Richard Dawkins: Immoral not to abort a fetus with Down's

[Marianne]

In the beginning, when I had my first electric wheelchair, I feel so guilty when I hurt people in the street. Now... My wheelchair make noise. My therapy dog bark at the people. So, if they don't move after some barking and "sorry, can you move", I *accidentally* hurt them with the weelchair. In high school, people quickly learned to move away from the weelchair so they would not receive the 150 kgs of the weelchair on the feet (and believe me, it HURTS). This morning, in the metro, a man try to move the wheelchair while I was reading. He then scream on me because he can't move it. Of course, you can't move it, it's ELECTRIC :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead:

[nausicaa]

I don't know how I'd feel about strangers offering help in general. I rarely get out, and when I do I have a family member with me. I actually think it might be nice if I'm in obvious distress and someone offered to help. I've had two occasions where I've fallen over with the rollator ( I'm still getting used to it and balance is my main issue) ...in a crowded public place..and Not one person offered to help or did anything but stare. That was pretty fucked up in my opinion.

Or even just move out of the way. If I'm in a crowded place, like a festival, or a busy sidewalk, you would think people would realize it's much easier for them to maneuver to the side to pass -- but mostly they don't. And will either block the way, or do the physically pushing to the side that others have mentioned. Seriously, I had no idea how rude so many people are until I was in this situation.

I just wish people wouldn't act like I actual WAS the rollator, instead of an actual human being. Or a novelty that they are free to just ask random questions. Or the well meaning but creepy " God Bless You" , which just isn't done here.

This conversation is really interesting and educational for me.

I always struggle with whether or not to ask a disabled person if he/she needs help, because I heard from several people with disabilities that they hated that and only help if you are asked to. But yeah, I would totally help someone who tipped over in their Rollator. Besides, to me that's no different than helping a woman who is splayed out on the pavement because her high heel broke so the "disability" element doesn't really come into play. (And I'm really sorry that happened to you MamaMia, I fell on slick pavement a few times overseas and no one offered to help me up, partially because I was "foreign" and looked different, and it was a really shitty, dehumanizing feeling).

There are other situations when I don't know what to do, like if a smaller or older person is trying to get their manual wheelchair up an incline and I'm behind them. I don't want to be condescending, and I don't want to accidentally injure them even if they tell me to push it, but is it different than me offering to get something off a high shelf for a shorter person? (I'm ridiculously tall, this happens a lot). I still don't really know.

I'll admit, I'm also more hesitant to offer help to a man with a disability. Not because I think women are weaker, but because there's that machismo thing coming into play. My cashier at a craft store a few months ago only had one arm (not one natural arm and a prosthetic on the other, but one right arm and then no left one). He was having a LOT of trouble getting the plastic bag open to put my purchase into and I was so tempted to just reach over the six inches and open the bag for him. But we were close to the same age, and he seemed embarassed, and I didn't want him to feel infantilized so I just stared at some magazines awkwardly while he did it. It was a routine part of his job, not an unexpected accident he needed help with, so I felt weird interfering.

[StacyW]

This is turning out to be a very interesting education, and i have a couple of questions for people who use wheelchairs. I was wondering if you had considered putting a sign on it asking people not to move it. Also, when you make eye contact with other people in wheelchairs, is there any sort of instant connection or understanding you feel, or is there no more familiarity than you would have with strangers who are upright.

[It'sFunToRun]

I have gotten *really* good over the years of pulling my feet back so that the foot rests take any hits rather than my feet, particularly since I am unable to wear shoes. So it's just my sock feet that are up for the potential abuse.

Why can't you wear shoes?

[Curious]

This is turning out to be a very interesting education, and i have a couple of questions for people who use wheelchairs. I was wondering if you had considered putting a sign on it asking people not to move it. Also, when you make eye contact with other people in wheelchairs, is there any sort of instant connection or understanding you feel, or is there no more familiarity than you would have with strangers who are upright.

I've never really thought about putting a sign on my chair. I am not sure it'd work mostly because I think people who are rude enough to just move you aren't really paying enough attention to you to actually read a sign..if that makes sense. I might do one up and test it out though now that you've brought it up because it's something I've never thought of.

I don't see a whole lot of other people in wheelchairs because I don't go out a whole lot. I would say that there are some disabled people, both in wheelchairs and with other types of physical disabilities, that I have kind of had that instant connection with, but I wouldn't say it was universal.

I don't want to speak for ALL disabled people, but I think there tend to be 2 types of disabled people very (very) generally speaking. Some people are pretty comfortable in their skin and have accepted the cards that life has dealt them and their disability doesn't define them, so they tend to be a little more easy going where the disability is concerned (I am one of those people. It took me a few years to get to that point. It wasn't easy or instantaneous).

The other group for whatever reason hasn't quite accepted the cards yet and they are still angry, depressed, dealing with whatever emotions they are having about the unfairness of life. They are not comfortable with their difference and they may feel like they are defined by the disability more than anything else. (My mom, who was diagnosed with MS when I was a preteen, was more this type).

I suspect that the second group of people tend to outnumber the first mainly due to things like societal reactions and lack of good health care for many people in the US - including good pain management. Some of it is just the way a person is wired, as well. I think the people in this group are the ones that it's harder for people to connect with though and are probably the ones that other disabled people don't have the connection with.

These are my own theories that I have come to just from my own observations over the years that I have been disabled and my own journey to acceptance of my situation.

[It'sFunToRun]

While we are asking questions of people in wheelchairs (and it seems like about half of FJ is :lol: ): do you think of your wheelchair more like a chair, or more like a pair of pants?

[Curious]

Why can't you wear shoes?

I have a lot of nerve damage in my feet. They really prefer nothing on them, but going around barefoot is not an option and I wouldn't do that anyway. My left foot (the one that had 100% foot drop) does some interesting things sometimes (toes turn black, dark blue, bright red). If I wear shoes both feet swell to amazing proportions, which is incredibly painful. It can happen with socks, too, but I can tolerate certain kinds of socks for limited periods. When I was at the rehab hospital I had to have socks that had the non-stick thingys on the bottom so my husband got me some different disney character ones to cheer me up, so those are mostly what I wear now. People that know me will come and see what socks I'm wearing at my appts ;)

I couldn't find the exact ones I have, but this is the general style. I tend to stick with Disney most of the time, but I kind of like the wolf ones on this page. I may have to send that link to my husband for a stocking stuff idea for xmas ;)

https://www.google.com/search?q=adult+n ... l&tbm=shop

[Curious]

While we are asking questions of people in wheelchairs (and it seems like about half of FJ is :lol: ): do you think of your wheelchair more like a chair, or more like a pair of pants?

I think I understand what you are asking, so if I am using it I consider it an extension of my body. I guess I would consider it more like legs if i had to really call it something specific.

Your relationship with the chair (or mine anyway...I guess it would depend on the specific disability to a certain extent) is not really like it is with clothing. For me, because my main issue is spinal anything that effects the chair impacts me. If the chair goes over a bump, it hurts. If someone suddenly jerks the chair and I'm not ready for it, it hurts. When I'm at the theater and someone uses the wheels for a foot rest it hurts because they are jostling me around.

Whereas, if someone touches my clothing chances are it's not going to impact me the same way.

If I'm not in the chair, it's just a chair. I don't have any kind of emotional attachment to it or anything like that.

[It'sFunToRun]

I think I understand what you are asking, so if I am using it I consider it an extension of my body. I guess I would consider it more like legs if i had to really call it something specific.

Your relationship with the chair (or mine anyway...I guess it would depend on the specific disability to a certain extent) is not really like it is with clothing. For me, because my main issue is spinal anything that effects the chair impacts me. If the chair goes over a bump, it hurts. If someone suddenly jerks the chair and I'm not ready for it, it hurts. When I'm at the theater and someone uses the wheels for a foot rest it hurts because they are jostling me around.

Whereas, if someone touches my clothing chances are it's not going to impact me the same way.

If I'm not in the chair, it's just a chair. I don't have any kind of emotional attachment to it or anything like that.

No, I meant if you get up and go into a different room, and you come back and someone is sitting in your wheelchair, would you be mad? Because if it were a chair, then it would be okay as long as they get up when you come back, but if it's a pair of pants that you left there and then you come back and someone is wearing them, then they need a good talking to. I realize that there is no way you could have understood what I meant from how I phrased that. Thanks for answering :D

[Curious]

No, I meant if you get up and go into a different room, and you come back and someone is sitting in your wheelchair, would you be mad? Because if it were a chair, then it would be okay as long as they get up when you come back, but if it's a pair of pants that you left there and then you come back and someone is wearing them, then they need a good talking to. I realize that there is no way you could have understood what I meant from how I phrased that. Thanks for answering :D

Oh I see. No, if I would leave the chair for some reason I don't care if someone sits in it as long as they get up when I return. I have no emotional attachment to it in that way or anything. My husband often sits in it when I'm getting dental work done or my hair done (something that requires me to be in another chair). I realize my husband doing something is different than a friend/acquaintance etc, but just as an example.

I have had friends that were curious about it and would jump into it the second I leave it. I'm fine with that. It's just a chair unless I'm in it :)

[Coconut Flan]

Those are adorable socks. I may have to keep those in mind.

I'm pretty direct with people in public. I sharply say stop that or take your hands off me/my cane/my chair in an authoritative voice. Thankfully I haven't needed a chair in several years.

I don't mind offers of help. I much prefer it to the few people who have taken things out of my hands. Some of the stores where I shop frequently simply ask if I need help today when I get inside the door. That, for me, is great as I can yes I have a lot of shopping to do or I'll be fine I only need a couple of things. I have asked people if it would bother them if I asked if they needed help. It's a little less direct. So much of it is in attitude. Angry help just to get you out of the way is sometimes worse than no help.

[Marianne]

This is turning out to be a very interesting education, and i have a couple of questions for people who use wheelchairs. I was wondering if you had considered putting a sign on it asking people not to move it. Also, when you make eye contact with other people in wheelchairs, is there any sort of instant connection or understanding you feel, or is there no more familiarity than you would have with strangers who are upright.

A friend have a sign like this. I have not, but on the dog there is "I'm a therapy dog, please don't touch me" because people want to touch her when she's helping me.

Nop, there's really nothing with other people in weelchair, for me. There's a connection, btw, with people who have a therapy dog, we often stop and talk about them :D

When I was in high school, I often give my weelchair to my friends because the love to play with it. It's just a chair, for me, I just dislike when people touch it when I'm inside. Outside... I don't care.

[twinmama]

A sign on the chair might be a good idea. Kind of different, but our kids were very premature and when they left the NICU finally we were given signs for their strollers that said "Please wash your hands before touching mine." I could not tell you the number of people who commented on how awesome the signs were. And not a single person ever touched either of my kids. The sign was just off putting enough to stop the lunatics with no personal boundaries, but not mean or bitchy to make people think we were nuts.

[Grimalkin]

Perhaps we could invent some sort of electric shock mechanism for chairs. Nothing really severe at first because accidents happen but like an invisible fence dog shock that Increases severity the longer you handle it. You control it with a button of course.

[happy atheist]

Perhaps we could invent some sort of electric shock mechanism for chairs. Nothing really severe at first because accidents happen but like an invisible fence dog shock that Increases severity the longer you handle it. You control it with a button of course.

My wheelchair-bound friend would love the fuck out of that. Unfortunately I think she'd use it on her husband occasionally if he was annoying her. :shifty-kitty:

[Grimalkin]

My wheelchair-bound friend would love the fuck out of that. Unfortunately I think she'd use it on her husband occasionally if he was annoying her. :shifty-kitty:

We could create different degrees of shocks. She can use the mild one just for laughs, and crank it up when she means business!

[thoughtful]

That clip was great! I love that you have videos for every situation, thoughtful :)

Glad you liked it, and weren't thinking "not another old movie reference!"

I sometimes think, if there was a drinking game for me, it would involve taking a shot every time I turn whatever the subject is back to old movies, dogs, or song parodies. :D

[RosyDaisy]

Thank you for your thoughtful contribution to this discussion! :D

Whatever, but I believe I have you beat on the thoughtful discussion part. You are completely ignoring what has been said here. You can't stand and are disgusted by mentally challenged people, and believe they are a burden.

Furthermore, you are deliberately finding ways around the rules because you don't believe in being politically correct. This isn't a matter of political correctness. The fact that you don't get that is astounding. You have insulted people here who are parents, relatives, and friends of mentally challenged and disabled children and people. You are an ignorant narcissistic bitch and a bigot.

So, there. More thoughtful discussion from a person who is disabled, the aunt of an autistic boy, and cousin to a mentally challenged person. I assure they have contributed more to society than you have or ever will.

Oh, and you are a disgusting sick mother fucking monster!

[It'sFunToRun]

Whatever, but I believe I have you beat on the thoughtful discussion part. You are completely ignoring what has been said here. You can't stand and are disgusted by mentally challenged people, and believe they are a burden.

Furthermore, you are deliberately finding ways around the rules because you don't believe in being politically correct. This isn't a matter of political correctness. The fact that you don't get that is astounding. You have insulted people here who are parents, relatives, and friends of mentally challenged and disabled children and people. You are an ignorant narcissistic bitch and a bigot.

So, there. More thoughtful discussion from a person who is disabled, the aunt of an autistic boy, and cousin to a mentally challenged person. I assure they have contributed more to society than you have or ever will.

Oh, and you are a disgusting sick mother fucking monster!

I don't see anything useful in what you just said, just a bunch of whining and name calling, some of which is pretty funny (for instance, I have never had sex with my mother). Luckily, I find dirty talk to be very sexy, so your comment is helpful, just not in a way you would have anticipated :lol:

[bea]

The ignore function can often be useful. When someone has demonstrated that they're just in the thread to be an asshole and not to contribute to the discussion, ignore is usually the best bet.

Trolls like attention. The more you respond, the happier they are. Put the trolls on ignore, continue with the conversation without them.

[Burris]

My husband has a genetic disorder.

I don't.

My husband has spent most of his life trying to make the world a better place. He works -- and even if he didn't, that would make him no worse than the many able bodied people who have difficulty finding or keeping jobs.

I, on the other hand...if karma exists, it would give me a life 10 000 years long just to undo the damage.

If Dawkins were to have had his way about 40 years ago, he would have counseled for the termination of the wrong fetus.

Negative eugenics is junk even now, more than a century after the idea first appeared: The existing tests can give false readings. The existing tests can't determine character. They van sort of, dometimes, check for anomalies.

And besides that, who among Dawkins' brave new supermen would want the crappy menial jobs slower people take? He starts by talking about DS, but that is not where he would stop if he had his way. And just how many classes of people must be eliminatded in utero for the common good?

(Because if science ever finds a way to test for assholes, Homo Sapiens Dawkins would end up extinct.)

[Burris]

What makes a human a human: his body or his mind?

His DNA. But even if a child were born with DNA so scrambled as to have more in common with some other animal, that's still not a good reason to warrant his destruction.

in the year 3,000 some mad scientist transplants a carrot's brain into a human's body (I was going to pick a slug or fly or something but even they manage to feed themselves), is the resulting creature human? What rights does it deserve and why?

If somebody created a human-carrot hybrid, it would still have human rights. The reason: Because basic rights have to be unbiased and universal to any person or thing with sufficiently human DNA as to be recognized as having specifically human traits -- and what those would be in a hybrid that extreme are hard to determine.

To create a legal bias against some humans such that they no longer have HUMAN rights would debase the entire concept of "inalienable" to the point where whole groups could be disqualified from seeking legal redress for wrongs done against a race or gender or IQ strata or sexual orientation or some other thing.

No longer being human, they could not bring cases to court concerning crimes against themselves individually or collectively. The most a torturer could be accused of would be some class of animal abuse.

Now for a more realistic scenario: You're disfigured in an accident severely enough that people either look away or stare at your scars. Do you kill yourself to spare others the sight of your ravaged face?

[It'sFunToRun]

His DNA. But even if a child were born with DNA so scrambled as to have more in common with some other animal, that's still not a good reason to warrant his destruction.

So if a woman gave birth to a chimpanzee, then that chimpanzee should be given rights as a human? Why does coming out of a human's womb make an animal so special? If you had a beloved dog who got hit by a car and became incompetent, unable to eat by itself and unresponsive, would you have it put down? What would be the more ethical thing to do?

If somebody created a human-carrot hybrid, it would still have human rights. The reason: Because basic rights have to be unbiased and universal to any person or thing with sufficiently human DNA as to be recognized as having specifically human traits -- and what those would be in a hybrid that extreme are hard to determine.

To create a legal bias against some humans such that they no longer have HUMAN rights would debase the entire concept of "inalienable" to the point where whole groups could be disqualified from seeking legal redress for wrongs done against a race or gender or IQ strata or sexual orientation or some other thing.

No longer being human, they could not bring cases to court concerning crimes against themselves individually or collectively. The most a torturer could be accused of would be some class of animal abuse.

Now for a more realistic scenario: You're disfigured in an accident severely enough that people either look away or stare at your scars. Do you kill yourself to spare others the sight of your ravaged face?

No, because my face is not me. The people who love me would still love me, and other people can look away. I wouldn't get mad when they called me "ugly" and tell people that instead of saying "ugly" they must say "beautifully disabled" or some shit like that.

I really should make a living will thing saying that if I become like Terri Schiavo, I want the tubes taken out. In that case the real me would have been destroyed.

[Maggie Mae]

I don't think it's fair to compare a physical disability that occurred during an accident to mental disabilities that are known about before birth. The two situations are completely different.

As for the question about what makes a person a person, I'd rather let the philosophers hash that one out. Or we could have the discussion, but I don't want to be called a troll for expressing an alternate view.

[2xx1xy1JD]

As for the question about what makes a person a person, I'd rather let the philosophers hash that one out. Or we could have the discussion, but I don't want to be called a troll for expressing an alternate view.

I'd rather that the conversation not happen at all (in general, not just here). IMHO, there's a huge danger in deciding that someone's not really human.

Human DNA? Not a parasite (ie. physical existence depends entirely on another human being, possibly to their detriment)? Brain stem activity? Congratulations, you are a living person with human rights.

Of course, there are debates around end-of-life treatment. To me, though, the key issue is whether treatment would achieve anything or just cause pain without really changing the outcome. It's not about whether someone is worthy of treatment or care.