Budgets of Botkin and other royal fundie weddings

[Eclipse]

I'm in Canada.

What was involved in the tea reception? Did you serve sandwiches and squares like at a high tea?

[LadyBBR]

We had a very elegant wedding in 1999 for under $10,000. However, we had less than 50 guests.

[lalapendragon]

In NYC the norm is a full bar, dancing and a full multi-course dinner or it is the norm among people I grew up with and the weddings I have attended. I have never heard of a wedding without a dinner. I think it is the current expectation and things may certainly change but these fundie weddings look way bare bones to me. And totally not fun. I went to a dry wedding in Georgia once and most of the people spent the entire time in the parking lot drinking smuggled liquor. Went to one reception in a church hall in VA with punch and ham biscuits (tasty) and was very surprised at the lack of substantial food.

Of course most of these are child-free events so the fundies would never stand for it.

[darkplumaged]

I get that one's guests aren't "owed" anything; however, I do believe that it is polite to offer your guests something in return for everything the guests put into attending your celebration. For example, your typical Saturday wedding for an out of town guest can run literally hundreds of dollars when you consider the all the costs associated with attending: getting time off work, a hotel or motel room overnight, gas for the trip, food on the road, clothes for the wedding, a gift for the couple. When you are asking so much of your guests, it seems only polite to offer them a good meal and a little entertainment in return. Because, let's face it, weddings are only really fun for the very closest friends and family of the bride and groom. And I can't think of any other situation where people would be comfortable asking their family and associates to make a big financial outlay and offer HOTDOGS in return.

ITA. I would have enjoyed a lower-key wedding, but well over half of our guests came from out of town--some from the other side of the country. I don't think you can give people who've traveled 3000 miles to see you cake and punch... or hot dogs. But I guess if most weddings you attend are done on the cheap, that seems normal to you and you won't mind.

I've been to only one hors d'oeuvres wedding. That was OK--it was lunchtime or mid-afternoon, and there were plenty of little sandwiches and such, served in a nice hall.

[xReems]

I think to fundies, having a lavish and huge ceremony isn't what a wedding to them is about, which I don't mind if you believe it. To them, a wedding is not about spending thousands of dollars when it needs to be about honoring God and the bride and groom. I know that David Botkin and Nadia chose a covenant wedding, which eh, not my cup of tea, but whatever.

I'm a Hindu and my family throws huge weddings. Our typical wedding has over 200 guests (anything less is unheard of). The reason being is because our weddings are also a family reunion. You meet family members whom you've never met or met when years before but when you see each other, it's like as if you're really close and keep in touch all the time. We don't have things like "oh this is our first cousin, second cousin, etc", it's more like brothers and sisters than cousins. We take families very seriously, hence why we have such huge weddings. I know when my boyfriend (who is also a Hindu) and I get married, it's going to be crazy. However, compared to typical fundie weddings, we have open bars (very religious family yet drinks like a fish at weddings haha), we dance, laugh and joke, and all around, just enjoy each other's company.

[Witsec6]

What was involved in the tea reception? Did you serve sandwiches and squares like at a high tea?

Yes. Sandwiches, hot pies, and sweets. No seating plan or anything, but there were a few tables for people who couldn't stand for long. We also only had three speeches.

[LadyBBR]

In NYC the norm is a full bar, dancing and a full multi-course dinner or it is the norm among people I grew up with and the weddings I have attended. I have never heard of a wedding without a dinner. I think it is the current expectation and things may certainly change but these fundie weddings look way bare bones to me. And totally not fun. I went to a dry wedding in Georgia once and most of the people spent the entire time in the parking lot drinking smuggled liquor. Went to one reception in a church hall in VA with punch and ham biscuits (tasty) and was very surprised at the lack of substantial food.

Of course most of these are child-free events so the fundies would never stand for it.

I posted above - that I had a very elegant wedding for 50 people for $10,000. We didn't serve any alcohol. My parents are both alcoholics and my brothers and I NEVER drink for this reason. I am also a social worker and daily see the problems with addictions. We did have an open bar with anything non-alcoholic (my husband and I both love Shirley Temples). I am often suprised by how many people are shocked that we don't drink. What's the big deal?

[HowRude]

I think fundies like having cheap wedding because its part of the frugal lifestyle. They also seem to like simpler things, they probably just see it as one day. Also it is probably the children paying for the wedding because of the leave and cleave policy.

[Katiebug]

They probably go frugal because 1) Most fundie families have multiple daughters to marry off and I suspect the bride's family is expected to pay, and 2) Most fundie families don't have a lot of money and won't go into debt for a glorified party.

Weddings are a huge business. We got married 6.5 years ago and we live in southern New England, so we were expected to have a certain sort of wedding - a dinner, dancing, open bar, and at a venue rather than the church basement. It's just what is done in our social circle; a punch and cake reception or something similar is basically unheard of. Our parents helped with some of the expenses but we paid for most of it. We were engaged for almost 18 months in order to save up and pay cash for the whole thing (we didn't go into debt for it). When meeting with vendors we found that as soon as the "W" word was mentioned, it was as if a vendor's eyes lit up with dollar signs. I'm fairly sure that many of the same services rendered for a family reunion or corporate party would have been cheaper!

[ThisOlGirl]

Yes, what Bananacat said:

I think a lot of fundies skip the reception because they can't drink or dance, so what would they do? It also delays the newlyweds from their honeymoon, and if they've been having hand sex for a few months and nothing else, they don't want to wait a second longer than they have to.

Quick courtship, quick betrothal, quick wedding, so they can get right to the quiver-filling. No need to go all out since the ceremony itself is merely a formality.

Although I'm sure our favorite show pony Dougie will throw quite a shindig for his kids. Vision Forum has always struck me as trying to be "high-end", so a lavish wedding would be kind of a PR thing on Dougie's part. Hell, he'll probably plan the whole thing, from the color scheme to the flowers to the cake. He's probably already got his wedding finery picked out--the bride will be outshined for sure.

[Deleted12]

Yes, what Bananacat said:

Quick courtship, quick betrothal, quick wedding, so they can get right to the quiver-filling. No need to go all out since the ceremony itself is merely a formality.

Although I'm sure our favorite show pony Dougie will throw quite a shindig for his kids. Vision Forum has always struck me as trying to be "high-end", so a lavish wedding would be kind of a PR thing on Dougie's part. Hell, he'll probably plan the whole thing, from the color scheme to the flowers to the cake. He's probably already got his wedding finery picked out--the bride will be outshined for sure.

I bet Doug's already got a wedding scrapbook with cake pictures and fabric samples, and maybe even a few dress sketches. 'Cause you know, you have to PLAN for a modest, epistemologically correct wedding with lots of sparkles.

[dirtyhippiegirl]

Trying to put myself in the shoes of some of these women, I think I'd be kind of...depressed? let down? at some of the weddings. I mean...being raised to believe that your greatest achievement in life will be getting married and having kids coupled with some of the weird princess/lady themes that some of the families instill in their young(er) girls...

I mean, I didn't really have a wedding. I had a quickie JP marriage due to immigration to issues. All the memories I have of that day are a couple of pics that my dad snapped on his cellphone. No reception or party afterwards because we had to put money towards immigration fees. It sucked. But I had academic and job achievements to fall back on -- other things to round out my life. But if the high point of my life was supposed to be 1) my wedding day and 2) popping out kids...yikes.

[Deleted12]

On the site http://www.exmormon.org a lot of the women say that they were SO disappointed in their temple weddings.

I suppose that for a lot of these women, getting married is THE goal that you spend 18+ years planning for and anticipating.

On the side of the more modest wedding, I wonder whether girls who come from large families bask in the attention they get for that one day, or whether it's a LOT to deal with and they're happier having something less stress-inducing.

(I used the phrase "a lot" a lot in this post. :P )

[dirtyhippiegirl]

On the site http://www.exmormon.org a lot of the women say that they were SO disappointed in their temple weddings.

Could you point to the posts? I'm trying to navigate the site but it's a bit overwhelming.

[Deleted12]

Could you point to the posts? I'm trying to navigate the site but it's a bit overwhelming.

Here's a thread that touches on it:

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon339.htm

Unfortunately the site is a bear to navigate. I've spent hours reading through it and that's where I got the "Temple weddings are teh suxx0r" message from.

ETA: here's another thread that's a little more forthcoming: http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon507.htm

[lalapendragon]

It is no big deal not to drink. I don't drink (much) and we had an open bar because it was for the guests and of all nights it was not one for me or my new spouse to drink a lot. I got married in the mid-90s and had many people at my wedding and it was in retrospect a huge waste of money. But at the time it was the most important thing in the world and I got myself crazed. Now years later I realize it doesn't matter at all but still would not want a fundie wedding with no food and no fun.

[bananacat]

Trying to put myself in the shoes of some of these women, I think I'd be kind of...depressed? let down? at some of the weddings. I mean...being raised to believe that your greatest achievement in life will be getting married and having kids coupled with some of the weird princess/lady themes that some of the families instill in their young(er) girls...

I mean, I didn't really have a wedding. I had a quickie JP marriage due to immigration to issues. All the memories I have of that day are a couple of pics that my dad snapped on his cellphone. No reception or party afterwards because we had to put money towards immigration fees. It sucked. But I had academic and job achievements to fall back on -- other things to round out my life. But if the high point of my life was supposed to be 1) my wedding day and 2) popping out kids...yikes.

This is exactly what I thought. For women in modern times, having a small wedding isn't a big deal because we have other things going on. But for fundie women, this is pretty much their entire life so I thought they'd make a bigger deal of it. For most of us it's just a part of life, but for fundies this is supposed to set the path for their entire lives.

[YPestis]

This is exactly what I thought. For women in modern times, having a small wedding isn't a big deal because we have other things going on. But for fundie women, this is pretty much their entire life so I thought they'd make a bigger deal of it. For most of us it's just a part of life, but for fundies this is supposed to set the path for their entire lives.

This is my thought as well, and the reason I started this thread. If my life's achievement culminates at The Wedding, I would expect a fairly big affair. I would expect my family to spend a little bit extra. The fact that some fundies families don't made me think maybe their family finances aren't as robust as we'd think. In David Botkin's case, maybe the fact that the bride's mother is widowed meant their wedding has to be a frugal affair. I figure the Maxwells are also used to living frugally. Their wealthy is relatively new.

Anyways, my original post was not to make fun of the Botkin or anyone else's wedding. It's a celebration of two couples getting together and should be whatever the couple decides. However, I find it interesting that many go for a "bare bones" wedding, when they make it sound like such a hugely important part of a girl's life.

[justlurking]

In NYC the norm is a full bar, dancing and a full multi-course dinner or it is the norm among people I grew up with and the weddings I have attended. I have never heard of a wedding without a dinner.

Co-sign. I'm from New Jersey and have never been to a wedding that didn't have a full dinner reception afterward (even if the food was made by the family and served buffet style a'la fundie weddings). Most weddings that I have attended have featured some sort of hor douerve (sp?) hour (while the wedding party is taking pics) and is then preceded by an actual meal--even weddings that had a lower budget.

[mythoughtis]

I'm from Illinois...not CHICAGO. Weddings in CHICAGO cost a fortune (try $50,000), because they do sit down dinners. Weddings in central IL run the range from church wedding, church reception to hotel wedding and reception, and combinations there-of. Large weddings of 21 year olds, where Mom and Dad had been saving their entire life might have sit down dinner,and a band.

However, most weddings these days have a buffet line, a DJ, maybe a keg, and a CASH bar. Open bar is too expensive, also the liability issues for guests that drink and drive are worriesome. Religious people tend not to have liquor at all, and some still do the church reception .... cake, punch, etc.

Anyone who thinks they are entitled to a meal and free drinks because they are buying a wedding gift should just not go to the wedding... that's not the point of inviting you or of going. That kind of thinking is what gets the kids in hock to pay for a wedding.

The wedding is one day, and who wants to spend the equivalent of a small house on it? Did I mention that the median home price here is just over $100,000? Our wedding was about $5000 20 years ago, and that included my dress, the hall, the DJ, the photographer, the caterer, ALL of it, which we paid ourselves.

[fundyfunland]

But often in the planning of the huge over the top wedding (esp. those as seen on tv) the actual point of the wedding gets lost in the shuffle.

At least with the fundies they seem to emphasize the ceremony itself rather than all the trappings. There is much more focus on the wedding than the reception. Granted,I would be bored silly at the long long ceremonies and sermons that come with the fundy ceremony. More like church service.

Was going to say something along those lines. I think perhaps, they want to stress that the wedding is only an intro to the main event...the marriage, so why make it a huge party? Also, the fundie emphais on not having any debt...a lot of people I know, undertook about 30K debt to pay for their wedding. I just don't see that notion flying w/ fundie royalty.

On a side note, I really liked the idea of the Botkin-Noor wedding, with the bbq & all. I'm all for simple weddings now though, so I may be biased. I think the wedding industry is a huge scam too.

Edited for clarity

[nuri]

I think my wedding, which was in the Chicago Suburbs ran a little under 10k, and that was trying to do it cheaply with a lot of guests. Since moving to Central IL, I've seen a lot more weddings in either area as mythoughtis describes. Except for my brother's wedding, because he really valued having a "classy" wedding, but he footed the bill himself.

I can't think of the last wedding I went to that had a band. They all have had DJ's. I've seen an instrumentalist at the church (we had the little sister of my best friend play a violin. His other sister had a harpist playing video game music when she had her wedding at the same venue) but that's it. On the other hand, I haven't been to a wedding that didn't serve a meal of some sort, even if it is earlier in the day.

[Austin]

Most of the weddings I've been to (including mine) were small. Punch and cake is the norm. Guests don't expect a meal.

My wedding including the dress cost under $1000.

Some people believe that a wedding is one day. A special day,but only one. Why spend thousands of dollars or go into debt for one day? WOuldn't that money do better in a savings account or as a down payment on a house?

Uh, yes. Co-sign completely.

We had a very nice 2:00 p.m. wedding with a cake & punch reception in the church hall. My dress was very pretty, the ceremony was lovely, and we were surrounded by family and friends. We spent about the same as you. And now that it was almost three decades ago, I can barely remember it, so I'm sure glad we didn't spend $5-10K on it, which would have been like the people who spend $20-30K today.

Those are just my sensibilities, so obviously not saying that it's wrong to have a big, expensive wedding - it's a free country. But we've already told our sons we won't be shelling out big money for oppulent weddings. We will offer a set amount to each son and they can do what they want (or more likely, what their brides want :D ) from there.

ETA: Our wedding invitation made very clear that we would have a cake and punch reception (there were tea sandwiches and other "finger foods") right after the wedding so if any invitees didn't feel "paid back" by our style, they shouldn't have come, and I hope they didn't. I think that the idea of "owing" your guests something is. . . well. . . distasteful. No one can force anybody to go to a wedding and we certainly didn't expect expensive gifts (we didn't register anywhere - many young women at that time - including me - collected their china and flatware when they made bank deposits over a number of years - lol).

[anniebgood]

We had a 6pm candlelight wedding and reception following in the church hall. No booze, but it wasn't a problem. We bought all the food, my aunt and uncle who were used to doing big receptions for their Job's Daughters and Eastern Star folk helped us organize. We had hot and cold hors d'oeuvres and cold cuts, cheese, fresh rolls, and punch and cake. The reception was over by 830 and we helped clean up and then left.

The next after noon we had a dinner at my folks house for my inlaws and parents to get to know each other and we opened all our gifts. Monday we flew to Lake Tahoe and were there for 5 days.

It cost us about 3000$ total, and that included my hand made dress, invitations, gifts, and flowers. While the church was free we had to pay for the organist, wedding hostess, custodian and sound person.

[clibbyjo]

It's interesting. I didn't know until this conversation came up on the last board that people had weddings without sit down dinners and dancing, unless they actually literally eloped. I don't know if it's geographical or cultural or what... but every single wedding I've been to, even of my friends in law school who were mad poor, has had the full reception in a hall with a band or DJs, a dance floor and a sit down dinner with appetizers and a full bar.

Edited to add that all my wedding experiences are either Northeast/New England, California or Pennsylvania.

Same here. People expect full everything here and I have only been to full out weddings except a fundie cousin who had no drinking or dancing and all the male relatives were pissed and went to a bar next door throughout the evening. I would redo my whole wedding if I could,have only who I want ,a fancy dress(not wedding dress) and spend all that extra money on a down payment instead. My parents paid for my wedding,but having 3 girls and only having to pay for my wedding I think they lucked out. :)