Two Popes and One Halo - Or a Saint He Ain't

[Ave Maria]

“All life has inestimable value even the weakest and most vulnerable, the sick, the old, the unborn and the poor, are masterpieces of God’s creation, made in his own image, destined to live forever, and deserving of the utmost reverence and respect.â€

Pope Francis. So. Against abortion, plus the poor are the masterpieces of God's creation, and all this evil socialist who fight poverty are bullshit because God wants poor to be poor and it's soooooooooooo good to be poor. SEriously. This kind of poverty worship remember me this :

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions (Marx)

Just for my own understanding -- are you a Marxist? I don't mean to sound accusatory or bashing by that -- just do you consider yourself a Socialist, Marxist, or Communist?

[theologygeek]

I've known enough people who have attended their universities to not want to. :)

I know the kind. Not my cup of tea. I'd rather hang with a Jesuit in a soup kitchen than hang with the arm chair quarterbacks who criticize them from their perch on the couch.

[Ave Maria]

I know the kind. Not my cup of tea. I'd rather hang with a Jesuit in a soup kitchen than hang with the arm chair quarterbacks who criticize them from their perch on the couch.

Not all (or even most) of their grads that I know are critical of them. It's more a case of judging the tree by its fruit.

[Megan]

I like Pope Francis (and John XXIII, who also was known for wandering out of the Vatican to meet with everyday people and the poor). The Pope is a very visible figure. His giving up the trappings of the modern papacy (because, face it, the fanciful traditions he's throwing off were not present in the early church) is good, in my opinion, specifically BECAUSE it is visible. The Pope is imitated, he is representative. His behaviors are an example to Catholics everywhere so his move towards a more simplistic style of life is a signal to everyone that people should reconsider their consumerism and greed.

What is "showy" to some is, in my opinion, demonstrative. He is walking the walk. To speak of simplicity and not live it would be the hypocritical stance.

[theologygeek]

Not all (or even most) of their grads that I know are critical of them. It's more a case of judging the tree by its fruit.

Questioning the fruits of a Jesuit is hilarious. It's evident that you don't know anything about them from your comments. They are helping the sick and the poor all over the world.

[mockingbird]

I gotta admit I went to a Jesuit college :lol: Part of what attracted me to it was the focus on service/volunteering. I'm Catholic but went to a public high school and wasn't really shopping for a Catholic college in particular. I agree that you should meet/work with people in the order before judging them. There are plenty of self-righteous recent college grads out there (I might be one of them, who knows) but they don't represent the Jesuits and would probably be like that whether or not they had gone to a Jesuit college. It's not fair to judge before you have any experience.

I did not interact as much with the priests as others but I had a good impression. Most were directly involved with service and with the students and were very welcoming. In fact I knew a lot of people who were not Catholic, but picked the school because they liked the nonjudgmental atmosphere even compared to public (secular) schools. I took one class with a Jesuit, about Augustine, and he really encouraged us to think for ourselves about the readings, not just parrot scholars' interpretations or the religious party line. My friends who went to Catholic high schools (Jesuit and Franciscan) reported similar experiences.

I think there was some hypocrisy going on with the Jesuits at my school too. For example our president (who was a Jesuit) lived a pretty lavish life, and I didn't think that meshed with the mission of the school and personal involvement of other members of his order (like the professors/church priests being involved in service) even though they don't take a vow of poverty. Our school also came out pretty harsh against contraception whenever the argument for getting an exemption from the ACA started and I would bet money that was to save their chance at Church funding and not a reflection of the personal feelings of most priests there.

Speaking only about my experiences with the Greek Orthodox hierarchy-the ones that keep every bit of luxury because it is their historic and traditional due are to me the ones who have the LEAST credibility in explaining and living Christianity. I WANT the patriarch on the friggin bus so he can understand how those he would presume to teach their Christian duty really live. Forget one lousy salary for a driver, put that money so that the children of the poor can eat while they get Masters and PhDs and those people will do the job creation, not the Princes of the Church.

The Apostles were poor. Every last one of them. I do not expect their modern successors to live in destitution, but living in palaces and Greek villas is GROSS. So I really applaud a Pope Francis or an Archbishop Anastasios of Albania for taking a look at the luxury with a critical eye and not just treating it as their historic right.

This.

It is unfortunate the driver was out of a job and I think a kind thing to do would have been to privately assist any staff who were out of jobs. I'm not sure if that happened and I don't think the public needs to know, but it would help with the probably unintended consequences of such an act.

Overall, however, I see no reason for there to be so much pomp and money surrounding the pope and the cardinals. They should be setting an example of humility and service. And that plays into the suspected corruption in the church/Vatican Bank, and past problems with corruption and abuse of power. Somebody had to make the first move. But I think if in the long run other popes follow his lead and the church's money goes more towards providing services than supporting indulgent lifestyles for higher-up officials we will be MUCH better off.

Also, I do appreciate that he tries to make himself seem more approachable; in addition to what AreteJo said, I think that is going to be more effective at gaining members and keeping people loyal to the church. I don't think that alone is enough; I would like to see Francis follow through on things like his Vatican Bank audits and reforming the way the church deals with sexual abuse. That will probably take some time.

[ndmomma]

I've known enough people who have attended their universities to not want to. :)

I was confirmed by a Jesuit, all my priests are Jesuits, and my husband is a theologian at a Jesuit university. I know Jesuits, and I find this comment ridiculous.

[Ave Maria]

Questioning the fruits of a Jesuit is hilarious. It's evident that you don't know anything about them from your comments. They are helping the sick and the poor all over the world.

But are they bringing the sick and poor into the Church? Are they helping their souls, or merely their bodies?

And just how successful have they been against Protestantism, which was their reason for being founded?

There's an old joke that illustrates this:

Two men considering a religious vocation were having a conversation. “What is similar about the Jesuit and Dominican Orders? †the one asked.

The second replied, “Well, they were both founded by Spaniards — St. Dominic for the Dominicans, and St. Ignatius of Loyola for the Jesuits. They were also both founded to combat heresy — the Dominicans to fight the Albigensians, and the Jesuits to fight the Protestants.â€

“What is different about the Jesuit and Dominican Orders?â€

“Met any Albigensians lately?â€

[theologygeek]

But are they bringing the sick and poor into the Church? Are they helping their souls, or merely their bodies?

And just how successful have they been against Protestantism, which was their reason for being founded?

There's an old joke that illustrates this:

Two men considering a religious vocation were having a conversation. “What is similar about the Jesuit and Dominican Orders? †the one asked.

The second replied, “Well, they were both founded by Spaniards — St. Dominic for the Dominicans, and St. Ignatius of Loyola for the Jesuits. They were also both founded to combat heresy — the Dominicans to fight the Albigensians, and the Jesuits to fight the Protestants.â€

“What is different about the Jesuit and Dominican Orders?â€

“Met any Albigensians lately?â€

Educate yourself so you don't continue to make ignorant statements. Yes, the Jesuits spread the word, and no, they were not founded to combat Protestantism. The Jesuits were founded before Counter Reformation-not because of.

[Hane]

You should spend some time with the Jesuits before making such odd comments.

Ave Maria, I gotta agree to disagree with you here. In many ways, Jesus WAS a social worker. And I find Pope Francis's simple way of life a breath of fresh air.

[Marianne]

Just for my own understanding -- are you a Marxist? I don't mean to sound accusatory or bashing by that -- just do you consider yourself a Socialist, Marxist, or Communist?

Moderate Marxist. I'm a member of the left-front. In a normal word, it would be considered as a socialist party, but because in my country, there's no socialist party, it's considered as kind of communist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Front_(France)#Ideology) . But the word "communist/socialist" have not the same meaning here and in the US. I don't worship URSS ;)

[Ave Maria]

Moderate Marxist. I'm a member of the left-front. In a normal word, it would be considered as a socialist party, but because in my country, there's no socialist party, it's considered as kind of communist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Front_(France)#Ideology) . But the word "communist/socialist" have not the same meaning here and in the US. I don't worship URSS ;)

Oh, I understand you probably aren't a Marxist-Leninist. :) I've met Italian Communists before during my stay there -- and they're different from what we think of in the US being that we're more familiar with Eastern European Communism.

That said, there's still a lot there I wouldn't agree with (okay, just about everything), especially the concept of a "maximum wage."

[Ave Maria]

Educate yourself so you don't continue to make ignorant statements. Yes, the Jesuits spread the word, and no, they were not founded to combat Protestantism. The Jesuits were founded before Counter Reformation-not because of.

Interesting -- yet another flaw in my post-Vatican II Catholic education at Jesus is a Social Worker High. :P

[Ave Maria]

Ave Maria, I gotta agree to disagree with you here. In many ways, Jesus WAS a social worker. And I find Pope Francis's simple way of life a breath of fresh air.

While Christ did a lot of temporal good, his primary focus wasn't on the temporal realm, which is where so much of the modern church goes astray. Not that it's WRONG to help the poor or help others in general, but it isn't the primary purpose of the Church.

Granted, I got burned by both the social justice mentality in a post-Vatican II Catholic school -- the type where the teachers are just a hair to the right of socialism and hate anyone they perceive as being from a higher socio-economic class than they are. Anything that happened to a student who was perceived as wealthy was met with distain and cruelty. There was little discussion of prayer, spirituality, or sin. I graduated with an impressive amount of service hours and a starving soul.

[mockingbird]

Interesting -- yet another flaw in my post-Vatican II Catholic education at Jesus is a Social Worker High. :P

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Jesus

Ignatius of Loyola founded the society after being wounded in battle and experiencing a religious conversion. He composed the Spiritual Exercises to help others follow the teachings of Jesus Christ....

In fulfilling the mission of the "Formula of the Institute of the Society", the first Jesuits concentrated on a few key activities. First, they founded schools throughout Europe. Jesuit teachers were rigorously trained in both classical studies and theology, and their schools reflected this. Second, they sent out missionaries across the globe to evangelize those peoples who had not yet heard the Gospel, founding missions in widely diverse regions, such as modern-day Paraguay, Japan, Ontario, and Ethiopia. Finally, though not initially formed for the purpose, they aimed to stop Protestantism from spreading and to preserve communion with Rome and the successor of Peter. The zeal of the Jesuits overcame the drift toward Protestantism in Poland-Lithuania and southern Germany.

So it was a part of their early work but not really their sole purpose.

With regards to your other post - yeah, I can understand why that would turn you off. There's a place in social justice for recognizing and trying to dismantle privilege but the point is to be accepting and kind to all types of people so being disdainful of rich students kind-of defeats the mission! And again I think social justice in the church is backed up by scripture so there should be prayer/spirituality involved in some way. (For the volunteers - I think for the people you are serving, making participation in religious activities a requirement, even an implied one, to receive services is manipulative.) FWIW, I don't think that is reflective of the church as a whole today, or of the various Catholic schools my friends/family and I attended. (For example, at my college all service opportunities required you to do some sort of reflection. For just weekly volunteer activities that was more of a problem debriefing type thing but for the longer service trips it was more religion-based, almost like a retreat-like component. We also had Bible study groups, discernment groups, adoration, retreats, theology class requirements, etc. I felt like there were ample opportunities for both service and spiritual growth. I got out of the basic theology class due to a program I was in and if I had had more time, I would've taken more theology classes because I hadn't since elementary school and liked the one class I did take, so I think I would've benefitted from taking more.)

"While Christ did a lot of temporal good, his primary focus wasn't on the temporal realm, which is where so much of the modern church goes astray. Not that it's WRONG to help the poor or help others in general, but it isn't the primary purpose of the Church."

Interesting perspective! I have always seen it more that Jesus' primary purpose was to bring God's message and redemption to the people, but that a lot of that message was to clarify what God wanted in regards to how society was evolving at the time, and correct the hypocrisy in the church/refocus the church away from legalism (Pharisees) and more towards just following/demonstrating general morals which was very temporal-focused. But kind-of both I guess.

[Marianne]

If you want to learn about jesuits, read this : http://www.amazon.fr/Jesuits-A-Multibio ... 1887178600 . Wonderfull book !

When we ask something to our philosophy teacher, and he didn't want to answer, it was "I was in school with the jesuits, they teach me to never reply to questions" :lol:

[Arete]

When John the Baptist declared "the Kingdom of God is at hand", he meant the establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth, not just in Heaven. Jesus taught the prayer "let your Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven". Jesus gave explicit and detailed instructions on how to treat the poor, the sick, those in jail, and those marginalized by society. He specifically stated that you had no share in Eternal life without this sort of "social work". I'm never understood how Christians can sneer at other Christians doing "social work" as something lesser. We are not fundementalist Protestants. We don't believe we are doomed to destroy the world so why bother. We are commanded to go out and do our part to make the world better, as well as pray, fast, and contemplate to grow spiritually. To go out and tell people pray harder and go to Liturgy but not do anything to fight for temporal justice moves no one and nothing closer to the Kingdom of God.

[Ave Maria]

When John the Baptist declared "the Kingdom of God is at hand", he meant the establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth, not just in Heaven. Jesus taught the prayer "let your Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven". Jesus gave explicit and detailed instructions on how to treat the poor, the sick, those in jail, and those marginalized by society. He specifically stated that you had no share in Eternal life without this sort of "social work". I'm never understood how Christians can sneer at other Christians doing "social work" as something lesser. We are not fundementalist Protestants. We don't believe we are doomed to destroy the world so why bother. We are commanded to go out and do our part to make the world better, as well as pray, fast, and contemplate to grow spiritually. To go out and tell people pray harder and go to Liturgy but not do anything to fight for temporal justice moves no one and nothing closer to the Kingdom of God.

I never said people SHOULDN'T help others. However, I firmly believe that it must come from a strong spiritual foundation first, for a whole host of reasons. Otherwise, it is too easy to get hung up in the pride of "I do more than him" or "I'm holier than her because I put in 10 more hours at the soup kitchen." People -- including myself -- get prideful about things like how many service hours they did, especially when service hours are tracked, graded, and mandated by one's school. We had to do a bunch to graduate, etc -- yet things like the Rosary and Mass attendance weren't a hard requirement.

I'm pretty conflicted on schools requiring service, actually. Yes, it teaches the importance of it, and helps form a habit. But is it really authentic service when it is required? Is it fully to a person's spiritual benefit when they are doing good in order to "do good" on their report card or college applications? I think how you act when no one is looking, or when you see one of the nerds fall down the stairs has a lot more to do with your character than how many hours you can brag about having volunteered. The keeping track, in and of itself, sends a bad message and goes against the very sprit of being a volunteer, IMO.

I don't think it needs to be an either/or proposition, of course (unless one is in a purely contemplative religious order), but I do think that good works need a good foundation.

[theologygeek]

When John the Baptist declared "the Kingdom of God is at hand", he meant the establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth, not just in Heaven. Jesus taught the prayer "let your Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven". Jesus gave explicit and detailed instructions on how to treat the poor, the sick, those in jail, and those marginalized by society. He specifically stated that you had no share in Eternal life without this sort of "social work". I'm never understood how Christians can sneer at other Christians doing "social work" as something lesser. We are not fundementalist Protestants. We don't believe we are doomed to destroy the world so why bother. We are commanded to go out and do our part to make the world better, as well as pray, fast, and contemplate to grow spiritually. To go out and tell people pray harder and go to Liturgy but not do anything to fight for temporal justice moves no one and nothing closer to the Kingdom of God.

+1

[mockingbird]

I never said people SHOULDN'T help others. However, I firmly believe that it must come from a strong spiritual foundation first, for a whole host of reasons. Otherwise, it is too easy to get hung up in the pride of "I do more than him" or "I'm holier than her because I put in 10 more hours at the soup kitchen." People -- including myself -- get prideful about things like how many service hours they did, especially when service hours are tracked, graded, and mandated by one's school. We had to do a bunch to graduate, etc -- yet things like the Rosary and Mass attendance weren't a hard requirement.

I'm pretty conflicted on schools requiring service, actually. Yes, it teaches the importance of it, and helps form a habit. But is it really authentic service when it is required? Is it fully to a person's spiritual benefit when they are doing good in order to "do good" on their report card or college applications? I think how you act when no one is looking, or when you see one of the nerds fall down the stairs has a lot more to do with your character than how many hours you can brag about having volunteered. The keeping track, in and of itself, sends a bad message and goes against the very sprit of being a volunteer, IMO.

I don't think it needs to be an either/or proposition, of course (unless one is in a purely contemplative religious order), but I do think that good works need a good foundation.

Sure, I can agree you should have a good spiritual (or moral) background behind doing service, or behind teaching your kids to volunteer.

I don't think the primary purpose of service/volunteering is for the volunteer's "spiritual benefit" though - I think it's to help other people and benefit THEM. Any benefits you get from performing the service are secondary IMO. To me the whole purpose of doing service is getting outside yourself and not making it about yourself! And so, while the people who are being served might benefit slightly more by someone who is altruistically-motivated and really believes in the work they are doing, if someone is there just to fulfill hours but is doing everything they are supposed to/working to a good standard, then most of the time I tend to think that is better than those people not being helped at all.

All the Catholic elementary through high schools I have experience with (went to a Catholic elementary and there were a few others in the area friends went to, and lots of my friends went to Catholic high school) required mass attendance, at school. I don't see how they could require attendance outside of school as a lot of the time that is outside the student's control and there were often a lot of non-Catholic kids in attendance. Though I can see how if they require out-of-school service hours it would make sense to require out-of-school mass attendance. I think most tried to have opportunities to fulfill service hours through school/clubs (if they required service hours) in case you couldn't do them outside of school. I think you were generally expected to participate in prayers at school including the rosary but if a non-Catholic kid wasn't comfortable doing that nobody forced them. I'm not sure how that could be reliably tracked outside of school though? You could have a priest sign off on being at mass (and I think we had to do that for a certain number of masses to get confirmed now that I think about it but that's it) but it would be so easy for a parent to just sign off on the rosary without the kid really having done it... But then I think you run into the same problem!!! Is it really spiritual growth when you are just going to mass or saying a rosary because your school requires it? Again, I think something is better than nothing and agree with you about forming good habits, but to be fair I think you have to consider that question for required religious activities too.

My Catholic college did not require service (unless you were in a rare class that did a service project together) or mass attendance. Plenty of opportunities for both though. My med school actually does require service, and I love that because otherwise it would be easy to just forget about it because we are so busy, even though it's something I would want to do outside of it being required. I can definitely see how allowing people to compete over hours would be counterproductive and definitely think that would happen here. We don't get any extra credit or rewards for going over the required amount or having the most hours which I think is a good way to keep service as something altruistic.

[August]

I never said people SHOULDN'T help others. However, I firmly believe that it must come from a strong spiritual foundation first, for a whole host of reasons. Otherwise, it is too easy to get hung up in the pride of "I do more than him" or "I'm holier than her because I put in 10 more hours at the soup kitchen." People -- including myself -- get prideful about things like how many service hours they did, especially when service hours are tracked, graded, and mandated by one's school. We had to do a bunch to graduate, etc -- yet things like the Rosary and Mass attendance weren't a hard requirement.

I'm pretty conflicted on schools requiring service, actually. Yes, it teaches the importance of it, and helps form a habit. But is it really authentic service when it is required? Is it fully to a person's spiritual benefit when they are doing good in order to "do good" on their report card or college applications? I think how you act when no one is looking, or when you see one of the nerds fall down the stairs has a lot more to do with your character than how many hours you can brag about having volunteered. The keeping track, in and of itself, sends a bad message and goes against the very sprit of being a volunteer, IMO.

I don't think it needs to be an either/or proposition, of course (unless one is in a purely contemplative religious order), but I do think that good works need a good foundation.

This is a pretty fucked up POV. Doing good things for your own spiritual benefit is as bad as doing it for your own social benefit. Good things are worth doing because they're good. It's about you. It's about helping other people, making the world a etter place, making someone (whoisn't you) happier.

I'm actually gobsmacked. I know Christianity is fucked up, but to see people proudly admit toit is always shocking.

[Hane]

While Christ did a lot of temporal good, his primary focus wasn't on the temporal realm, which is where so much of the modern church goes astray. Not that it's WRONG to help the poor or help others in general, but it isn't the primary purpose of the Church.

Granted, I got burned by both the social justice mentality in a post-Vatican II Catholic school -- the type where the teachers are just a hair to the right of socialism and hate anyone they perceive as being from a higher socio-economic class than they are. Anything that happened to a student who was perceived as wealthy was met with distain and cruelty. There was little discussion of prayer, spirituality, or sin. I graduated with an impressive amount of service hours and a starving soul.

Proof again that our attitudes are forged, to a great extent, by our experiences. At my fairly advanced age, I'm more concerned with issues of social justice and welfare than with the status of other people's "souls," which I consider to be their own business and not mine.

ETA an anecdote from my (secular) college years, early '70s: I once mentioned to a classmate that I had my doubts about the perennial virginity of Mary and the physical resurrection of Christ. A guy who overheard me sputtered, "Then you have no business calling yourself a Catholic!" I was so taken aback that I didn't have the presence of mind to say, "I have just as much right as you do!" At that age, I wasn't yet aware of devoted Catholics' (lay, clergy, and theologians) history of dissent and debate.

[latraviata]

Proof again that our attitudes are forged, to a great extent, by our experiences. At my fairly advanced age, I'm more concerned with issues of social justice and welfare than with the status of other people's "souls," which I consider to be their own business and not mine.

ETA an anecdote from my (secular) college years, early '70s: I once mentioned to a classmate that I had my doubts about the perennial virginity of Mary and the physical resurrection of Christ. A guy who overheard me sputtered, "Then you have no business calling yourself a Catholic!" I was so taken aback that I didn't have the presence of mind to say, "I have just as much right as you do!" At that age, I wasn't yet aware of devoted Catholics' (lay, clergy, and theologians) history of dissent and debate.

Are you still a catholic?

[Hane]

Are you still a catholic?

No. My daughter, her husband, and I are Unitarian-Universalists (see this site

for info), although the rest of my family is Catholic. Several years ago, I decided that I couldn't in good conscience remain affiliated with a church when I disagreed so wholeheartedly with many of its essential teachings. For years, I had had problems with Church teachings on the equality of women, reproductive freedom, and marriage equality, and the overall rightward tilt of the Church. It felt hypocritical to remain when, after having tried so hard for years, I still couldn't embrace the dogma of the immaculate conception, the virgin birth, and the resurrection.

[ndmomma]

But are they bringing the sick and poor into the Church? Are they helping their souls, or merely their bodies?

And just how successful have they been against Protestantism, which was their reason for being founded?

There's an old joke that illustrates this:

Two men considering a religious vocation were having a conversation. “What is similar about the Jesuit and Dominican Orders? †the one asked.

The second replied, “Well, they were both founded by Spaniards — St. Dominic for the Dominicans, and St. Ignatius of Loyola for the Jesuits. They were also both founded to combat heresy — the Dominicans to fight the Albigensians, and the Jesuits to fight the Protestants.â€

“What is different about the Jesuit and Dominican Orders?â€

“Met any Albigensians lately?â€

I truly enjoy a good Jesuit joke as much as anyone else. This one is "meh". The Jesuits brought me out of my Protestant frustration and into the church, and they just baptized and confirmed 7 others at our small campus chapel last week. I'm about to go confess to a Jesuit in an hour. They care for souls, but they meet them where they are!