Budgets of Botkin and other royal fundie weddings

[YPestis]

I remember seeing pictures of David Botkin's wedding pictures on the Botkin girls' website a while back. What instantly got me was how "on the budget" it was. They had hotdogs and hamburgers for the reception with food donated/cooked by church friends. Their wedding ceremony and reception was at the church. There was minimal wedding trappings such as wedding flowers, limos etc. The theme was "all american" country so the decor fit the theme, but it also coincidentally meant a very low budget.

I am currently planning a wedding myself and counting the cost of it all. Based on my experience, the Botkin's wedding must have been on the really cheap side, especially given the number of guests they had.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for wedding on the cheap. In fact, if I had my way, we'd elope. However, now that I have an idea of what is expected in a wedding, I'm surprised how frugal the weddings of some of these "fundie royalty" families are. Most seem to cut out the reception dinner----the biggest cost. Many do the reception venue at the church basement or simple meeting place. And the food and decoration seem more suited to a simple get together than what one would expect for a wedding.

Take Nathan and Melenie Maxwell's wedding. There was no wedding reception/dinner for most of the guests. Family that came into town for the wedding was instead invited to dinner at the Maxwell's house. The ceremony pictures I remember looking did not have DJ, typical wedding decorations, limo, flowers etc. Reception was at the church with drinks and some snacks. Rehearsal dinner was pizza and salad. The Botkins had paper utensils and offered hamburgers and hotdogs as main courses.

Is this part of their living frugally/no debt belief system? Or are these fundie families not as well off as we initially thought? What I mean is, a wedding is the highlight of these fundie girls' lives. To fundie families, it should be the highlight of their social year, right? All this hand wringing about courtships, sheltering children, quiverful etc centers on the marriage.

So, if it is financially feasible, shouldn't these fundie families make the weddings more of a show? I'm not talking about limos and expensively cut fresh flowers. I'm talking about a formal reception at a nice hotel lobby, formal dinner for all the guests, and nicer decor.

I hope I don't come off as snooty. I believe weddings should be personalized affairs and should look as fancy or as low key as you want. However, fundie families, especially the so-called royal fundie families, seem keen on selling their lifestyle. It seems their attempt at doing weddings on a small budget would make them look cheap, rather not humble. I don't think the average fundie family is going to appreciate that plastic plates and hamburgers were served at the reception instead of chicken marsala on china. It seems the budgetary decisions were made for more practical reasons than an example to their follower. Maybe I'm just reading too much into this. I'm probably overdosed on wedding planning myself, hence my nitpicks. However, I feel this is worth commenting on.

Comments? Agree? Disagree?

[Deleted12]

I bet almost all fundie weddings are on the cheap. It might even be considered tacky to have anything too fancy.

The reason I think this is because for a family like the Bates family, they're marrying off 19 kids. If each wedding costs $5000, then they're out 95K over a 20-year period.

I would be surprised if DBot's wedding was under $5000, between the venue and food for 200 people. I also suspect that it was cheaper looking than it actually was, unless they had hella volunteers. For example, either there were some really industrious flower-pickers, or they shelled out some cash.

[dawn]

My guess is that a reception with no alcohol and no music, where you have to watch your every word and constantly keep an eye on your 12 children in case they say or do something to embarrass you don't last long anyway, so why bother with dinner & expensive venues?

Besides, if most wedding receptions you go to consist of a long reception line with a piece of cake on a napkin at the end, hamburgers is a crazy splurge!

Many people don't mind paper plates at weddings.

[keeperrox]

Since they hold themselves to all other traditional male/female roles, I wouldn't be surprised if the bride's parents are expected to pay for the wedding.

[Deleted12]

We never did see photos from bBot's wedding, did we?

From the 2 that were leaked, there were NO paper plates at that one, but also they may have had a smaller crowd.

[Marian the Librarian]

Agreed: there was almost a total media blackout around BBot and Audri's wedding. Based on what A-S and E revealed on their blog, DBot's wedding was all about the way he wanted it - which, I suspect, was heavily influenced by Dad. The Seppi blog contains a wealth of Botkin info, including detailed notes from the men's mentoring webinars that Geoff held in 2010. Quote from the one on courtship: "Short engagement/betrothal commences. Most reformers agreed: make it short. What about the big production? You might want to pass on the helicopter, the limo, the camera crew, the blimp and get on with the mission."

(Here's the link: melodys-notes.blogspot.com/2010/02/mens-mentoring-session-6-courtship.html. And if you go to the Seppi blog and search "Botkin," there's lots more.)

OTOH, other fundie royalty weddings have been big productions - Peter and Kelly Bradrick's for example. It looked to me as if no expense was spared.

[Avalondaughter]

Etiquette states that brides and grooms don't "owe" their guests a fine meal, dancing, and a full bar. They only need to provide refreshments suitable for the hour of the wedding (cake and punch would be fine for an afternoon reception for example) so really they stayed within the dictates of wedding etiquette if they provided at least a cheap lunch for guests. What else will you do at a wedding with no dancing, no liquor, and food that can be consumed in the space of 15 minutes. By virtue of the fact that there is no entertainment or prolonged meals, what's the point of going fancy even if you had the money?

I do hope that the families who had no real reception provided SOMETHING for the guests though, even if it's just cake and punch. It's kind of rude not to.

[1004srs]

Most of the weddings I've been to (including mine) were small. Punch and cake is the norm. Guests don't expect a meal.

My wedding including the dress cost under $1000.

Some people believe that a wedding is one day. A special day,but only one. Why spend thousands of dollars or go into debt for one day? WOuldn't that money do better in a savings account or as a down payment on a house?

[bananacat]

I think a lot of fundies skip the reception because they can't drink or dance, so what would they do? It also delays the newlyweds from their honeymoon, and if they've been having hand sex for a few months and nothing else, they don't want to wait a second longer than they have to.

I am a big fan of cheap weddings because I think the whole wedding industry is a giant scam. If your fiance doesn't spend a fortune on a diamond ring, then he doesn't really love you that much. If you don't buy an expensive pure white gown then you're not pure. Diamond engagement rings aren't traditional and it all stems from an ad campaign that De Beers came up with to link the size of the diamond to how much you are loved. White wedding dresses have nothing to do with purity and everything to do with showing off that you can waste tons of money on a dress that you'll never wear again. I could go on and on, but most wedding "traditions" are really just status displays.

But I would expect fundies to feel the complete opposite of me because for fundie women, there's really not much else in life. It's really their only chance to have everything revolve around them instead of the other way around. I guess it just comes down to having so many kids that they can't afford fancy weddings for all of them.

[YPestis]

Most of the weddings I've been to (including mine) were small. Punch and cake is the norm. Guests don't expect a meal.

My wedding including the dress cost under $1000.

Some people believe that a wedding is one day. A special day,but only one. Why spend thousands of dollars or go into debt for one day? WOuldn't that money do better in a savings account or as a down payment on a house?

Well, this thread wasn't to debate the merits of a small wedding. As I stated, weddings are persona affairs and should follow the couples' taste. However, fundies make such a big deal of marriage that I'd expect it to be a pretty big deal. I expect a nice venue and nice decor and formal sit down meals given that some of these royal fundie families see weddings as (another) point of evangelizing. Look at Christopher Maxwell's wedding.....they spent it talking about death and what happens after you die instead of say, on the happy couple!

It just seems, since the Maxwells and the Botkins of the fundie circles are big on using weddings as platforms for their lifestyle, AND they've shown no compunction of showing their comfortable lifestyle.....why do they appear to make weddings such short and simple affairs? Is it because they believe having no/cheap reception is a sign of their humbleness? Or a sign of their actual financial situation?

Again, this isn't to discuss/debate the merits of budget vs lavish weddings. I was only wondering why even seemingly well off fundies are keen on avoiding a larger production. Maybe the upthread posters have it correct----why bother with a nice venue/reception if dancing, music and fun socialization between young people are banned? However, why did the Maxwells not do a dinner reception where they'd have a captive audience to listen to more of their talks about death and the glory of following their lifestyle.....

[Deleted03]

Etiquette states that brides and grooms don't "owe" their guests a fine meal, dancing, and a full bar. They only need to provide refreshments suitable for the hour of the wedding (cake and punch would be fine for an afternoon reception for example) so really they stayed within the dictates of wedding etiquette if they provided at least a cheap lunch for guests. What else will you do at a wedding with no dancing, no liquor, and food that can be consumed in the space of 15 minutes. By virtue of the fact that there is no entertainment or prolonged meals, what's the point of going fancy even if you had the money?

I do hope that the families who had no real reception provided SOMETHING for the guests though, even if it's just cake and punch. It's kind of rude not to.

I think we talked about that a long time ago on the old forum, but I think we agreed it was a southern thing.

Wedding etiquette in France and from what I've seen in Quebec, is that guests are owed a meal (in france it's an aperitif, then a meal then for close family and friends another meal the day after - this last bit does not exist in québec).

The idea is since you're giving a good chunk of money in wedding gift, you have a very decent meal and dance part. I think most people would be really insulted if the only thing hapenning was just a small cake and refreshment. They'd have to pay for a night meal on the road? Not worth investing in wedding gifts at all.

But yeah, cultural thing I'm sure.

[emeraldskull]

I think we talked about that a long time ago on the old forum, but I think we agreed it was a southern thing.

Wedding etiquette in France and from what I've seen in Quebec, is that guests are owed a meal (in france it's an aperitif, then a meal then for close family and friends another meal the day after - this last bit does not exist in québec).

The idea is since you're giving a good chunk of money in wedding gift, you have a very decent meal and dance part. I think most people would be really insulted if the only thing hapenning was just a small cake and refreshment. They'd have to pay for a night meal on the road? Not worth investing in wedding gifts at all.

But yeah, cultural thing I'm sure.

Yeah, that is definitely cultural... Here in the western US, nobody would really "expect" anything of a wedding. It might have food, it might have just finger foods, it might have dancing, it might not... It's all personal preference and what the couple can afford (Not so much parents paying for the whole wedding anymore)

Personally, I will probably have sort of a potluck kind of dinner for my wedding (since I expect it to be rather long), and definitely lots of dancing!

[LadyBBR]

I remember reading a post by Meredith's Dad that gave a detailed wedding budget to "help" other families. I think their wedding was fairly simple, but I was suprised to see it cost nearly $10,000.

alexanderadventuresfamilyblog.blogspot.com/2011/01/wedding-budget.html

[MrsYoungie]

I'm not a fan of big over the top weddings that take 2 years to plan. Our own wedding was planned quickly and was ridiculously small. But it's now 38 years later - so I guess it "took".

But often in the planning of the huge over the top wedding (esp. those as seen on tv) the actual point of the wedding gets lost in the shuffle.

At least with the fundies they seem to emphasize the ceremony itself rather than all the trappings. There is much more focus on the wedding than the reception. Granted,I would be bored silly at the long long ceremonies and sermons that come with the fundy ceremony. More like church service.

Personally, I'm all about the reception. But it doesn't have to be huge. Just give me some food and some music and some interesting people to talk to and I'm super happy. Also - I prefer smaller weddings where the bride & groom can actually talk to everyone there for at least a few minutes.

[MamaJunebug]

(I could've sworn I posted this before. Keep an eye on me, I *am* in my dotage!)

Royal weddings are generally bigger than others. Think the Serven girls' nuptials in '07 ('09?). Full-plate dinners -- though prepared by friends and served buffet-style, but with dancing and musicians IIRC.

Both married Brown girls had swell functions under the tent and in the barn their parents call home-and-conference-center. Again, though, Deborha and the girls made the thousands (?) of cheesecakes and other food in the weeks preceiding at least Blair's nuptials.

I'm trying to remember what if anything was on the plates at the Georgia-area weddings of Cap'n Bret's daughter and others. Did they blow all the money on trumpeters? (blow...trumpeters....me so funneh...) All i recall of the "reception" was the bride washing the groom's feet ... excuse me while my brain bursts.

I understand from lots of reading - but have never personally gone to one - that among LDS in "the Mormon corridor" of Utah, Idaho, etc., that it's pretty common for the ward wedding to be followed by something pretty bare-bones in the fellowship hall or gymnasium. Crepe paper over the basketball hoops, punch and cookies and Jordan almonds. Some on exmormon.org seem to think it's a badge of righteousness to have as skimpy (their words) a party afterward, as possible. I think the idea is that the couple are smart enough not to be blowing money on silly parties, but investing it in tithes and family.

One comment about the Botkin/Noor fete. Doesn't seem to me like either family has a ton of money at present. Botkins are renting a house, AFAWK, right? And they haven't been on any grand junkets a la the Family Phillips. Mrs. Noor is either widowed or divorced and it stands to reason that a good Dominoinist divorcee or widow has little in the way of money to splurge on her daughter's post-lecture feed.

It was a lecture, not a wedding, IMHO, and while it looks like a tasty enough picnic, it was a feed, not a reception, because I bet there wasn't one bottle of beer, rendition of "YMCA" or good fight (see "Bend It Like Beckham" and the director's notes. It's not any kind of wedding without a good fight, fist-fight or quarrel-fight! ;) )

[acheronbeach]

I think we talked about that a long time ago on the old forum, but I think we agreed it was a southern thing.

Wedding etiquette in France and from what I've seen in Quebec, is that guests are owed a meal (in france it's an aperitif, then a meal then for close family and friends another meal the day after - this last bit does not exist in québec).

The idea is since you're giving a good chunk of money in wedding gift, you have a very decent meal and dance part. I think most people would be really insulted if the only thing hapenning was just a small cake and refreshment. They'd have to pay for a night meal on the road? Not worth investing in wedding gifts at all.

But yeah, cultural thing I'm sure.

I think this is the norm in Ontario, too. I've never heard of a wedding without dinner, and there's an expectation that you give a nice gift at a wedding because the wedding couple's shelling out for a nice dinner for you.

[Marian the Librarian]

Agreed MJB - I think the Botkins are keeping just one step ahead of the bill collector. Also agreed that David and Nadia's wedding served primarily as lecture time for Papa, and one assumes Ben's wedding presented another opportunity for same.

The fact that Geoff has drafted both young couples into his money-making "here's how we do marriage right" webinar series speaks volumes. He uses his offspring, both single and married, as sources of revenue stream.

[JosiePye]

I get that one's guests aren't "owed" anything; however, I do believe that it is polite to offer your guests something in return for everything the guests put into attending your celebration. For example, your typical Saturday wedding for an out of town guest can run literally hundreds of dollars when you consider the all the costs associated with attending: getting time off work, a hotel or motel room overnight, gas for the trip, food on the road, clothes for the wedding, a gift for the couple. When you are asking so much of your guests, it seems only polite to offer them a good meal and a little entertainment in return. Because, let's face it, weddings are only really fun for the very closest friends and family of the bride and groom. And I can't think of any other situation where people would be comfortable asking their family and associates to make a big financial outlay and offer HOTDOGS in return.

[MamaJunebug]

I get that one's guests aren't "owed" anything; however, I do believe that it is polite to offer your guests something in return for everything the guests put into attending your celebration. For example, your typical Saturday wedding for an out of town guest can run literally hundreds of dollars when you consider the all the costs associated with attending: getting time off work, a hotel or motel room overnight, gas for the trip, food on the road, clothes for the wedding, a gift for the couple. When you are asking so much of your guests, it seems only polite to offer them a good meal and a little entertainment in return. Because, let's face it, weddings are only really fun for the very closest friends and family of the bride and groom. And I can't think of any other situation where people would be comfortable asking their family and associates to make a big financial outlay and offer HOTDOGS in return.

All true, yet I imagine that therre are Botkin fans whose hearts raced when they received the invitation to be there in-person, what an honor!!!

Re: the Ben Botkin/whatshername wedding, recall that the bride's father is an MD, a practicing anesthesiologist, to boot. In that case, the bride's family certainly was equipped to provide a roast beef-ish meal, on china, with tablecloths and cut flowers. I mean, c'mon, the bridal gown was by all accounts made for the occasion and didn't have to be modesty'ed up with a cap-sleeve knit blouse beneath it!

(Slightly OT: Do you imagine Nadia's gown was the one her mom wore, decades ago, possibly with a little bolero jacket over the spaghetti-strapped bodice?)

[Ruby]

My fundie wedding occurred when I was 20, and was very much on the cheap. My Mom made my dress & veil, and the five bride's maids dresses. (The fabric was a cotton blend) There were no fresh flowers. The reception was in the church "parlors" (i.e. basement), and we served food we made ourselves. My grandma made the teired cake, and my parents made the sheet cakes. There was no dancing or alcohol, although my Dad brought out a case of champaigne later when the family got together at my parents' house.

There were a couple of reasons for this ~ 1) We weren't financially well off. 2) We so did not believe in debt (attended our first Gothard seminar two years prior) and 3) There's a wee bit of pride in being more-humble-than-thou.

[Witsec6]

Most of the weddings I've been to (including mine) were small. Punch and cake is the norm. Guests don't expect a meal.

My wedding including the dress cost under $1000.

Some people believe that a wedding is one day. A special day,but only one. Why spend thousands of dollars or go into debt for one day? WOuldn't that money do better in a savings account or as a down payment on a house?

This.

My wedding was a bit more expensive because we had a professional photographer for the entire day, but we only had one attendant each, the ceremony and reception were both at my husband's childhood church, and we had a tea reception directly after the ceremony with one champagne toast.

IIRC with the invitations, rings, dress, suit rental, photographer, caterer, hall rental and tip for the priest it came to under 4,000.

Anyway, I thought the hotdog and hamburger reception looked lovely. The decor was beautiful, and I loved that their friends all helped to serve the meal. In fact, if we had opted out of having a caterer, the Womens' League had offered to make us a tea for our reception (of course, we would have donated money to their cause).

I would not feel put out at all if I went to a wedding that had a reception like that.

[Eclipse]

Isn't a dinner standard at a wedding? I'm thinking its one of the cultural differences between Canada and the US.

I went to the weddings of two friends who I considered fundies until I was exposed to the Duggar/Maxwell/Botkin type fundie. Neither of them had dancing or alcohol due to their religious beliefs but they still had meals. Our bridesmaids dresses were made by a friend, who raised the neckline. I think the bridesmaids dresses were about $100 but she gave us a deal break.

The one had her reception at lunch time so no dancing was expected. There still was a multi course meal. The other had her reception at a Butterfly Conservatory where there wasn't enough room for dancing but there was still a full meal. The one had a budget of 4000 and the other was 2000.

[Eclipse]

I remember reading a post by Meredith's Dad that gave a detailed wedding budget to "help" other families. I think their wedding was fairly simple, but I was suprised to see it cost nearly $10,000.

alexanderadventuresfamilyblog.blogspot.com/2011/01/wedding-budget.html

I got the impression from that blog post that its still the girl's family who has the responsibility for buying for the wedding, which I don't think is standard in mainstream society any more.

[Witsec6]

Isn't a dinner standard at a wedding? I'm thinking its one of the cultural differences between Canada and the US.

I went to the weddings of two friends who I considered fundies until I was exposed to the Duggar/Maxwell/Botkin type fundie. Neither of them had dancing or alcohol due to their religious beliefs but they still had meals. Our bridesmaids dresses were made by a friend, who raised the neckline. I think the bridesmaids dresses were about $100 but she gave us a deal break.

The one had her reception at lunch time so no dancing was expected. There still was a multi course meal. The other had her reception at a Butterfly Conservatory where there wasn't enough room for dancing but there was still a full meal. The one had a budget of 4000 and the other was 2000.

I'm in Canada.

[demgirl]

It's interesting. I didn't know until this conversation came up on the last board that people had weddings without sit down dinners and dancing, unless they actually literally eloped. I don't know if it's geographical or cultural or what... but every single wedding I've been to, even of my friends in law school who were mad poor, has had the full reception in a hall with a band or DJs, a dance floor and a sit down dinner with appetizers and a full bar.

Edited to add that all my wedding experiences are either Northeast/New England, California or Pennsylvania.