These Are Not Comparable, Josh Harris

[MamaJunebug]

This is not even about the examples he gives.

What this is really about is the completely flawed theology that they teach. It has two parts that go like this:

1. If you follow all the rules we tell you make a good Christian, you will be healthy, happy and possibly even wealthy.

2. People out in "the world" don't follow these rules and that is why they are all miserable. (This is also a key to evangelization...we must go find them and tell them how to be healthy and happy and rich like us and they will all be so jealous of us that they are just waiting for us to tell them). (snip)

Well stated, Louisa05!!!! That is all. I am too distractable to do the "get the 'like' button" process right now. :roll:

[slh12280]

that story is so disturbing.

How much of my heart does my mom have? or my sister? Or do only boyfriends take pieces?

And if I give EVERY piece of my heart to a boy, and that boy turns out to be an assferret who divorces me, that would mean I have NO heart afterwards...because he had 100% of it.

Or if that boy ends up becoming dead, and I'm widowed--I've given him 100% of my heart so I have 0% to give and should never remarry?

The 'logic' crumbles awfully fast.

Yeah, I always wondered why you can get remarried when your spouse dies within this ideology. They always said it was because you fulfilled your vows but how is your heart still intact? It's almost like you can emotionally recover from things and form new attachments! Imagine that!

[Peas n carrots]

When I think of living in within this narrow Christian definition of a pure life, I can't help comparing myself to Sarah Maxwell. I'm just slightly older than her, and according to folks like Stevehovah and Josh Harris I did everything wrong. I had multiple sexual partners before marriage (I can't even remember most of their names as most of them were one night stands), have a college degree and work. Sarah has followed all the "rules" but she is still not married, while I've been married for several years. There has never been a moment where my sexual history nor my DH's has come up at all. We both know we had previous partners, but it's never been a source of anger or hurt - it's just part of the fabric of our lives.

Louisa brought up a good point in that they want us to think we are miserable. They seem to believe humanity is a borg collective and sinners just need to be brought back into the fold. They don't realize that people can live a variety of lifestyles and be happy with their choices that are outside their narrow definitions.

[jerkit]

Has anyone ever read the courtship story called 'The Jokes On Me' on a website named Commandments of Men? It is a long story from the point of view of a Christian man, unfamiliar with the patriarchy movement, who tragically falls in love with a young woman very much enmeshed in the cult of Gothard.

The story is a few years old, but it illustrates the difficulty, the near impossibility, of true love thriving within the hypocritical and soul-crushing courtship model.

Is this different than the one where they ended up not getting married?

[louisa05]

When I think of living in within this narrow Christian definition of a pure life, I can't help comparing myself to Sarah Maxwell. I'm just slightly older than her, and according to folks like Stevehovah and Josh Harris I did everything wrong. I had multiple sexual partners before marriage (I can't even remember most of their names as most of them were one night stands), have a college degree and work. Sarah has followed all the "rules" but she is still not married, while I've been married for several years. There has never been a moment where my sexual history nor my DH's has come up at all. We both know we had previous partners, but it's never been a source of anger or hurt - it's just part of the fabric of our lives.

Louisa brought up a good point in that they want us to think we are miserable. They seem to believe humanity is a borg collective and sinners just need to be brought back into the fold. They don't realize that people can live a variety of lifestyles and be happy with their choices that are outside their narrow definitions.

I think they do realize it, actually. But that is hard to sell. It is why they have to go to such great lengths to prove how miserable all these seemingly happy people are. American evangelicals have a "self help" strand running through their theology and doctrine and try to sell their faith and their churches on the premise that it will solve all your problems. "I didn't know how unhappy I was" is actually a key element of so many testimonies I heard in my years at the Christian school. Usually from young adults who, honestly, were probably just fine. But they had a bit of crisis, pain or heartache and someone jumped on it and convinced them it was because their whole life was miserable due to the lack of church (or the right kind of church). And since it was often a small crisis (a sports injury seemed to be a common one) that resolved itself over time, it resolved itself at the same time that they were sucked into evangelicalism and it was easy to credit the church or Jesus (rather than the orthopedist who repaired the torn meniscus or whatever it was).

Then they get a bit older and realize that surgeons can repair a torn meniscus whether you go to evangelical mega church three times a week or not and they are struggling to pay the bills and their marriage is less than perfect...and their neighbors over there are putting in a pool and taking their kids to Disney and they don't go to church at all. Wait a minute...what's wrong with this picture? And people like Harris have to swoop in to convince them that either they are not quite good enough Christians or the neighbors didn't really have a good time at Disney because they really are miserable, don't you know. At least the second is slightly less emotionally and spiritually damaging than the first.

[LucySnowe]

What's interesting about the purity example is his wife reportedly has a "past".

I'm not sure of all the details, but I read that he discusses it in the book he wrote about meeting and eventually marrying her. Boy Meets Girl, I think it's called.

Yeah, that's the one. And he seemed to think it was necessary to inform his readership that she lost her virginity at age 14 and basically slept around ever since, to the point of recklessness, until she was saved. But it's all right, because his dad cautioned him that he must never use her past as a weapon against her. :x So they only had chaste side hugs and wanted to save kissing for marriage.

One thing I never understood was something which was probably just made up - someone who said that, oh, if you're saving sex for the wedding night, then Shannon might feel like she's being raped. Huh? By that logic, any first time might be rape. And then (I am ashamed how many brain cells take up this information) there was a Cautionary Tale about how some guy didn't wait till marriage for sex, and then after marriage he started getting bored of it, and now he uses porn. Because obviously if he'd only waited, then he never ever would have gotten bored of sex with his spouse.

There's plenty more wtf hypocrisy and lack of logic.

Has anyone ever started an FJ book group? If so, I nominate this book.

[paintergurl]

Is this different than the one where they ended up not getting married?

It is the same. The writer never actually spelled out the end of the story, but left it at the point where the young woman was about to give in to her domineering, deluded and power-hungry 'patriarse' and end the courtship.

I haven't looked in the Free Jinger archives yet. If I came upon that blog in my research of Gothardism, others must have as well. I'm interested in learning how the practice of this kind of courtship truly works, and how often it fails miserably and actually damages the people involved.

[debrand]

One thing I never understood was something which was probably just made up - someone who said that, oh, if you're saving sex for the wedding night, then Shannon might feel like she's being raped. .

I had to read this multiple times and I am still confused. Why would their wedding night be at all comparable to rape? Obviously, they do not understand rape. Was Josh going to force her to have sex on their wedding night even if she didn't want to have sex? Or do they believe that having a lot of sex on the wedding night is equivalent to rape? People like Josh Harris like to play lip service to respecting women but if you believe that your wedding night is the same as rape, not only do you not respect your wife but you don't love her either

[debrand]

http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2011/06/27/ ... irl-again/

I just found this. Apparently, Josh Harris is going to republish Boy Meets Girls but leave out the couples that divorced.

Apparently, this new version will also be edited to remove some of the stories Josh Harris used as anecdotal evidence for how well courtship works…since at least two of the featured couples have either divorced or are in the process of divorcing.

Considering how many problems have arisen out of the courtship system Josh Harris advocates in Boy Meets Girl, and considering how he recently stood up in front of Covenant Life Church and quasi-apologized for helping to create an environment where godly living was “reduced to one practice,†it’s rather interesting that this book is being re-published so it can influence another generation of young people. Josh Harris even acknowledged in his apology that the “ideas in my [Josh's] books†were one of the false standards used in “reducing to one practice.â€

[mirele]

Josh Harris needs to resign from his pastorate** and come clean on all the sex abuse he was privy to and covered up as a part of being the head honcho of CLC since 2004 and one of C.J. Mahaney's proteges.

**Last Sunday in a sermon he talked about taking a leave of absence. He needs to make it permanent and he needs to STOP GIVING TOTALLY EFFED UP ADVICE.

[FormerlyFundyLite]

I would've started a new topic, but...long time lurker, first time poster and all that jazz. Somehow, nobody's mentioned that Josh Harris is going to seminary (covlife.org/blog/joshua_harris_sunday_remarks). Regent doesn't seem to fall under the hardcore conservative Christian school category. They're affiliated with the University of British Columbia--a secular institution.

Edited to break link. Whoops.