10 Shraders in Zambia and counting...

[Palimpsest]

3rd row down, 5th from the left :) If you hover over any of them, they will tell you what they are if you can't figure them out for any odd looking ones, as well.

Found it through hovering! Thanks so much. Although in my view (don't ask because I don't know what it is) it seems to be 2nd row down, 5th from the left! Third row has a single icon I don't understand. I'm not a fast learner on computer stuff and I have no idea what some of those classy icons are supposed to do :embarrassed:

OK, everyone can stop laughing at me now. I confess to being a dolt.

[Palimpsest]

I was looking on the IAM Ministries web site and got this:

The philosophy of IAM Ministries is to train nationals to train nationals, to reach nationals. We have been doing this for 23 years in Zambia and now have men we have trained doing the same thing in Angola, Congo, Tanzania, Malawi, and Botswana.

With the direction of the Holy Spirit we have had the privilege of seeing the following results:

Over 250 nationals have been trained resulting in the establishment of over 200 churches planted.

4 Bible Institutes established in Zambia

A deaf ministry, prison and police ministry, blind and handicap ministry, an Encounter Revival ministry, which presents the gospel through music and preaching at various schools and colleges, along with trained nationals going out to five other countries have been established by the nationals

*******************************************************************************************************

This is all about training African nationals. I just don't get where the Schraders fit into the IAM paradigm, or do they plan to insert themselves into the IAM Ministries presence in Zambia or somehow (!) support the IAM mission? I wasn't following this when the Schraders were pitching their mission. Can anyone enlighten me?

On an odd side note, some neighbors went to Zambia for a month or two two summers ago -- church connection of some kind. They loved being there and told me that people in Zambia and particularly where they were staying, ate a corn-based dish with every meal, every single day.

I guess corn was introduced as a staple crop in the 16th & 17th C., to the detriment of growing the local staples like sorghum and millet. Just seemed interesting that a food that originated in Mexico found its way around the world, and now is a permanent part of the daily diet for an African country. Gotta be a story there somewhere and I'm guessing it is somehow related to the slave trade.

Anyway, if you want to read about nshima (which looks like masa) and the ritual of eating eat at each meal, there is a great Wiki entry here.

"Nshima is almost always eaten with two side dishes, known as "relishes": a protein source, usually meat, poultry, fish or groundnuts (peanuts); and a vegetable, often Kale, chibwabwa (pumpkin leaves) or cabbage. The sides are known as Ndiwo or Umunani in chibemba."

Pumpkin (in the squash family) is also a New World food and probably traveled over with corn.

Dang, this sounds like my kind of meal!

Update: just found this link to the history of Nshima and why as a staple, is has deleterious effects on overall health.

(apologies for these link-y posts. I've been sick for two weeks and am at the point where I'm not at death's door, but not back to full steam, so boredom and a bit of time on my hands....)

So sorry you are sick and I really hope you are feeling better now. It is amazing how much trivia one can learn when feeling sub-par. I speak from experience. :mrgreen:

Here's some more useless trivia facts: "Corn" is the word used for the staple grain crop in many parts of the English speaking world. So, in the US "corn" is what much of the rest of the English-speaking world calls maize. In the UK, "corn" is wheat (staple crop) and maize is maize or increasingly (US influence) "sweet corn." In Africa, traditionally, maize is maize = US "corn." And, yes, maize is a staple possibly introduced to Africa from the New World by the Portuguese at about the same time Sir Walter Raleigh introduced the potato to the UK, and Europe (especially the Italians) began to understand that the Vasco de Gama's Chinese tomato was not poisonous but delicious! Confusing and fascinating.

Back to Shrader and IAM Ministries. He is fully on board, at least in theory, with the "training nationals to teach nationals" bit. He posted about it on FB a lot. I really think he will come to regret wiping his Face Book because that stuff used to be on it and would give him (some) credibility going forward. I fear that his devotion to teaching the teachers is in name only, however.

John's take on all this is that those backward Africans really need a white guy to train them in true Godliness, Bonner's seed work training nationals over 25 years not withstanding, John's white guy perspective is so needed!

John is also very big on not giving Africans money. These lesser beings have to learn to help themselves, don't you know. John is living in faith alone and lots of donations but Africans have to work for money. In Burundi John happily accepted soft drinks, taxi rides, gourmet African meals and so on from nationals. He and David Rea probably consumed poor Arnaud's food budget for a month or two, and gave him a cheap copy of the Pilgrim's Progress and a few tracts and prayers in return.

John is a fool and a parasite.

[Palimpsest]

He did laundry. :o

Praise the LORD!

[nana sew dear]

I have BPD type 2 also. It goes undiagnosed unless your MD or therapist knows what to look for. Antidepressant meds can make it worse. A good book about type 2 is "Why Am I Still Depressed". Sorry, I can't think of the authors name but he is a doctor with a practice in Corvallis, OR. Amazon has the book.

[Howl]

Sounds like John's plan is to drive around and fly around and give people advice on headship, wifely submission and having a bazillion kids because bible, and generally act as a role model for things white fundies like.

[Palimpsest]

Sounds like John's plan is to drive around and fly around and give people advice on headship, wifely submission and having a bazillion kids because bible, and generally act as a role model for things white fundies like.

Yep. That is about it. IMO.

Most Zambians and Africans could teach John a whole heck of a lot. But he will not be listening. Because he is white.:(

[klavierspieler]

To try to answer a few questions.

John Shrader's type of Poisonwood Bible missionary is becoming increasingly common in IFB circles. :( Per information gleaned from other posters (Klavierspieler are you out there?) and my googling John is vaguely connected to Bobby Bonner's IAM Ministries, but is only responsible to his "sending church," Valley Baptist in Oregon, and to other churches that sponsor him. His Sending Church is the only one that could exert any form of control over him and pull him out of Zambia if needed. They are also on the hook for any expenses he incurs in Africa.

Donations to TeamZambia are funneled through some rinky-dink store-front organization to get him 501©(3) status (forget the name but could look it up if asked). The organization pushes all responsibility back on the Sending Church and advises but does not require training and health insurance.

Excellent summation. IFB's don't really have mission boards the way everyone else thinks of them. (Growing up one of the major things our church held against Southern Baptists, along with thinking them too liberal in several other areas, was that their practice of having a mission board that centrally channels all donations to missionaries was "not biblical.") John and Esther are theoretically accountable to all the churches that support them, but in reality that just means sending semi-regular updates about what they are accomplishing. The only repercussions if any particular church doesn't like what they are doing is that they withdraw their support. The sending church is the only one that has any sort of real pull, because in IFB circles your sending church is what legitimizes you. If they withdraw their support, the whole house of cards comes tumbling down, so they can use that as leverage. I'm not sure I would go so far as to say that the sending church is responsible for whatever expenses he incurs, though. He can plead for some extra help if he needs it, and his sending church is probably more likely to pony up some extra than the rest of his supporting churches, but financially he's really on his own. There's no contracts or anything, no real obligations that would protect missionaries in the field.

Someone asked about I AM. I honestly do not know how deeply John is involved with them. I know for certain that he *is* involved, just not sure how deeply. I have next to no contact with people from my old life now, since, as I mentioned somewhere before, I'm now considered to be pretty much Satan incarnate for choosing to be gay. :roll: And as we all know, that's catching, like cooties. Anyway, my impression (and this is just my impression, I have no proof) is that he has partnered with them but is not outright joining them. Honestly, there wouldn't be that much difference between the two in practice, though, since it's not like I AM is a real mission board. They make it sound very grand, but in reality it's just a couple of missionary families doing everything. I'm not sure how big their prison ministry or Bible institutes are now, but last I knew they only had a max of 3-4 nationals training to be pastors at any given time, and the deaf ministry currently consists of a school with 6-8 deaf children being taught ASL and a missionary who knows ASL occasionally interpreting for pastors in the bush. My best guess would be that John and Esther will be hanging out with the missionaries officially affiliated with I AM, sometimes preaching together, and sometimes John will go out on his own.

The talk about training nationals is nothing new and not unique to I AM Ministries. It's SOP for IFB missionaries around the world, or at least it has been as long as I can remember (which would be about 18 years at this point). They have at least managed to figure out that it's easier to train and use people who are native to the language and culture to try to reach others. Don't make the mistake, though, of assuming that because Bonner and his people have been there for 25+ years that they don't share John's perspective on white Christians needing to come in and teach the black natives how to do things right. They wouldn't recognize it in themselves and would likely deny it vehemently if anyone tried to point it out to them, but there is a very deeply ingrained sense of cultural racism that I honestly think is inherent to IFB missions. I got the impression from Bonner many, many times during his preaching that he regarded the nationals as children who were naive and needed to be taught, and I heard the guy who runs the deaf ministry for him talk, in a sermon, about how the people there are lazy and have to be taught how to work. And no one blinks an eye. Hell, I didn't blink an eye at the time, it's only been in hindsight since getting out that I realized really how racist it was.

[nelliebelle1197]

He did laundry. :o

Do you need a shot of small batch bourbon to recover from the shock? I rushing over with one or three right now.

[LaLele]

It bugs me that they are teaching ASL and not Ghanaian Sign Language. GSL looks to be an offshoot of ASL so there is likely some mutual intelligibility, but GSL looks to be a separate language, not a dialect. The presumption that ASL teachers would be better then paying for Ghanian signers to teach children, or simply donating tuition to a school which teaches Ghanian Sign smacks of elitism. It doesn't surprise me, but it still pisses me off.

[Coconut Flan]

Do you need a shot of small batch bourbon to recover from the shock? I rushing over with one or three right now.

Yes, thank you, although it should probably be brandy for me. :)

[Palimpsest]

Klavierspieler

A like is not enough. You rock!

You have so much insight. What will it take to get you to post more often. :P

[klavierspieler]

Eh, I still feel like I have more to learn than to contribute most of the time. Not about fundies (after growing up that way I think I have that area covered ;) ), but about how the whole thing looks to normal people viewing it from the outside. How illogical and ridiculous the whole thing is. I started really moving away from the whole thing 3-4 years ago, but it takes a while to deprogram from 20-ish years of heavy duty indoctrination. Besides, there's lots of other ex-fundies on the board, and since I work strange hours most times anything I have to add has already been said by the time I get to a topic, and I dislike repetition. ;) It's rare that a topic like this comes up where I feel like I actually have something of value to add that maybe can't be added by another poster.

[Lillybee]

Since this is far away from the world that I grew up in, I am thankful for your insights.

[uber frau]

Eh, I still feel like I have more to learn than to contribute most of the time. Not about fundies (after growing up that way I think I have that area covered ;) ), but about how the whole thing looks to normal people viewing it from the outside. How illogical and ridiculous the whole thing is. I started really moving away from the whole thing 3-4 years ago, but it takes a while to deprogram from 20-ish years of heavy duty indoctrination. Besides, there's lots of other ex-fundies on the board, and since I work strange hours most times anything I have to add has already been said by the time I get to a topic, and I dislike repetition. ;) It's rare that a topic like this comes up where I feel like I actually have something of value to add that maybe can't be added by another poster.

There's as many variations of fundie as there are flavours of jellybean. What is standard operating procedure in one crowd is completely foreign to another. I'm ex-fundies but I grew up on another continent and in a theology that was pretty much as far from IFB as possible while still being under the 'Christian' umbrella. I find your insight fascinating.

And I totally understand the idea of using this board to understand how normal ppl think. I consider this board to be therapy (and it's a whole lot cheaper).

[samismad]

Regarding the malaria:

Native populations have some inherited resistance to malaria, in particular to the type of malaria that is in their area (there are multiple types, and the most deadly type is the one that they are most likely to get). Relatively well known examples of this resistance include the development of the gene that causes sickle cell anaemia (one copy = malaria can't attack red blood cells in you, two copies mean that you get sickle cell anaemia), another is favism (severe allergy to fava beans) which is most common in people of Mediterranean descent. HOWEVER, if the malaria scene changes (say by changing the water in the area from a stream to predominantly stagnant water, or vice versa, which changes which mosquitoes are dominant in the area, which changes which malaria, if any, is common in the area). This means that native populations have a level of immunity that means that they are much less likely to die of malaria. In some areas, malaria is regarded much the same way we'd think of a bad cold or the flu - sure, you COULD die of it, but most people don't, and it's just a major inconvenience that puts you out of action for a while. Seems odd, because we think of it as being so deadly. But again to compare it to colds and flus - for us, it isn't usually dangerous, but bring them in to a new environment, and the story is completely different, as has been seen all over the world as Europeans travelled.

The Shraders do not have any of this immunity. They're completely vulnerable to whichever type of malaria is common in the region. Without meds (which aren't usually given to pregnant women or young children) it's pretty dire. And these two groups make up those who are most vulnerable to malaria - as well as the majority of the Shraders.

There are obviously lots of other diseases, including things like measles, etc. In Zambia, the native population isn't going to have many of the genes that minimise the risks of such diseases, and immunisation is going to be lower, especially in rural areas. While the Shraders will have this kind of immunity, in rural areas of for isolated people, death or morbidity can come from lack of care during illness. If the whole family become ill with something, even something relatively minor, then someone (most likely a kid or Esther) can die of dehydration pretty quickly.

[scc12]

ty.that's scary.

I wonder why he didn't choose a country safer to be in.there are certainly many of those around.

[slickcat79]

Amazing and Awesome Answers to Actual, Abundant, and Adamant Prayer as You have Actually Asked our Abba for Approval!!!! <----(for real, though)

John traveled into Lusaka to check the status of his Visas. He didn't bring any of his paperwork with him because "they didn't ask for it last time" and he was very discouraged when they actually asked to see it. Luckily Bro. Sauder was able to help him reprint it and bring it back. John discovered that the Visa applications have been approved...yay :| However, no one can find them at the moment, and everyone is assuming that is because the approval was so recent. We'll see when/if he gets them in hand.

He met with Charity, the owner of "the house on the hill". John gave her his six months rent and signed a contract. Good stewardship of funds: check! He bought way more stuff in Lusaka than he could carry, and he gave a long description of his 2+ hour trip on multiple buses to get home. He carried 2 backpacks, multiple large shopping bags, and a cake for Charis's birthday (2 days late). Because after shelling out six months rent for an unfinished house (and no practical recourse if the house isn't finished), $10 for a taxi is just TOO extravagant.

[slickcat79]

John posted a very long screed about "Biblical" churches. I think he's feeling defensive about the pushback he's gotten re: his missionary efforts to a country that is already majority Christian. It's not enough for them to be Christian or even Protestant...if they are not "biblical Baptist" they're doin it rong. John is coming to Zambia with the authority of a biblical church, therefore he has a super speshul authorization to win souls and ordain local pastors :?

John starts off by pointing out that Doug Phillips and Bill Gothard are big proponents of "home churches", which are not biblical (he doesn't really explain why). Apparently, the fact that these 2 men were not under the authority of a true church allowed them to be tempted by Satan. Since they rejected biblical authority and became their own authority, this led to them preying on young women who were under their leadership :roll: This is definitely not the same as what John does because Bible.

John maintains that only Baptist churches are the true biblical New Testament churches, and any claims that they evolved from Catholic and Protestant churches is "an attempt to destroy true Biblical and historical fact" :cray-cray: He has read a lot of original books from the 17th-19th centuries, so you can be sure that what he's saying is true. Apparently the Catholics corrupted the original texts over the centuries, and while John typically uses the KJV, he decries the "wrong spirit" of the KJV-only crowd :?

John has decided that the many references to the "church" (or ekklesia) in the bible specifically refer to a "visible, local assembled group of baptized believers in the New Testament" (except for a bunch of times in Acts when ekklesia meant something else entirely). Still no explanation as to why a home church doesn't meet this criteria. Also, John's current church meets in a home, but since they are under the authority of Valley Baptist church, they are totally legit. The whole thing is really splitting hairs. It's also full of circular reasoning and appeals to (sometimes obscure) authorities, but I guess this is John's justification for a mission to the overwhelmingly-Christian Zambia.

[chaotic life]

I am always amused by Baptist Christians who are so disconnected from their own histroical roots that they re-write it to suit their own purpose. The Baptists split from the Church of England in the late 1700s and early 1800s. They came to the US because they were persecuted for splitting from the state church. However, they really made their mark leading up to and during the Civil War south because they staunchly supported slavery. What a legacy!

As for there being baptist believers in the original church, bullshit. There was very little original about the baptists at all, including their name. They say what the Anabaptists had done on the European continent and they wanted to do something similar when they split from the Church of England. They took their name from the Anabaptists, and their beliefs from several existing Protestant sects.

Yes, there was an established church in the early years of the religion. And the remnant of that church is DIRECT LINEAGE to both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. The two didn't officially split until after 1000 A.D. The early church had existing churches, places like Antioch and Jeruselem, all those churches that Paul wrote letters to. Yeah, they are STILL part of the Orthodox church, except for the church in Rome that split off from them. Not only do those churches still exist, not only are they patriarchs for the Church but Rome and the other patriarchs have reached a point of acceptance of each other at this point without discrediting the other side. You can find writing from church fathers as early as 70 AD, which would be in the time of Paul, preserved by both sides of the first Church and the Orthodox make those writings available for free ONLINE now.

If John Shrader thinks he's got the market on something special, then his education wasn't worth the time he spent earning it. He's clearly not learned his church history very well AT ALL. Moron.

[Palimpsest]

There's as many variations of fundie as there are flavours of jellybean. What is standard operating procedure in one crowd is completely foreign to another. I'm ex-fundies but I grew up on another continent and in a theology that was pretty much as far from IFB as possible while still being under the 'Christian' umbrella. I find your insight fascinating.

And I totally understand the idea of using this board to understand how normal ppl think. I consider this board to be therapy (and it's a whole lot cheaper).

What uber frau said!

Can I mine a little more information from you?

When a church agrees to sponsor a missionary do they commit to a certain monthly $$ amount (say $100.00) or do they just pass the plate asking for love offerings to Brother Shrader in Zambia every 6 weeks or so? The latter would be a lot more uncertain. I know he has several sponsoring churches because he Praised the Lord every time a church fell for his sales job.

Just to clarify, when I said that his sending church was on the hook for expenses incurred in Zambia -- that is a Zambian not an IFB requirement.

From memory, because I'm too lazy to look it up again, John had to attach a letter from Valley Baptist to his visa application saying that the Church would be responsible for all his costs. As a missionary applicant, John gets a long-term visa and a residency permit. He does not get a work permit. Missionaries are allowed in to donate goods and services and spend foreign money. They are not allowed to take jobs away from nationals. Similarly, there is a separate application to set up a business in Zambia. John was not applying for a business permit.

As far as I can see, the only control Valley Baptist has over John is financial. If his funding from the sponsoring churches dries up then Valley Baptist is on the hook for all his expenses. If Valley Baptist wants him out of Zambia then they can officially cut off funding. Of course, John could go rogue and try to earn money in Zambia but it would be only a matter of time until the Zambian authorities caught on and deported him.

If there were a crisis of any kind (medical, political emergency, or John getting arrested or deported), the American Consulate would provide the funds to get the family out of the country and back to the US. But they don't do that for free. Valley Baptist and John would get a pretty stiff bill presented after the fact, and the US government is fairly determined about recouping expenses in those cases.

[skankbiscuit]

I have spent a lot of time reading this thread - how long are they planning to be in Zambia? Something will surely happen to one of the children or the parents if they aren't vaxxed :(

[slickcat79]

If John Shrader thinks he's got the market on something special, then his education wasn't worth the time he spent earning it. He's clearly not learned his church history very well AT ALL. Moron.

He says he was taught at Bible College that the Baptists split from the RCC, he just rejects that teaching. He uses the following verses to justify:

Matt 16:18 and 28:20

1 Cor 11:26

Eph 3:21

None of them seem to mean what he says they mean. Or I can't tell how they are referring to his specific type of church and not any Christian church :? Guess this is why I'm not a bible scholar :lol:

[Palimpsest]

Amazing and Awesome Answers to Actual, Abundant, and Adamant Prayer as You have Actually Asked our Abba for Approval!!!! <----(for real, though)

John traveled into Lusaka to check the status of his Visas. He didn't bring any of his paperwork with him because "they didn't ask for it last time" and he was very discouraged when they actually asked to see it. Luckily Bro. Sauder was able to help him reprint it and bring it back. John discovered that the Visa applications have been approved...yay :| However, no one can find them at the moment, and everyone is assuming that is because the approval was so recent. We'll see when/if he gets them in hand.

He met with Charity, the owner of "the house on the hill". John gave her his six months rent and signed a contract. Good stewardship of funds: check! He bought way more stuff in Lusaka than he could carry, and he gave a long description of his 2+ hour trip on multiple buses to get home. He carried 2 backpacks, multiple large shopping bags, and a cake for Charis's birthday (2 days late). Because after shelling out six months rent for an unfinished house (and no practical recourse if the house isn't finished), $10 for a taxi is just TOO extravagant.

Thanks for the update. He didn't take his paperwork with him? :cracking-up: Typical! I expect he will have to go back to Lusaka a few more times before they find the approved visas. He won't care because it's not like he has a job to do, Esther can take care of the kids, and he can always go shopping!

What on earth was he buying (other than a birthday cake). Things they forgot to bring with them or luxury Western groceries? They really should learn to shop locally.

[Palimpsest]

He says he was taught at Bible College that the Baptists split from the RCC, he just rejects that teaching. He uses the following verses to justify:

Matt 16:18 and 28:20

1 Cor 11:26

Eph 3:21

None of them seem to mean what he says they mean. Or I can't tell how they are referring to his specific type of church and not any Christian church :? Guess this is why I'm not a bible scholar :lol:

John rejects an awful lot of stuff that might hinder him from getting his own way. His interpretation of the bible is the only correct one and no-one else is allowed to have discernment.

Mind you, I'm quite surprised that doing a Master of Biblical Studies at the proudly unaccredited Emmanuel Baptist Theological Seminary even gave him the info that the Baptists split from RCC.

[Palimpsest]

I have spent a lot of time reading this thread - how long are they planning to be in Zambia? Something will surely happen to one of the children or the parents if they aren't vaxxed :(

Indefinitely and yes. But I don't think even serious illness (unless it is John himself because he is a bit of a wimp when it comes to his own health) or the death of a child will deter John at this stage. He is having feckless fun and bad stuff will all be God's Will or Satan at Work.

In practice, I give them a maximum of 2 years. John is not known for long-term commitments or hard work. I expect he'll get bored and decide to come back to the US eventually.