Bates Updates - Part 2

[Pretzel]

Well, I'll be damned. :pink-shock:

[singsingsing]

Yes! That was one of my 2015 predictions! (Well, it was that one of the Bateses would do something not previously 'ok' like wear jeans).

I can't say I'm surprised, though. I'm not sure I'd say it indicates she's going fundie lite given who her father-in-law is, but she's been dressing so close to the 'approved' line for so long, even in the formal pictures Kelly would post on her blog. I figured if she wasn't wearing jeans already she'd probably start when she moved to Florida, especially given her sisters-in-law do and she seems to enjoy their company a lot.

[nelliebelle1197]

It is not an indication of anything other than the fact that th Webster family can't be called out for what they are and still get elected.

[Pretzel]

It is not an indication of anything other than the fact that the Webster family can't be called out for what they are and still get elected.

I agree, partially. At the same time it's a sign that Alyssa is finally having some personal freedom, making decisions for herself (even if they are tiny in the context of the big picture) and enjoying a degree of individuality which she hasn't had before, even though individuality is a much more promoted concept in the Bateses' home, than say in the Maxwells' or in the Duggars'.

There are two sides to this,what it means in the big picture of conservatives and fundamentalists trying to impose their (sometimes dangerous) beliefs on the entire population while looking harmless and on the other hand, the freedom and self-determination it means for the individual.

Btw, I see nothing wrong with Alyssa and John having a small janitorial business. Good for them to have some additional income and they can work together as a couple. In case the political gravy train of John's father will pass one day, they have their own business to fall back on. If John's a business man, he can bring up his own company.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Why is it "Oh poor Erin" over some miscarriages but ZooZoo got crucified when she was carrying her dead baby inside herself for months? The Bates are cleaner and prettier than the Andersons but they are not any different. If anything, ZooZoo feeds and educates her kids better and PeePee is upfront about all the hate, which actually puts them a step above the Bates on the Evil Fundie scale. And I don't see PeePee allowing his girls to travel with a molester a la Gil Bates.

It is amazing how fake sweetness and a pretty face fools people.

Its cause Zsu chose the lifestyle even though she was raised in a normal household, changed her beliefs to match PP, and already has a whole bunch of kids that she beats.

Erin was raised fundie and its all she has ever known, she is young and has no kids, and just seems so sweet. She isnt proudly saying she hates gay people or saying she is going to beat her kid. No doubt, she does have hateful views, but she doesnt really own her views yet cause she didnt decide them for herself. She isnt Gil and Kelly sending their daughters off to a child molester...she was that kid they sent off.

I feel sympathetic towards the fundie kids, and young adults who have just got out into the world cause its not their fault. Especially the girls cause they are treated like shit and are worthless to their culture other than as baby factories. Maybe Erin will be so happy when she finally meets her baby that she could never dream of hitting them...and I can guarantee she will not have anywhere near as many kids as her parents. The lifestyle is unsustainable and loads of fundie kids grow up to be less conservative than their parents-so I dont think we can write them off as being as bad as Zsu, their parents and any other grown fundies until theyve been out long enough that they know who they are.

[HereticHick]

Those aren't jeans - they're, um... tube skirts. For each leg.

Twice as holy!

I just looked at Alyssa's [PUBLIC] Instagram page--there is another pic of her at Pentagon City Mall in the cute black/white dress she wore yesterday for her FatherinLaw's swearing in [and failed coup against the Speaker, &n subsequent booting off the Rules committee. :lol: ]--and its shorter than knee length. Hussy! :lol:

She's wearing tights, though.

PS Before I get screeched at, again, for being a Bates-leg-humper, here's my seemingly now-required caveat: Yes-I-Know-the-Bates-Are-Terrible-People-And-Should-Not-Ever-Ever-Ever-Being-Complimented-Or-Discussed-And-I-Am-A-Terrible-Person-Because-I-Don't-Spend-Every-Waking-Moment-Hating-Them.

Can I abbreviate that, in a PBUH sort of way?

[nelliebelle1197]

Its cause Zsu chose the lifestyle even though she was raised in a normal household, changed her beliefs to match PP, and already has a whole bunch of kids that she beats.

Erin was raised fundie and its all she has ever known, she is young and has no kids, and just seems so sweet. She isnt proudly saying she hates gay people or saying she is going to beat her kid. No doubt, she does have hateful views, but she doesnt really own her views yet cause she didnt decide them for herself. She isnt Gil and Kelly sending their daughters off to a child molester...she was that kid they sent off.

I feel sympathetic towards the fundie kids, and young adults who have just got out into the world cause its not their fault. Especially the girls cause they are treated like shit and are worthless to their culture other than as baby factories. Maybe Erin will be so happy when she finally meets her baby that she could never dream of hitting them...and I can guarantee she will not have anywhere near as many kids as her parents. The lifestyle is unsustainable and loads of fundie kids grow up to be less conservative than their parents-so I dont think we can write them off as being as bad as Zsu, their parents and any other grown fundies until theyve been out long enough that they know who they are.

Good points. True that the Duggar or Bats matriarchs would not be getting much sympathy.

[formergothardite]

ATI has started allowing pants on women. There was some drama about 8-9 years ago because girls at the training centers were wearing pants but the Institute was photoshopping skirts on them for the newsletters so that it wouldn't make the stricter members mad. My parents are friends with some ATI members who are strict like the Duggars and Bates and complained about the Institute "lowering" the standards of dress for girls. :roll:

I'm sure that Gil and Kelly would rather their daughters stay dresses/skirts only and probably would not allow the girls at home to dress that way, but I doubt they would publically criticize Alyssa for wearing pants. I don't think Jim Bob and Michelle would say anything(at least publically) if one of their married daughters started wearing pants and I won't be surprised in one of them does.

[HereticHick]

Now that the Bates and Duggars both have tv shows on competing networks, do you think they will appear on each others episodes in the future? If so, will that require special contracts between TLC and UP?

Its not unusual to have "crossover" between shows on the same network (for example, the "Say Yes to the Dress"--"19 Kids and Counting" combo) but it is unusual to see it between networks.

[ariel9]

Isn't there a health risk of carrying a dead baby inside your body for months?

As for Alyssa the reason why her wearing pants is a good thing and a step away is because there are a set of beliefs that go into skirt wearing. She essentially thought for herself and about how she felt instead of taking everyone's else's word that jeans are evil.

[Georgiana]

Re: Zsu vs Erin

To me, the reason I crucified Zsu over her last pregnancy is that she has spent YEARS telling me and others how to live our lives, what kind of medical care was "acceptable", and how we were terrible people who were showing our bodies to "perverts" if we didn't listen.

The reaction I had wasn't from the situation, it was from the hypocrisy of it all. The fact that Zsu has spent years and possibly profited from (in terms of increased visibility and followers) spewing hateful drivel, which she then tried to pretend didn't happen when she suddenly needed care herself.

Erin has said very little on what her own views are. We know what Kelly's are and we can surmise what Erin believes, but there is also a chance that Erin quietly disagrees with her family. As someone who has significant theological differences with her family, I am not willing to drag someone over the coals for their parents' beliefs.

If Erin ever starts posting the garbage Zsu posts, I think that would definitely change.

[jerkit]

Well I'll be damned.

[formergothardite]

Isn't there a health risk of carrying a dead baby inside your body for months?

As for Alyssa the reason why her wearing pants is a good thing and a step away is because there are a set of beliefs that go into skirt wearing. She essentially thought for herself and about how she felt instead of taking everyone's else's word that jeans are evil.

I would believe it was all her thinking about it and coming to the realization that she doesn't believe pants are a sin if her inlaws didn't dress that way. She has been taught to follow her husband's lead so if her husband says that it is okay for her to wear pants then it is okay. She probably really wanted to wear pants and jumped at the first chance, but I imagine that if her husband did not believe it was okay she would not wear them. It could be that her and her husband will become some of the more "liberal" ATI members or eventually become more liberal all together, but I imagine there is a lot of pressure on them from both families to stay in the lifestyle.

[nelliebelle1197]

Isn't there a health risk of carrying a dead baby inside your body for months?

As for Alyssa the reason why her wearing pants is a good thing and a step away is because there are a set of beliefs that go into skirt wearing. She essentially thought for herself and about how she felt instead of taking everyone's else's word that jeans are evil.

And it is just as likely she got permission from her husband before she bought those jeans. FormerGothardite noted above there is a Gothard segment that is not skirts only.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Marci Dauer is a good example. She's friends with everyone in ATI and recently went to the Duggar weddings and mission trip. She wears shorts. But guess what, she also belongs to a facebook group called biblical constitutionalism which believes that all laws should be replaced by biblical laws. Michelle Bachman is more dangerous than Michelle Duggar.

[NachosFlandersStyle]

ATI has started allowing pants on women. There was some drama about 8-9 years ago because girls at the training centers were wearing pants but the Institute was photoshopping skirts on them for the newsletters so that it wouldn't make the stricter members mad. My parents are friends with some ATI members who are strict like the Duggars and Bates and complained about the Institute "lowering" the standards of dress for girls. :roll:

I'm sure that Gil and Kelly would rather their daughters stay dresses/skirts only and probably would not allow the girls at home to dress that way, but I doubt they would publically criticize Alyssa for wearing pants. I don't think Jim Bob and Michelle would say anything(at least publically) if one of their married daughters started wearing pants and I won't be surprised in one of them does.

LOL what? Are those newsletters online?

[NachosFlandersStyle]

Marci Dauer is a good example. She's friends with everyone in ATI and recently went to the Duggar weddings and mission trip. She wears shorts. But guess what, she also belongs to a facebook group called biblical constitutionalism which believes that all laws should be replaced by biblical laws. Michelle Bachman is more dangerous than Michelle Duggar.

Precisely. The ultra-strict skirts-only types may be the most visible members of the fundie universe, but there aren't actually very many of them-- certainly not enough to be a major political force. The real danger is the millions of shorts-wearing, movie-going, college-attending folks who hold all the same wacky ideas. Misogyny and bigotry and ignorance are no different when the people peddling them are wearing jeans.

[quiversR4hunting]

Precisely. The ultra-strict skirts-only types may be the most visible members of the fundie universe, but there aren't actually very many of them-- certainly not enough to be a major political force. The real danger is the millions of shorts-wearing, movie-going, college-attending folks who hold all the same wacky ideas. Misogyny and bigotry and ignorance are no different when the people peddling them are wearing jeans.

Kind of like Congress!

[quiversR4hunting]

Twice as holy!

I just looked at Alyssa's [PUBLIC] Instagram page--there is another pic of her at Pentagon City Mall in the cute black/white dress she wore yesterday for her FatherinLaw's swearing in [and failed coup against the Speaker, &n subsequent booting off the Rules committee. :lol: ]--and its shorter than knee length. Hussy! :lol:

She's wearing tights, though.

PS Before I get screeched at, again, for being a Bates-leg-humper, here's my seemingly now-required caveat: Yes-I-Know-the-Bates-Are-Terrible-People-And-Should-Not-Ever-Ever-Ever-Being-Complimented-Or-Discussed-And-I-Am-A-Terrible-Person-Because-I-Don't-Spend-Every-Waking-Moment-Hating-Them.

Can I abbreviate that, in a PBUH sort of way?

I laughed a bit when I read he got booted off the rules committee. He wasn't the only one punished- several that voted for him are being demoted too. :nenner: this could be interesting to watch- more in fighting with the gop. :popcorn2:

[Mama Mia]

Why is it "Oh poor Erin" over some miscarriages but ZooZoo got crucified when she was carrying her dead baby inside herself for months? The Bates are cleaner and prettier than the Andersons but they are not any different. If anything, ZooZoo feeds and educates her kids better and PeePee is upfront about all the hate, which actually puts them a step above the Bates on the Evil Fundie scale. And I don't see PeePee allowing his girls to travel with a molester a la Gil Bates.

It is amazing how fake sweetness and a pretty face fools people.

To me, there are a couple of differences here:

I thought the way Zsu was crucified over the miscarriage was absolutely awful. It was a clear case of a " well SHE'S - fucking monster to everyone, and a hypocrite about needing help, so of course it's okay to be a monster back!" I don't get that whole line of thought. Especially about something which she clearly had no control over and people just tore apart every single tiny step she took. Even when posters who had actually experienced the exact same situation said she seemed to be following exactly what should have been done.

And, like most things here, I don't think it's always the same posters who take position "a" on one issue, but then are called out for "everyone" taking position "b" on a similar issue.

But in my opinion, the primary difference in treatment is that while their are similarities in the Bates and Anderson's belief systems -- there is a huge, gigantic difference in the degree of hate in those beliefs.

Whatever the issue, no matter how misguided I think they are, there is a genuine difference in extremity and aims.

I think the Bates, Duggar's etc. genuinely believe that they are trying to help people to live a life that will save them from hell and send them to heaven, and to be content while on earth.

I think the Anderson's really, really want to see people miserable on earth and to take an active hand in sending them to hell.

Just take the issue of homosexuality.

The Bates are probably about where a large portion of the country was not too recently -- they think that marriage is between a man and a woman, if they have extended family/co-workers who are gay they are likely polite but distant, and it would cause a huge family conflict if one of their kids came out as gay. And they really, really want to turn back the clock to where this wasn't part of the general culture.

The Anderson's actually, literally, preach that homosexuals should be killed.

There is a huge difference there.

[formergothardite]

LOL what? Are those newsletters online?

I doubt it. Bill doesn't like having lots of stuff public and online where non-cult members can access it. My parents got the newsletter for years after they quit ATI.

[Bazinga]

Regarding Alyssa wearing pants- what is most frustrating is I wish Alyssa would just own her life. I've noticed that her instagram still seems to be carefully crafted to show the world what her parents are selling. If your wearing jeans, watching TV, piercing ears, you do that proud. Otherwise you just look hypocritical. Maybe someday soon she will feel comfortable enough to actually be herself for the public.

Though a part of me is curious if Kelley and Gil even knew she was wearing pants? Makes me wonder if now she's like "Oh S***! My dumb arse FIL needs to take down that picture before my parents see." :lol:

[nelliebelle1197]

Regarding Alyssa wearing pants- what is most frustrating is I wish Alyssa would just own her life. I've noticed that her instagram still seems to be carefully crafted to show the world what her parents are selling. If your wearing jeans, watching TV, piercing ears, you do that proud. Otherwise you just look hypocritical. Maybe someday soon she will feel comfortable enough to actually be herself for the public.

Though a part of me is curious if Kelley and Gil even knew she was wearing pants? Makes me wonder if now she's like "Oh S***! My dumb arse FIL needs to take down that picture before my parents see." :lol:

John's family is ATI as well. As stated above they are liberal ATI who wear pants. The Bates knew Alyssa was marrying into a family with that standard. I doubt they are surprised. They know the Websters and approved the match.

How do you know she is not being herself?

As to the pierced ear thing, how does anyone know why she now pierced them? Gil and Kelly may not have allowed it until the kids were over 18 or maybe they just couldn't afford the $50 per girl it would cost and did not want to spend money on earrings. I am an old school punk girl and I would let my kids dye their hair purple and green (in fact, I have tried to get them to buy the wash out colors for fun but at 4 and 7 they have no interest :roll: ) before I'd let them pierce something before they were adults. I don't agree with piercings for kids. I think that is a choice an adult should make, not a parent for a child. Who knows why Alyssa did it now; she is only 19.

[Bazinga]

John's family is ATI as well. As stated above they are liberal ATI who wear pants. The Bates knew Alyssa was marrying into a family with that standard. I doubt they are surprised. How do you know she is not being herself?

Well I guess if you want to nitpick- I have absolutely no proof she isn't being herself. BUT- she is obviously wearing pants, yet every single picture of her is in a dress/skirt, clearly she isn't comfortable sharing that part of her self with the public. As I am sure she will receive some backlash from hard core fans/fundies/just plain anyone who wants to cause drama. Though you may rebuttal, well maybe she just hasn't had the opportunity to do so. The only person who knows if she is being herself is Alyssa, but I can still speculate.

[nelliebelle1197]

Well I guess if you want to nitpick- I have absolutely no proof she isn't being herself. BUT- she is obviously wearing pants, yet every single picture of her is in a dress/skirt, clearly she isn't comfortable sharing that part of her self with the public. As I am sure she will receive some backlash from hard core fans/fundies/just plain anyone who wants to cause drama. Though you may rebuttal, well maybe she just hasn't had the opportunity to do so. The only person who knows if she is being herself is Alyssa, but I can still speculate.

Of course you can speculate but in what universe is asking for evidence for strong declarative statements nitpicking? Your statement about opportunity to find herself is exactly right.

I don't think her still wearing skirts all the time is proof she is uncomfortable in pants in public. She still may prefer her skirts or she may not be able to afford more than one pair of jeans. Or the jeans may have simply been a practical choice because she was riding in the back of a truck in a parade. There is a whole 'nother modesty standard that allows pants when it is immodest to be skirted (see Olivia from Fresh Modesty). Of course there is.

I hope it is not my other theory- she is still skirts only and the Websters pressured her to look a certain way for the campaign.