someone's child was compared to a rat on here and even less than a rat actually. Wow, just wow. No words. I am with you 2xx, the most horrible, hateful thing I have ever read on this site and any site.

FG, hugs to you. I am so, so sorry someone said such a thing. :cry: :hug4: :hug:

[Savoring Samsara]

If that post wasn't considered to be against the rules, then in my opinion the rules need to be reconsidered.

Curious, I appreciate this forum and the work you do, but between this and letting Gamergate supporters openly peddle their bullshit in Quiver Full of Misogyny, it honestly seems like Free Jinger is on the fast track to Freeze Peach-ing itself right out of being a viable community. In the end, your forum, your rules - but this is becoming ridiculous.

[thoughtful]

Formergothardite, hugs to you.

I haven't been acknowledging or answering IFTR's posts, for many reasons. But I've had a thought about this particular subject, and her intense reactions in general, so I'm putting my toe in the water again.

IFTR, I have a few stories for you. And if they don't educate you, maybe they will give some others arguments to use if they ever come up against someone who expresses such filthy ideas in the future.

I think you have mentioned that you were resentful of developmentally disabled students taking up time, teacher attention and money that could have gone to others when you were in school.

I've taught in a public school system. It never occurred to me that we were only trying to turn out adults who would be "worth" the taxpayers money by filling certain functions. Your view of education sounds almost like the fundie scare tactics about public schools turning out automatons for the machine.

We had a few students that spent much of their day in small groups for instruction. And, for some of the day, they were mainstreamed. Even as pro-mainstreaming as I am, I know that the system sometimes needs some fine-tuning.

I worked with a group of kids who were mainstreamed for music class twice a week, and I felt that they weren't getting enough out of the class. With one exception, they did tend to sit there. We decided to try having them meet with me once a week without the full class. The class with just those kids was a revelation -- they came out of their shells, learned much more, and a kid I'd never heard speak became the question-answering champ.

Just like my students, the students who disgusted you may have been doing lots of activities when you didn't see them, and may have been more able than you know.

Of course, you could have been in a shitty school system that just sat those kids in a classroom and called it education and mainstreaming -- if so, shame on the school system. But it doesn't mean that those kids aren't worth our effort and taxpayer dollars.

Are these kids my only experience? Am I romanticizing because they were little kids and we made some progress? I don't think so. In a summer vacation program, I've worked with nonverbal adults who needed their diapers changed (and I changed them), ate mush, drooled and were sometimes hard to figure out emotionally. I hope we did them some good.

They had been warehoused as children, in the 1920s-60s -- maybe they had more potential than anyone knew. They were also, BTW, a tiny minority in the population we worked with -- most developmentally disabled people are clearly very much in this world, learning and showing their feelings.

In that program, I also worked with people who, decades ago, were warehoused due to much more moderate disabilities, some just due to being orphaned, and who did descend into being less functional than they might have been with an education and staying with their families. They were thrown away for not fitting the standards of their time for being able to live independently and not be an embarrassment, and that is a tragedy.

Times change, and medicine and education make advances. Maybe, if we continue to care about them and work with them, someone will find a way to further the learning abilities of the students you see as drooling nobodies. In the meantime, the rest of us see a person there, regardless of skill level.

Another story I think is relevant -- during a therapy-dog visit to a nursing home I hadn't been to before, a man started chatting away while petting my dog. The staff members reacted with shock, then joy. Turns out he hadn't talked in years, and they thought he was no longer capable. In fact, I have quite a few stories about people you might disdain from my therapy dog visits, stories that clearly showed that there was an interesting human being in a less-than-ideal exterior, and more potential than a first glance might reveal.

Finally, I have an interest in the mysterious and bizarre illness known as encephalitis lethargica, that swept through the world in the 1920s. I suggest looking it up (for anyone here interested in the mind, medical history, or just a fascinating story). Many people who had it withdrew into a kind of apparently mindless state. But inside, many were still feeling and seeing all.

Oliver Sacks' experience with some of these patients was chronicled in the book Awakenings, and dramatized in the film of the same name. There is a scene in the film:

Dr. Sayer: What must it be like to be them? What are they thinking?

Dr. Peter Ingham: They're not. The virus didn't spare the higher faculties.

Dr. Sayer: We know what for a fact?

Dr. Peter Ingham: Yes.

Dr. Sayer: Because?

Dr. Peter Ingham: Because the alternative would be unthinkable

Ingham wants to believe that there was nothing in there.

But there was. And, as horrible as it was for him to imagine they were intelligent and trapped, it was even more unthinkable to give up and see these people as inhuman, not worth trying to reach, even though what they had was incurable, and left many of them as seemingly mindless, drooling, empty shells.

My points?

1.These are people we are talking about -- your fellow human beings, whether you like it or not.

2. You don't know everything -- there are things going on, all around you, about which others are more expert than you. If something is not your bailiwick, you might want to think about learning more before you come to absolute and ugly conclusions about other people.

3. The investment of time and money in educating children is not just about getting our money's worth in return to society (whatever that would be, and however the hell we would try to measure it).

4. I can't believe I have to point this out to a fellow Jew, and I hate to Godwin, but thoughts like "these people aren't really people" and "I've decided these people don't deserve to live" are unacceptable, and a potential slippery slope. A whole government once thought your relatives and mine were trash to be burned. That's not anywhere I want to see the world go again.

5. As amazing as medical science is, we can never see through another's eyes or hear through their ears -- that's why vision and hearing checks are interactive. Likewise, we can never know their mind. To me, taking the chance that there is "nothing in there" is immoral.

IFTR, your morality and maturity level are none of my business -- I'm just some stranger on the Internet. But you might want to give this some thought.

If you are just trolling, trying to get a rise out of people, fuck you -- this kind of trolling is cruel, and the "ooooh, I'm so dirty" stuff is pretty easy to ignore.

If you are sincere, giving a good hard look to how you came by some of your prejudices and why you react at such a babyish, gut level to so much, might be worth a try.

I have no idea if this has done any good. But, like I said, others may have some use for my stories.

And I do believe in trying to educate -- even those some would consider ineducable.

[It'sFunToRun]

To clarify about what I said about petting cats: I didn't say that it's not a good thing or that it doesn't help the cats, I said that it's not impressive. Most little kids would love the opportunity to go pet cats. I know I would have seen it as a huge treat.

I don't get why a kid would be ooh'ed and ahh'ed over for doing something really easy and really fun, when the grown ups do all the work to get them there, set up, etc.

[It'sFunToRun]

Rats aren't people.

Turtles aren't people.

People with disabilities are people.

I am pretty sure Formergothardite's daughter petting cats contributes far more to society than you did by making this post.

EAT: skydiving isn't swimming.

So we get back to the question: what makes a human human? Why do humans go to school and not animals?

If a really smart chimpanzee was capable of learning history and mathematics, I honest to G-d would not have a problem with him learning in a classroom with my (hypothetical) child. On the other hand, I would not be comfortable with someone digging up a dead child and bringing his corpse to school because he is a child, after all.

You say skydiving isn't swimming, and similarly, learning to moan when you're hungry or whatever isn't learning fourth grade science.

[It'sFunToRun]

ItsFunToRun, you were doing so well for a little while there! You did that apology that sounded sincere and everything. But, seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you to write that post? I get, that for whatever reason, you have an absolutely obsessive and irrational fear of people with developmental disabilities. But seriously, you are coming off not just as opinionated, or just an ignorant bitch -- but as flat out unhinged and out of touch with any normal reality on this subject. I understand getting so wrapped up in an argument on here that you get more strident and entrenched than is normal. But, again, What The Fuck is wrong with you?

And your " points" don't even make any sense. Yes, schools exist to teach people things. Public Schools exist to teach and educate children. That is EXACTLY what FormerGothardites daughter is doing! It may not be the same thing as another kid, but that doesn't make it less important.

Also, absolute bullshit on volunteering not including petting cats as an important part of volunteering. One of my teens, who has no developmental disabilities, volunteered at an Animal Shelter in high school -- giving the animals affection was her assigned job. Because animals that get attention are calmer and healthier and easier to adopt, and it's not something the staff has time to do. If you think about it, instead of just blindly reacting-- you would see that's just common sense. A cat who isn't having human contact will become fearful or aggressive - not a good selling point. Perhaps you should consider it.

Could you elaborate on which points don't make any sense and why? FormerGothardite's daughter does not have the intellectual capabilities to learn what is being taught at public school; she is like a rat being brought to school. FormerGothardite's daughter might learn to moan when she's hungry, but that's not what is being taught at school's; it's like going to a swim class and demanding skydiving lessons.

Point taken about the cats, but I'm guessing your teen was able to make her own arrangements to get there, which is more than just having everything fall into your lap like with FormerGothardite's mentally disabled daughter.

[It'sFunToRun]

I have been sitting here for 20 minutes trying to decide how to respond to the post that IFTR wrote and have just been at quite a loss. I'm rarely speechless, but this is one time that I am.

I'm not sure how comparing a child being in school to bringing a rat or turtle into a school is could even a rational argument by anyone, no matter how much of a "hot button" issue it is for you.

It's one thing to talk in abstracts like IFTR normally does, but it's completely another to actually address the mother of a child personally like she has done here. The post didn't break any rules, so it was let through, but that doesn't mean we feel good about things like this happening.

I know that in the past I have been supportive of IFTR's contributions to the community and have posted positively about some of her postings. I have tried working privately with her to help her integrate better into the community, but over the last few days it has become clear to me that while I am relatively sure she is capable of being a good community member and a positive for the community, she doesn't really have a desire to maintain the level of maturity necessary for that to happen.

This doesn't really change anything other than my level of disappointment and at this point my "support" (such as it is) for her as an asset to the community. Her posts will still be approved if they don't break any rules, just like they always have been.

Formergothardite, I'm sorry that you had to read something like this on FJ (or anywhere, obviously). I hope you consider the source and don't let it upset you. If you want to talk me to about it, feel free to send me a PM.

Because they are about equally capable of learning. I guess rats are considered gross and pests, so I should have used parrots instead to make the post less offensive.

I didn't want to disappoint you. We have different opinions on this issue and it's not fair for you to get disappointed because someone doesn't change her beliefs to match yours. It's reasonable to have expectations about behavior, but not about beliefs. Not only did I not use the forbidden word, but I didn't use any of the other non-forbidden words that are much more offensive than "mentally disabled".

[It'sFunToRun]

Well, I just don't know how to respond to someone who thinks a rat is better than my child. I thought long and hard about writing that post and hoped it would help her see that people with disabilities can learn, can grow as a person, can communicate and can give back to society, but clearly this isn't going to happen. To be honest it made me cry to read that. It really did. There are nasty people in the world.

My oldest, totally typical daughter only pets the cats too. All I can do is pet the cats because it is the job of the employees to do the other things. We can walk dogs, but that is what most people come to do and a lot of people forget the cats. So we pet cats. There was a failed attempt to let people walk cats, but the cats weren't going for it. :lol:

Usually if I made someone cry because I called them a "bitch" or something, I would tell them not to let words bother them. In this case though, I feel more like a doctor telling you that your child has cancer and will die in a year, rather than telling you that her blood cells are just "special" and "different" but just as good as anyone else's. I feel bad that you are in such a shitty situation, but I don't think denial is the way to go.

Is there anything I could say to comfort you without pretending that your daughter's "learning" is significant to anyone except you or pretending that her existence isn't harming other children? In real life, I would give you a hug, if you wanted it. I don't think you're a bad person, just that you're doing a bad thing in one of life's many facets.

[It'sFunToRun]

If that post wasn't considered to be against the rules, then in my opinion the rules need to be reconsidered.

Curious, I appreciate this forum and the work you do, but between this and letting Gamergate supporters openly peddle their bullshit in Quiver Full of Misogyny, it honestly seems like Free Jinger is on the fast track to Freeze Peach-ing itself right out of being a viable community. In the end, your forum, your rules - but this is becoming ridiculous.

Yes, yes, silence all views that disagree with yours! Silence them! :shhh:

[It'sFunToRun]

Finally, I have an interest in the mysterious and bizarre illness known as encephalitis lethargica, that swept through the world in the 1920s. I suggest looking it up (for anyone here interested in the mind, medical history, or just a fascinating story). Many people who had it withdrew into a kind of apparently mindless state. But inside, many were still feeling and seeing all.

Oliver Sacks' experience with some of these patients was chronicled in the book Awakenings, and dramatized in the film of the same name. There is a scene in the film:

Ingham wants to believe that there was nothing in there.

But there was. And, as horrible as it was for him to imagine they were intelligent and trapped, it was even more unthinkable to give up and see these people as inhuman, not worth trying to reach, even though what they had was incurable, and left many of them as seemingly mindless, drooling, empty shells.

I'd rather be killed than trapped like that in my body.

1.These are people we are talking about -- your fellow human beings, whether you like it or not.

But what makes them so special? Mentally they are worse than animals. Why is their body so important?

2. You don't know everything -- there are things going on, all around you, about which others are more expert than you. If something is not your bailiwick, you might want to think about learning more before you come to absolute and ugly conclusions about other people.

I know that I don't know everything, but I to the best of my understanding, educating these people is a waste of resources and harms normal, healthy children. If someone decides that parrots should go to school with human children, should I go along with it because I don't know everything about parrots?

3. The investment of time and money in educating children is not just about getting our money's worth in return to society (whatever that would be, and however the hell we would try to measure it).

Agreed.

4. I can't believe I have to point this out to a fellow Jew, and I hate to Godwin, but thoughts like "these people aren't really people" and "I've decided these people don't deserve to live" are unacceptable, and a potential slippery slope. A whole government once thought your relatives and mine were trash to be burned. That's not anywhere I want to see the world go again.

What does "I hate to Godwin" mean? Slippery slope is a fallacy, not an argument that you should use.

[Curious]

If that post wasn't considered to be against the rules, then in my opinion the rules need to be reconsidered.

Curious, I appreciate this forum and the work you do, but between this and letting Gamergate supporters openly peddle their bullshit in Quiver Full of Misogyny, it honestly seems like Free Jinger is on the fast track to Freeze Peach-ing itself right out of being a viable community. In the end, your forum, your rules - but this is becoming ridiculous.

I will be honest and say that I don't read QFoM, so I have no idea what you are talking about or what Gamergate is :( I don't believe any posts in QFoM were reported, though. Usually reports are discussed by the helpmeets, at least in passing, to keep everyone on the same page. I don't see anything about QFoM/Gamergate being discussed.

We can't have a free speech site and only have speech we like. It's just not the way it works. It means that sometimes we have things posted that we don't agree with, but the way we combat that is exactly what we are doing, speaking out against it.

What rule do you think the post in question is violating? I'm willing to listen to other opinions, as I normally am, but I can't think of a rule that it violates. Being a horrible, uncaring, insensitive person is not against our rules.

I will take a look in QFoM to see what you are talking about, but to be honest we do rely on members to report posts that are breaking rules because the forum is large and there is no way that we can keep up with every post. If I'm mistaken and posts were reported and I missed it, I apologize in advance.

[lilith]

Because they are about equally capable of learning. I guess rats are considered gross and pests, so I should have used parrots instead to make the post less offensive.

I didn't want to disappoint you. We have different opinions on this issue and it's not fair for you to get disappointed because someone doesn't change her beliefs to match yours. It's reasonable to have expectations about behavior, but not about beliefs. Not only did I not use the forbidden word, but I didn't use any of the other non-forbidden words that are much more offensive than "mentally disabled".

You didn't use that word or break any rules, which is why I just approved a stack of your posts.

I, as a poster, not as a helpmeet, am one of the bigger advocates of almost 100% free speech here, and I agree that you have every right to say what you have.

That said, just because I believe you have a right to say something doesn't mean that I consider it a wise or kind decision for you to choose to do so. You are being unnecessarily hurtful - you could make your point in ways that don't personalise the issue and make a fellow board member cry.

If you are genuinely trying to engage in this discussion, as opposed to trying to push boundaries and shock, please consider that what may be a purely intellectual concept for you isn't that way for everyone. Your hypotheticals represent, for some posters, people that they love very much.

[shedemei]

I will be honest and say that I don't read QFoM, so I have no idea what you are talking about or what Gamergate is :( I don't believe any posts in QFoM were reported, though. Usually reports are discussed by the helpmeets, at least in passing, to keep everyone on the same page. I don't see anything about QFoM/Gamergate being discussed.

Oh god, GamerHate is maddening.

There was only one thread on it that I know of, and while a few supporters popped in they didn't strike me as the rabid MRA type. I think the thread died a natural death.

[Mama Mia]

Could you elaborate on which points don't make any sense and why? FormerGothardite's daughter does not have the intellectual capabilities to learn what is being taught at public school; she is like a rat being brought to school. FormerGothardite's daughter might learn to moan when she's hungry, but that's not what is being taught at school's; it's like going to a swim class and demanding skydiving lessons.

Point taken about the cats, but I'm guessing your teen was able to make her own arrangements to get there, which is more than just having everything fall into your lap like with FormerGothardite's mentally disabled daughter.

I am going to use every tiny bit of patience I have left on my already frayed nerves and try to engage you like you actually are interested in real conversation.

But NOBODY is going to want to talk to you if you continue to use offensive language for the sole purpose of trying to show how much of a bitch you can be. This isn't yahoo answers. This isn't youtube. It seems like you really have a hard time understanding the difference between having an actual conversation and debate on topics ( which can get heated) - and just slinging out the most hurtful and crass statements you can think of. I know you seem to think you are making some sort of point about free speech and how words shouldn't hurt people and they have too much power and all of that.

But that's not at all what is coming across to people. All you are doing is obliterating any consideration any sane person would give to your thoughts. Truthfully the only analogy I can think of is a very young teen who is wanting to impress everyone with her use of bad words and shocking statements -- but it provokes an angry response at first, but after awhile it's just sad and pathetic and you do your best to not have to deal with the kid at all.

And what's unfortunate, is that posts you have on the many other topics -- where you manage to give actual opinions that make for interesting discussions -- those posts aren't even going to be seen by many people -- because you're foed because you just can't stop yourself from acting like a deranged bitch on this topic. Or every post someone reads with your name will be read through the screen of " oh, fuck her, anything she says is going to be fucking awful" - even if it's on something as innocuous as Jessa Duggar's wedding. You can go on and on about free speech and differing opinions, but if no ones listening because you are so fucking unbelievably obnoxious on this topic -- what good is that going to do you?

Okay, on to the points about education and cats.

Public school resources can be used to pay for a wide variety of education to suit the individual needs of children. One kid might be in advanced math, another might be in basic math. One might take art another music. And one kid might need to learn how to communicate in creative ways. So fucking what? I really, truly do not understand how it hurts you, or anyone else, if there a range of services to meet a range of needs. If your issue is that it's a waste of resources, I can think of many, many much more wasteful uses of my tax money. For fucks sake we bailed out AIG for 185 Billion Dollars!

And regarding the cats and my kid. Were you a feral child? Because you seem to be unaware that parents take care of their children. The amount of care they need varies. By age, by situation, by many, many factors. I think your " having it handed to her" regarding FormerGothardites daughter shows you're just looking for fights. No, for my 14 year old daughter I had to actually go with her to sign all sorts of permission paperwork, if I recall the placement was picked from a list her school set up in advance, and I had to drive her to and from every time because she was too young too drive and it was too far off the bus line. So it basically required just as much effort from the parent for my typical teen to do the exact same job as FormerGothardites daughter. The only difference is I didn't volunteer too cause I don't particularly like animals.

[formergothardite]

I'm not going to respond to IFTR, but I do not have a problem with her posts being allowed. I should have not written that post, but I had read her post about wanting to be a better person and thought she was open to learning more about how people with mental disabilities can learn to communicate(not just grunt, my daughter can use communication devices to tell me things) and learn, yes, she has an IEP and she is meeting learning goals. Clearly she is not to IFTR doesn't care about learning and is just going to be as nasty as possible. But free speech means that she can be as nasty and mean to me as possible if I put information out there about my daughter.

I do find it weird that she is so hung up on how my youngest daughter can't have actually been doing anything for society since we had to drive her there and she is only petting cats, yet my oldest daughter who has no disabilities got an good citizenship award from her public school for doing the exact same thing. So it appears that the public school leaders disagree strongly with IFTR when it comes to children doing volunteer work.

[Savoring Samsara]

Oh god, GamerHate is maddening.

There was only one thread on it that I know of, and while a few supporters popped in they didn't strike me as the rabid MRA type. I think the thread died a natural death.

Yes, it was fairly mild. And I will admit that it did not break the rules as they currently stand, which is why I did not report any of the posts. I'll also admit that after seeing the actions of supporters of that movement elsewhere online (which include doxxing and death threats, though I'll hasten to add that none of that happened here), I seriously side-eye anyone who expresses any degree of support for it. Personal squick, and I am relieved that the thread died anyway.

I know my opinion is out of step with board culture. I still felt that I needed to express it. I still like this forum and I'm not flouncing. Nothing more to say.

[It'sFunToRun]

I actually wasn't trying to be as nasty as I could have been. What you read was actually the edited version after I took some offensive stuff out. I should have edited even more. It is difficult to express my opinion on this topic without it being offensive to some people, but I could have at least made it better.

Okay, on to the points about education and cats.

Public school resources can be used to pay for a wide variety of education to suit the individual needs of children. One kid might be in advanced math, another might be in basic math. One might take art another music. And one kid might need to learn how to communicate in creative ways. So fucking what? I really, truly do not understand how it hurts you, or anyone else, if there a range of services to meet a range of needs. If your issue is that it's a waste of resources, I can think of many, many much more wasteful uses of my tax money. For fucks sake we bailed out AIG for 185 Billion Dollars!

My issue is that now advanced math will be canceled because "learning to communicate by tapping your leg to say "I'm hungry"" is being taught instead. Why can't the severely mentally disabled kids just be kept in nursery school with the babies who also get their diapers changed and get hand fed? It seems like a much better fit for everyone.

And regarding the cats and my kid. Were you a feral child? Because you seem to be unaware that parents take care of their children. The amount of care they need varies. By age, by situation, by many, many factors. I think your " having it handed to her" regarding FormerGothardites daughter shows you're just looking for fights. No, for my 14 year old daughter I had to actually go with her to sign all sorts of permission paperwork, if I recall the placement was picked from a list her school set up in advance, and I had to drive her to and from every time because she was too young too drive and it was too far off the bus line. So it basically required just as much effort from the parent for my typical teen to do the exact same job as FormerGothardites daughter. The only difference is I didn't volunteer too cause I don't particularly like animals.

I just don't think it's fair that she gets the opportunity to do something that other kids would love to do, and then she gets praised for it. Honestly, I don't think it's fair that FormerGothardite's other daughter gets awards for it either. It's like kids who win science fairs when it's their parents who did the entire thing.

[It'sFunToRun]

You didn't use that word or break any rules, which is why I just approved a stack of your posts.

I, as a poster, not as a helpmeet, am one of the bigger advocates of almost 100% free speech here, and I agree that you have every right to say what you have.

That said, just because I believe you have a right to say something doesn't mean that I consider it a wise or kind decision for you to choose to do so. You are being unnecessarily hurtful - you could make your point in ways that don't personalise the issue and make a fellow board member cry.

If you are genuinely trying to engage in this discussion, as opposed to trying to push boundaries and shock, please consider that what may be a purely intellectual concept for you isn't that way for everyone. Your hypotheticals represent, for some posters, people that they love very much.

Thank you for approving my posts lilith, I appreciate it. You are my favorite helpmeet, btw.

[It'sFunToRun]

Well, I just don't know how to respond to someone who thinks a rat is better than my child. I thought long and hard about writing that post and hoped it would help her see that people with disabilities can learn, can grow as a person, can communicate and can give back to society, but clearly this isn't going to happen. To be honest it made me cry to read that. It really did. There are nasty people in the world.

My oldest, totally typical daughter only pets the cats too. All I can do is pet the cats because it is the job of the employees to do the other things. We can walk dogs, but that is what most people come to do and a lot of people forget the cats. So we pet cats. There was a failed attempt to let people walk cats, but the cats weren't going for it. :lol:

I'm sorry for offending you. :(

[Anny Nym]

... just my 2 cents, even if I may be late to the discussion:

@It´sFunToRun

I have (like others) no problem whatsoever with you speaking your mind freely and wish you to do so for the rest of your life. Not everyone is that lucky.

You may pick up a history book or two, although ... or a whole class maybe.

Because, a RAT to human comparison? Talking about certain children having no place in public schools? "worse than animals.../ ...waste of resources"?

It is probably not my place to point that out furthermore, maybe another FJ user should do that to you in private. And give you a literature list.

***

About the topic of disabled children and giving them a place of sufficient importance in society:

One of my SILs actually does work on a state-funded project as a medical scientist, that basically does exactly the same as @formergothardite does, when she´s volunteering with her daughter to the cats in the animal shelter. Just in a bigger frame, with groups of children, teens and grown-up of different grades of disabilities and at a prominent shelter for abadones house and farm animals.

And the results DO make a differnce.

I can´t link to any research data of her yet, because it´s "work in progress" and also for anonymity, but if anyone is interested I can tell about it a bit?

[2xx1xy1JD]

I'm not going to respond to IFTR, but I do not have a problem with her posts being allowed. I should have not written that post, but I had read her post about wanting to be a better person and thought she was open to learning more about how people with mental disabilities can learn to communicate(not just grunt, my daughter can use communication devices to tell me things) and learn, yes, she has an IEP and she is meeting learning goals. Clearly she is not to IFTR doesn't care about learning and is just going to be as nasty as possible. But free speech means that she can be as nasty and mean to me as possible if I put information out there about my daughter.

I do find it weird that she is so hung up on how my youngest daughter can't have actually been doing anything for society since we had to drive her there and she is only petting cats, yet my oldest daughter who has no disabilities got an good citizenship award from her public school for doing the exact same thing. So it appears that the public school leaders disagree strongly with IFTR when it comes to children doing volunteer work.

If inability to learn despite intense resources was the criteria for being human - well, IFTR has demonstrated a remarkable inability to learn, coupled with a total disregard for the basic rights and feelings of others.

Your daughter, OTOH, IS learning, isn't hurting anyone and has shown that she has the capacity for love and compassion.