Sparkling Lauren, a super special sparkling surrogacy and a "gayby"

[tropaka]

looks like some mix the two "styles" (i.e. AP and NCP)

livingpeacefullywithchildren.com/tag/non-coercive-parenting/

[alba]

Just playing devil's advocate here... if Lauren is presenting this to the girls as growing a baby for Ben and Agust, it's their baby but she's just helping out... I wonder if they'll just take that at face value (at least until they are older) and not mind it as much as we think they might? I wonder if there's any research out there from other surrogate families where the surrogate had older kids already... is there any lingering sadness from those older siblings about their mom giving a baby away?

Clearly in this case there are a couple of extra factors... having lost Elijah, and also just that Iceland isn't just a suburb or short drive away from where they live... but I guess I'm curious about whether the kids might just not be as disturbed by this.

This might be the case for the youngest. Delaney was only two when Elijah died, so she won't remember her mother being pregnant. The older girls will associate Lauren's pregnancies with the addition of a sibling. I wouldn't be surprised if Delaney didn't even remember Elijah, so she's less likely to have the same associations when Lauren gives away a boy. I worry about Aisha and Brioni, though.

Lauren, though? This will kill her. Remember when Elijah died and she posted about how her breasts hurt and leaked and it was a physical reminder of the fact that he wasn't there to nurse? Well, isn't that going to happen with her breasts when she gives away this next baby?

[happy atheist]

Sadly I have neither a girlfriend nor sufficient incentives (-cough cough-) for Lauren to sparkle me up a gayby of my very own. I do have a sort of fuchsia shirt and a nose stud though. Probably not enough.

I bet pube dreads would be sparkly enough to impress Lauren.

[kunoichi66]

I bet pube dreads would be sparkly enough to impress Lauren.

:pink-shock:

[ViolaSebastian]

Or she could weave some red beads into her pubes... :ew:

[happy atheist]

Or she could weave some red beads into her pubes... :ew:

Red would be super-authentic, but obviously rainbow would be better.

[August]

I don't disagree, August. I was speaking of AP versus non-AP, not versus TCS in my comparison. TCS is Taking Children Seriously, which is what Lauren subscribes to. AP says children outrgrow challenges but parents need to work with them to help them be successful. TCS says children outgrow challenges and thus parents have no responsiblity to parent, and that if parents do attempt to parent they will suppress the child's spirit and the child might not outrgrow the behaviors afterall.

TCS is crazy, CRAZY stuff. It has another name to mask it as well now. I saw very recently Lauren was actually using either TCS in her about me stuff or the other name. I cannot remember the other name right now. But, it's just repackaged TCS. I think it's non-coersive parenting (NCP) or something like that. It's just TCS by a new name because TCS has a bad reputation as giving permission and a load of guilt that you cannot parent your children, or you will inhibit their ability to be free spirits and find their own way. Lauren is NOT AP. She appears AP where TCS/NCP intersects with AP, which is in infant care alone. However, she is not at all AP, but is infact TCS/NCP.

AP is not extreme enough for her. If we're being really pedantic about labels, she's a radical unschooler, which does draw a lot on TCS, but incorporates other crazy, too. IMO, TCS lets you negotiate with the child (they're all about NVC), whilst RU would view negotiation as coercive.

TCS (taking children seriously) is also called CL or CP, consensual parenting, IIRC. It's based on the premise that children are exactly the same as adults in all ways, except a bit shorter and with less body hair. You therefore treat them as equals in all things, which leads to interesting situations, like not changing the diaper of a baby who doesn't like his diaper changed, and not having any more children because your six year old doesn't want a sibling. (no, really, these are real examples)

To that end, our children own their own bodies. We don’t force diaper changes, teeth brushing, baths (although the only problem our children have ever had with baths or showers is getting out), nail cutting, hair brushing, or anything else. This doesn’t mean that we have the dirty children on the block , walking around with uncombed hair, dirty teeth and diapers sagging with excrement. It just means that we talk to our children about why we believe it is implortant to do various aspects of personal hygiene. We give choices to honor their individuality. We are open and direct. We model personal hygiene and let them do as much as they can on their own.

[August]

Red would be super-authentic, but obviously rainbow would be better.

Well, really, a bead made of dried placenta, one from each child, would be most authentic.

[ViolaSebastian]

August, I have to tell you by heart jumps every time you post on this thread--I always have a 'derr' moment and think that the Icelandic parent with a similar name has stopped by to pay us a visit. :shrug:

I find myself wondering about the 'what ifs...' of this monumentally stupid adventure. The one I'm stuck on right now is what happens if Sparkles ends up having a difficult labor and needs to go to the hospital? Wouldn't they have to own up to the fact that they were engaged in an illegal (In Iceland) activity? What happens with the birth certificate and citizenship and all that after that? One things for certain, I wouldn't want to be an attorney involved in this mess... :hand:

[August]

Sorry, Viola!

I suspect the cover story in Iceland is that she had a one night stand with him during a vacation and his husband has graciously agreed to have the child in his household. Ironically, because it's traditional, not gestational surrogacy, a DNA test would confirm it's her baby.

I found some more amusing/interesting reading

http://learninghappens.wordpress.com/20 ... -learning/

http://sandradodd.com/misconceptions

Anyway...

Pam and I have very often drawn the line when people come to define unschooling to us, or say "I thought unschooling meant..." From time to time one or the other of us has objected to these ideas:

"Child-led learning"

"Non-coercive parenting"

As "NCP," the latter is the name of a very narrow definition and I don't want to be linked with that movement (TCP, Taking Children Seriously). The former suggests that parents should be passive and wait. Unschooling needs activity and motion!

So then people will say "So you're coercive?" Seeing the world in black and white is a problem. We're not dealing in opposites. We're dealing in principles.

Some people make rules and say an unschooling parent MUST always or never do this or that. It's better to find the principles behind what you believe and make your best decision in each instance based on a principle.

If anyone read that and is baffled, these might help:

http://sandradodd.com/nest

http://sandradodd.com/rules

It's not all all my writing. It's part of my packrat collection of some of the best things written to help people understand how wonderful their life with their children can be!

http://eligerzon.com/blog/2012/05/radic ... tive-post/

I did speak at an unschooling conference (with mostly radical unschoolers) and tried to make the point that sometimes it is best for parents to push their child to do things. One mother insisted she’d never force her son to do anything. I said, “What if you knew he was doing something that might get him killed?â€

She replied serenely, “Well, maybe that’s his destiny.â€

[ILoveJellybeans]

AP is not extreme enough for her. If we're being really pedantic about labels, she's a radical unschooler, which does draw a lot on TCS, but incorporates other crazy, too. IMO, TCS lets you negotiate with the child (they're all about NVC), whilst RU would view negotiation as coercive.

TCS (taking children seriously) is also called CL or CP, consensual parenting, IIRC. It's based on the premise that children are exactly the same as adults in all ways, except a bit shorter and with less body hair. You therefore treat them as equals in all things, which leads to interesting situations, like not changing the diaper of a baby who doesn't like his diaper changed, and not having any more children because your six year old doesn't want a sibling. (no, really, these are real examples)

Really? That is just lazy parenting. Sure, let your kid decide what to wear (as long as you aren't going anywhere there is a dress code, like not letting your kid dress as Superman to a wedding), or give them a choice about whether they want an apple or an orange as a snack, or letting them have the natural consequences of their actions, like if they cant get their kid to do their homework, the kid goes to school without homework and gets detention....but some things are non negotiable. Somehow I don't think that CPS would accept "but my child didn't want to take a bath, brush their hair and wear shoes" as a good excuse for neglect. There are some things that children do not get to decide on-teeth and hair get brushed, suitable clothes get worn, shoes are worn outside, you go to school/be homeschooled adequately, baths are taken and they go to the doctor and dentist and have whatever treatment that is necessary. These are things the law says you have to do, nomatter what, kids have to have parents/guardians for a reason, and if you are too much of a wimp to tell your kids "Go and brush your teeth so you don't get toothache, and no, you aren't allowed to wear that shirt because you spilled your dinner down it yesterday", you are being useless as a parent and not being responsible for your kids.

[flubber]

Really? That is just lazy parenting. Sure, let your kid decide what to wear (as long as you aren't going anywhere there is a dress code, like not letting your kid dress as Superman to a wedding), or give them a choice about whether they want an apple or an orange as a snack, or letting them have the natural consequences of their actions, like if they cant get their kid to do their homework, the kid goes to school without homework and gets detention....but some things are non negotiable. Somehow I don't think that CPS would accept "but my child didn't want to take a bath, brush their hair and wear shoes" as a good excuse for neglect. There are some things that children do not get to decide on-teeth and hair get brushed, suitable clothes get worn, shoes are worn outside, you go to school/be homeschooled adequately, baths are taken and they go to the doctor and dentist and have whatever treatment that is necessary. These are things the law says you have to do, nomatter what, kids have to have parents/guardians for a reason, and if you are too much of a wimp to tell your kids "Go and brush your teeth so you don't get toothache, and no, you aren't allowed to wear that shirt because you spilled your dinner down it yesterday", you are being useless as a parent and not being responsible for your kids.

To the bolded...Really?

And isn't it called 'un-parenting' :-)

I wonder if the pregnancy is why Manou seems to be absent from the girls life? And if it's caused an estrangement in the family which is also why she wasn't aware her family were no longer in China (after she booked via that route to see them).

I've been considering the ramifications of surrogacy (before this post) on my family and the baby involved (cause that's a big thing IMO). As a sufferer of terrible PND - maybe not as bad as Sparkles as I could still function - a biggy for me would be to have immediate access to mental health help and anti depressants. She is taking a massive risk if she hasn't thought of the effects this will have on her PND once the baby comes.

I don't have any comment on the surrogacy as I am at a total loss for words.

[Mama Mia]

AP is not extreme enough for her. If we're being really pedantic about labels, she's a radical unschooler, which does draw a lot on TCS, but incorporates other crazy, too. IMO, TCS lets you negotiate with the child (they're all about NVC), whilst RU would view negotiation as coercive.

TCS (taking children seriously) is also called CL or CP, consensual parenting, IIRC. It's based on the premise that children are exactly the same as adults in all ways, except a bit shorter and with less body hair. You therefore treat them as equals in all things, which leads to interesting situations, like not changing the diaper of a baby who doesn't like his diaper changed, and not having any more children because your six year old doesn't want a sibling. (no, really, these are real examples)

Wow. We have one kid who would have never, ever, ever have voluntarily showered, changed his clothes or brushed his teeth until he became interested in dating. Of course I'm assuming the absolute lack of hygiene would have put a real damper on his ability to ever attract someone who would nag him into performing any personal hygiene, so it would be a pretty vicious circle.

Out of my 15 children and grandchildren and close relatives who are past baby age, I think there are only 3 who would have done reasonably okay with something like this, but ONLY because they were the type of little girls who were just naturally very orderly, hyper-responsible, clean AND liked learning, so they would likely have managed okay at completely raising themselves. Except for their hair. Even with this super clean, capable type of girl, they all would have rat nests for hair if they had their own way about hair brushing. Also all three would likely have had nervous breakdowns trying to care for their younger siblings- because they are the types who would of been very WTF about the crazy ass neglectful adults around them and taken it on their pre-school selves to clean up toddlers.

On the other extreme At least a couple would have most definitely been dead if someone wasn't around to stop them from doing whatever impulsive thing popped into their head. What do these parents do if they have those type of kids?? Stand there while they are deciding to jump off the roof or make explosives at 6 and not say a word?

And extra WTF about babies in diapers! How on earth do you have a rational discussion with a toddler about diaper changing? I mean you can certainly talk about the reason you need to change it, to help them build words and concepts....but waiting until they are ready? For some little ones that could be literally DAYS! Aggghh ( or do they even do this with completely pre-verbal infants - and don't change the diaper if the baby fusses?)

Eta: i think the greatest thing reading FJ has done for me is to make me feel like I was a better parent than I thought. Whether it's either extreme of the controlling, physically abusive fundamentalists, or this kind of extreme neglect, I know I didn't do THAT bad. And it's especially crazy, to me, that these are actual philosophies of parenting that people choose,consciously to follow. I worked in social services for my career and saw a great deal of horrific abuse and endangerment and neglect -- but almost always due to ignorance, or being completely overwhelmed, or out of control rage where the parent snaps, or strung out junkies who have basically feral children because they can't be bothered, or inter-generational molestation where it seems the norm, .....not because they made a conscious choice to look for a philosophy that supports abuse or neglect. It kind of boggles my mind.

I think there is a very wide range in which reasonable parents can disagree on what is desirable, or even acceptable, parenting practices -- and those beliefs might change over time, or with different children -- but some of the extremes are just really, really far beyond that range.

[nausicaa]

On the other extreme At least a couple would have most definitely been dead if someone wasn't around to stop them from doing whatever impulsive thing popped into their head. What do these parents do if they have those type of kids?? Stand there while they are deciding to jump off the roof or make explosives at 6 and not say a word?

I was also wondering what these parents do when their toddlers want to play in the street or jump in a pool before they can swim. My eighteen month old nephew is obsessed with the road and the cars on it when he is playing outside, and if my SIL took this parenting approach, he literally would not make until dinnertime tonight.

And yeah, this does seem like a convenient technique for lazy parents, especially those who are somewhat educated with a middle class background who know how to throw out "theories" and "lifestyle beliefs."

[chaotic life]

It's been said before, Lauren went from one extreme to another. She was a diehard Ezzo parent, and had insane structure in her schooling. Then, she went down this rabbit trail of Radical unschooling and TCS philosophies. Yet, she has never stopped to just mother her children. Everything about her screams Narcissist so she likely requires some outside regiment to tell her HOW to parent. But, this extreme is, imo, actually worse than the Ezzo extreme in that it has given Lauren an excuse to be lazy and not bother to even try with her children now. When David was there, the girls were at least marginally cared for, because he did that, no matter what parenting ideas she was spouting off at any given point in time. Without him there, there is no safety net for her craziness.

Once her PND hits, there will be no one to parent those girls. When she went to Iceland the first time, she openly advertised for any stranger to watch her girls and claimed they self parented. I wonder if Alice agrees with that assessment after she had a break-down trying to manage Lauren's girls for her? More likely, Alice discovered that children that age are incapable of parenting themselves, these girls were grieving with their mother taking off on the other side of the world, and Alice cannot bring herself to let children go absolutely feral and neglected.

It is Lauren's feral children that is leading to conflict in community living situations now. Even those who DO parent in similar manners and philosophies to Lauren cannot deal with her parenting, because she does not parent. She just uses theories to justify her neglect.

[Firiel]

AP is not extreme enough for her. If we're being really pedantic about labels, she's a radical unschooler, which does draw a lot on TCS, but incorporates other crazy, too. IMO, TCS lets you negotiate with the child (they're all about NVC), whilst RU would view negotiation as coercive.

TCS (taking children seriously) is also called CL or CP, consensual parenting, IIRC. It's based on the premise that children are exactly the same as adults in all ways, except a bit shorter and with less body hair. You therefore treat them as equals in all things, which leads to interesting situations, like not changing the diaper of a baby who doesn't like his diaper changed, and not having any more children because your six year old doesn't want a sibling. (no, really, these are real examples)

Oh, hey 10-month old son. Yeah, I know you hate it when I change your diaper. But you'll probably get an infection if I don't which means that you could get really sick and possibly d- oh. You still just want to spread your poop around the walls? Well, that's cool too, I guess. :shock:

[Cheetah]

I wonder if the pregnancy is why Manou seems to be absent from the girls life? And if it's caused an estrangement in the family which is also why she wasn't aware her family were no longer in China (after she booked via that route to see them).

Manou = Lauren's mom? I missed this bit about her family in/ not in China... where did you see that?

[lilith]

Manou = Lauren's mom? I missed this bit about her family in/ not in China... where did you see that?

Her sister left China late last year (maybe early this year). They had already had a falling out at that point - Lauren claims it's cause her sister couldn't accept that she wasn't a traditional Christian anymore and didn't accept her lifestyle and parenting choices. So it seems her sister spoke up for her nieces and was cut out of their lives as a result

[August]

Somehow I don't think that CPS would accept "but my child didn't want to take a bath, brush their hair and wear shoes" as a good excuse for neglect.

That's why they're all really really concerned with what to do if CPS comes calling.

[Mama Mia]

That's why they're all really really concerned with what to do if CPS comes calling.

Most of the time CPS will put up with a very, very large amount of the kind of neglect that is primarily hygiene related, in my professional experience, and from a situation with relatives that I don't want to go into detail about. Although I guess that might vary by area.

[flubber]

Manou = Lauren's mom? I missed this bit about her family in/ not in China... where did you see that?

Yes her mum.

She posted on Twitter asking for accommodation/friends in Bejing as the family she had booked to go see were no longer there.

She also doesn't seem to have stopped and visited her other sister (docs in NSW somewhere) either - just driven past them.

[Idolatry]

Seriously, WTF is this? And isn't gayby really, really offensive? Are there no gay people in Australia that want apparently free surrogates.

[lilith]

Seriously, WTF is this? And isn't gayby really, really offensive? Are there no gay people in Australia that want apparently free surrogates.

Well if one was going to be insane enough to use Lauren as one's sparkling surrogate, her retreating to the other side of the world after birthing and handing over the baby would be ideal. You'd never get rid of her otherwise.

[August]

Most of the time CPS will put up with a very, very large amount of the kind of neglect that is primarily hygiene related, in my professional experience, and from a situation with relatives that I don't want to go into detail about. Although I guess that might vary by area.

Well, I doubt much of what they say or think has much basis in reality, since they think a three year old can understand what dental work will feel like.

[lilith]

Well, I doubt much of what they say or think has much basis in reality, since they think a three year old can understand what dental work will feel like.

As far as Lauren goes, DOCS will put up with a lot more neglect from her, who knows how to phrase it in terms of alternative parenting philosophies and what middle class shibboleths to drop when talking to a case worker, than they would from an underprivileged or drug addicted mother or a mother from an indigenous community, who generally don't know the right words to say to excuse neglect as an alternative lifestyle that they claim every right to consciously choose and can't negotiate the system with the skill that privileged Lauren can. It's an issue that really really pisses me off and that I see again and again. White, educated, middle class mothers start with white middle class case workers presuming that they must be good parents, while less privileged groups have to prove it, often by conforming to standards that are more about comfortable middle class norms than they are about good parenting.