These Are Not Comparable, Josh Harris

[debrand]

On his site, Josh Harris attempts to answer a question that lots of people have asked. Why do some people succeed even if they act in unethical ways. His answer is that in the after life it will all work out

However the examples that he uses of wicked behavior are not equal

Ever feel like people who ignore God and his commands have a better life than you?

He cheats on tests, doesn't get caught and gets a scholarship to a better college.

She ignores God's commands for purity, then finds the love of her life and marries while you're still single.

He bad-mouths the boss and cuts corners at work. And guess who gets the promotion at your expense?

I do not think that a woman who has premarital sex is wicked and I certainly don't think that not being physical pure is equal to cheating on tests or cutting corners at work. I also don't think that bad mouthing the boss should be considered wicked either. Maybe I define wickedness differently. To me, wickedness involves hurting people on purpose or not thinking about others before you act.

Because he used the pronoun, she, this seems to be playing into the extremist obsession with female purity. The title of the article is "Don't Sweat the Wicked." so it does show his attitude toward women. Considering that his brothers were the ones who created the offensive Modesty Survey, this really shouldn't be a surprise.

oshharris.com/2014/02/dont_fret_the_wicked.php

[Georgiana]

To be fair, he can't use "she" for the examples about college and work because women are not encouraged to do either. He was probably trying to throw in an example for the ladies, and since pre-married fundy girl life is all about purity (and post married all about babies), that's basically all he had to work with.

[doggie]

why do Christians who use god to do anything they want justify any hate they choose keep their children in slavery practice no kindness or charity do so well money wise or tv wise?

[debrand]

To be fair, he can't use "she" for the examples about college and work because women are not encouraged to do either. He was probably trying to throw in an example for the ladies, and since pre-married fundy girl life is all about purity (and post married all about babies), that's basically all he had to work with.

Good point. I hadn't even considered that fundie women frown on women working outside the home.

I wonder if some fundie girls are noticing that sitting around waiting for Prince Charming to drop into their laps doesn't work for many of them? Considering that he wrote a book that played a part in creating the modern courtship movement, it wouldn't surprise me if he has heard from some dissatisfied single women.

There is nothing wrong with waiting for marriage to have sex but it seems pretty silly to tell women that they can't flirt or let their romantic interest know that they are attracted to them

[debrand]

Sorry. Here is the link

joshharris.com/2014/02/dont_fret_the_wicked.php

[kpmom]

What's interesting about the purity example is his wife reportedly has a "past".

I'm not sure of all the details, but I read that he discusses it in the book he wrote about meeting and eventually marrying her. Boy Meets Girl, I think it's called.

[mirele]

Oh Josh Harris needs to shut the f*** up right now. He is in absolutely NO position to be lecturing anyone about anything.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/follo ... ce-119992/

Harris wants to take a leave of absence because, well, the testimony of one of the former assistant pastors (that'd be Grant Layman, brother-in-law of former head pastor C.J. Mahaney) knew that youth leader Nate Morales was molesting kids in the late 1980s. Layman testified that he knew about the abuse as early as 1992 AND DID NOT CALL THE COPS.

Here's the story about Layman's testimony:

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/05/na ... 03128.html

Here's the story about Morales' conviction.

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/05/na ... 03175.html

Morales was apparently convicted again today in a separate trial on separate felony charges.

There's a lot, lot more I'm not even mentioning here...there's been a lot of fallout from this trial, but nobody has resigned and nobody has taken responsibility...yet.

[slh12280]

On the purity issue part of me thinks that they are jealous of people that get to go out there and experience life. They are tired to sitting at home waiting so they wail about all the "sluts." Then they veil this as righteousness. Maybe if they got out there even without having premarital sex they could get married too but they insist on this restrictive emotional purity nonsense too. Anyway, who said doing the right thing always led to a good life. Sorry life isn't fair.

[louisa05]

This is not even about the examples he gives.

What this is really about is the completely flawed theology that they teach. It has two parts that go like this:

1. If you follow all the rules we tell you make a good Christian, you will be healthy, happy and possibly even wealthy.

2. People out in "the world" don't follow these rules and that is why they are all miserable. (This is also a key to evangelization...we must go find them and tell them how to be healthy and happy and rich like us and they will all be so jealous of us that they are just waiting for us to tell them).

Now since most of us here have more than half a brain, we all know it doesn't work this way. There is no magic formula that makes you have everything you want and always be happy. So when number one doesn't work, people begin to doubt. And then they notice that number two is not true either and they start asking serious questions. That is what Harris is so clumsily trying to address.

The explanation I have always heard in the world of evangelical crazy that I worked in was even more bizarre than Harris's answer. It essentially was that the poor lost people who seem happy are not. They just are unaware of their unhappiness and soon enough they will realize how unhappy they are and we will be there to tell them why. In the mean time, if we have the chance, we should probably tell them that they are unhappy to speed up the process. And make sure that we always look happy and don't mention that we are busy worrying about the length of the neighbor's running shorts and feeling guilty because our toe nail polish may not be a godly color. They would get the wrong idea.

[debrand]

patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/10/what-i-learned-from-joshua-harris.html

Here is another site that quotes from Harris's book. What a immature view he has of human sexulity and relationships. Both my husband and I dated a lot before we met. Our pasts created who we were when we first met. I fell in love with my husband based on who he was at the moment that I met him and past relationships played a part in making him who he was.

I would like to know how fundies define the word, heart. Fundies make it sound like they are discussing a physical part of a person that is literally lost forever instead of emotions that can grow and change over time. I also think that it is insanity to expect that your spouse owed your faithfulness before they knew you.

It was finally here. Anna’s wedding day, the day she had dreamed about and planned for months. The small, picturesque church was crowded with friends and family.

Sunlight poured through the stained-glass windows, and the gentle music of a string quartet filled the air. Anna walked down the aisle toward David. Joy surged within her. This was the moment for which she had waited so long. He gently took her hand, and theyturned toward the altar.

But as the minister began to lead Anna and David through theirvows, the unthinkable happened. A girl stood up in the middle of the congregation, walked quietly to the altar, and took David’s other hand. Another girl approached and stood next to the first, followedby another. Soon, a chain of six girls stood by him as he repeated hisvows to Anna.

Anna felt her lip begin to quiver as tears welled up in her eyes. “Is this some kind of joke?†she whispered to David.

“I’m…I’m sorry, Anna,†he said, staring at the floor.

“Who are these girls, David? What is going on?†she gasped.

“They’re girls from my past,†he answered sadly. “Anna, they don’t mean anything to me now…but I’ve given part of my heart to each of them.â€

“I thought your heart was mine,†she said.

“It is, it is,†he pleaded. “Everything that’s left is yours.†A tear rolled down Anna’s cheek. Then she woke up.

Anna told me about her dream in a letter. “When I awoke I felt so betrayed,†she wrote. “But then I was struck with these sickening thoughts: How many men could line up next to me on my wedding day? How many times have I given my heart away in short-term relationships? Will I have anything left to give my husband?â€

[Hane]

debrand, that anecdote makes me sick with anger. I'm glad that Josh Harris wasn't at my daughter's wedding: former boyfriends and girlfriends of the couple were invited, and no bloodbath or weeping guilt ensued.

Reminds me of a family anecdote:

• Cousin A was a Certified Virgin when she got married, and wound up living in a mansion.
  
• Cousin B was a Slutty McSlutpants before she got married, and wound up living in a mansion.
  
• Cousin C was a Certified Virgin when she got married, and wound up divorced, unemployed, broke, and with a baby at 26.
  
• Cousin D was a Slutty McSlutpants when she got married, and wound up divorced, unemployed, broke, and with two babies at 26.

Fast-forward a few decades: All four cousins are divorced. Cousin A's husband will be living out his twilight years in a federal pen for fraud.

What made the biggest difference in each woman's varying success? Education, career skills, and a strong sense of autonomy. Her sexual history was irrelevant.

[dawbs]

that story is so disturbing.

How much of my heart does my mom have? or my sister? Or do only boyfriends take pieces?

And if I give EVERY piece of my heart to a boy, and that boy turns out to be an assferret who divorces me, that would mean I have NO heart afterwards...because he had 100% of it.

Or if that boy ends up becoming dead, and I'm widowed--I've given him 100% of my heart so I have 0% to give and should never remarry?

The 'logic' crumbles awfully fast.

[nokidsmom]

On the purity issue part of me thinks that they are jealous of people that get to go out there and experience life. They are tired to sitting at home waiting so they wail about all the "sluts." Then they veil this as righteousness. Maybe if they got out there even without having premarital sex they could get married too but they insist on this restrictive emotional purity nonsense too. Anyway, who said doing the right thing always led to a good life. Sorry life isn't fair.

To the bolded: exactly this. It's not enough to be physically pure but one has to be emotionally pure, which to my mind, even rules out having a crush or a non-physical dating relationship. Which is pretty tame stuff to my mind but it's considered bad. But that people can't even experience life on this innocent level really boggles my mind.

[Joan of Snarc]

"...they don’t mean anything to me now…but I’ve given part of my heart to each of them.â€

This makes no goddamn sense, fundies. If they don't mean anything to you then they don't have part of your heart.

I can't believe there's a whole segment of the population that buys into this nonsense.

:roll:

[FJismyheadship]

I have the book boy meets girl or whatever its called. When I find it I will look through it and see if I can find his lurve story with shannon

[DGayle]

Of course it's a girl who has sex that's bad. I want these fundies to start answering for why boys don't have this purity emphasis. If they're having sex, they're making a girl "sin," but only she's spoiled good....

[Trynn]

Of course it's a girl who has sex that's bad. I want these fundies to start answering for why boys don't have this purity emphasis. If they're having sex, they're making a girl "sin," but only she's spoiled good....

Exact. One time during a Q and A session about boys and modesty or whatever a girl (it was an all female thing) asked why there was so much emphasis on female modesty as opposed to male modesty. It was brought up that males were never told to pull their pants up, why was this?

I eagerly awaited the answe, since I'd been wondering this myself (despite the fact that I'd been zoned out half he time because his was summer camp and this session was preventing me from riding horses)

I'll never forget the response:

Lady: girls, have you read the secret keeper? *pulls out book and holds it up* it's such a great book all about how to be modest...."

I was crushed. Someone had asked a legit question and gotten a distraction as a response. The secret keeper, which I have read, is only about female modesty.

It was then that I lost respect for the only female Adventist pastor in obits. At the time, who wasn't be one to say it, but neither did she present a better Answer, and was nodding along in agreement.

I was angry, and just wanted to go ride horses already.

[hoipolloi]

I have the book boy meets girl or whatever its called. When I find it I will look through it and see if I can find his lurve story with shannon

At least two of the poster couples in Boy Meets Girl are divorced. The better known of the two are Sam & Bethany Torode (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/09/us/09beliefs.html). The other couple were related to SGM A-listers.

She now blogs as Bethany Patchin and had this to say about the success of the purity shtick in her marriage to Torode (bethanypatchin.weebly.com/1/post/2014/03/when-you-live-in-fear-your-fears-come-true.html):

It might be some form of evolutionary human nature to create rules out of fear, but it rarely leads to the ends one wishes for. Case in point: I joined the abstinence movement as a teenager. This movement is meant to protect kids from harmful sexual experiences at a young age. I was so afraid of sex that - guess what! - I ended up with a sexually abusive Christian spouse. Too much protection of innocence can lead to easier victimization.(I don't blame my parents for this - they did the best they could with what they had, and their motivations were good.)

[DGayle]

Exact. One time during a Q and A session about boys and modesty or whatever a girl (it was an all female thing) asked why there was so much emphasis on female modesty as opposed to male modesty. It was brought up that males were never told to pull their pants up, why was this?

I eagerly awaited the answe, since I'd been wondering this myself (despite the fact that I'd been zoned out half he time because his was summer camp and this session was preventing me from riding horses)

I'll never forget the response:

Lady: girls, have you read the secret keeper? *pulls out book and holds it up* it's such a great book all about how to be modest...."

I was crushed. Someone had asked a legit question and gotten a distraction as a response. The secret keeper, which I have read, is only about female modesty.

It was then that I lost respect for the only female Adventist pastor in obits. At the time, who wasn't be one to say it, but neither did she present a better Answer, and was nodding along in agreement.

I was angry, and just wanted to go ride horses already.

That's the sort of answer I'd expect. Hypocrisy.

[paintergurl]

Has anyone ever read the courtship story called 'The Jokes On Me' on a website named Commandments of Men? It is a long story from the point of view of a Christian man, unfamiliar with the patriarchy movement, who tragically falls in love with a young woman very much enmeshed in the cult of Gothard.

The story is a few years old, but it illustrates the difficulty, the near impossibility, of true love thriving within the hypocritical and soul-crushing courtship model.

[bea]

Why do these people persist in thinking every person only has a finite amount of love to give? I don't love my younger child just because I had a kid already when she was born. Fundies seem to understand THAT, at least, so why don't they see that you don't "lose" pieces of yourself that you will NEVER EVER EVER GET BACK OMG when you love someone in a romantic/sexual/non-platonic fashion?

I had three male sexual partners before I met my husband at 18 (it was a small town; sex was kind of all there was to do - we had VD rates like a third world country). My husband, 19 when we met, was a virgin. He was kind of glad I knew what I was doing, to be honest.

Almost 25 years later, I can honestly say that the number of sexual partners I had before him has never come up. Not in a fight, not in discussion, just.....it's not important.

Personally, I think the "emotional purity" bullshit is mostly so that these kids are so clueless that they think meeting someone who doesn't physically repulse you means God wants you to marry them. Makes the parent matchmaking WAY easier if the hearts have been so "well-guarded" that they have no idea what attraction feels like.

[RosyDaisy]

On his site, Josh Harris attempts to answer a question that lots of people have asked. Why do some people succeed even if they act in unethical ways. His answer is that in the after life it will all work out

However the examples that he uses of wicked behavior are not equal

I do not think that a woman who has premarital sex is wicked and I certainly don't think that not being physical pure is equal to cheating on tests or cutting corners at work. I also don't think that bad mouthing the boss should be considered wicked either. Maybe I define wickedness differently. To me, wickedness involves hurting people on purpose or not thinking about others before you act.

Because he used the pronoun, she, this seems to be playing into the extremist obsession with female purity. The title of the article is "Don't Sweat the Wicked." so it does show his attitude toward women. Considering that his brothers were the ones who created the offensive Modesty Survey, this really shouldn't be a surprise.

joshharris.com/2014/02/dont_fret_the_wicked.php

That's just Josh's fundie way of saying Karma's a bitch. Just remember Josh, that goes both ways. Something tells me you got a whole bunch of it coming your way.

Oh, and the leave of absence tells me he knows exactly what was going on and chose to ignore it and was probably guilty of something related to this church scandal. Sound familiar?

[thoughtful]

So, in Josh's warped fundie brain, woman having sex = man breaking law. OK. :roll:

that story is so disturbing.

How much of my heart does my mom have? or my sister? Or do only boyfriends take pieces?

And if I give EVERY piece of my heart to a boy, and that boy turns out to be an assferret who divorces me, that would mean I have NO heart afterwards...because he had 100% of it.

Or if that boy ends up becoming dead, and I'm widowed--I've given him 100% of my heart so I have 0% to give and should never remarry?

The 'logic' crumbles awfully fast.

I was once worried about my Mom being able to love me enough, because she also loved other family members. She reassured me that loving one person didn't take away from loving another.

Of course, I was five years old at the time. What would drive an adult to think this way is beyond me.

[debrand]

In Josh Harris' world ,little girls and teenagers have to feel guilty if they giggle with their friends about some cute looking guy. That is very sad.

[polecat]

On his site, Josh Harris attempts to answer a question that lots of people have asked. Why do some people succeed even if they act in unethical ways. His answer is that in the after life it will all work out

However the examples that he uses of wicked behavior are not equal

I do not think that a woman who has premarital sex is wicked and I certainly don't think that not being physical pure is equal to cheating on tests or cutting corners at work. I also don't think that bad mouthing the boss should be considered wicked either. Maybe I define wickedness differently. To me, wickedness involves hurting people on purpose or not thinking about others before you act.

Because he used the pronoun, she, this seems to be playing into the extremist obsession with female purity. The title of the article is "Don't Sweat the Wicked." so it does show his attitude toward women. Considering that his brothers were the ones who created the offensive Modesty Survey, this really shouldn't be a surprise.

oshharris.com/2014/02/dont_fret_the_wicked.php

You know, as a fundy girl growing up, I was given a whole list of things that I was supposed to do in order to have my happily ever after. I can see lots of teens and young women in fundyville looking at the woman who did everything "wrong" and still found Mr. Right (or Ms. Right) and feeling envious.