Two Popes and One Halo - Or a Saint He Ain't

[Palimpsest]

Catholic not Fundie, but I found this article interesting. http://nyti.ms/1rkVpmP

I'm cool with John XXIII. Liked the guy's focus on social justice and moving forward.

I'm much less cool with JPII who "ain't no saint." I also liked the description of Ratzie (Pope Benedict XVI) as "John Paul’s Rasputin and enforcer of the orthodoxy." :)

And I bloody loved the description of that fucked up enabler of child sexual abuse creep -- Bernard (asshole and Cardinal) Law!

[Marianne]

Don't ask me why, but I'm atheist and always loved Pope Benedict. I think it's because I don't like catholic who are "iiih, look at me, I'm against abortion, contraception, love, all, but I'm really modern !" No, you're not my dear. I hate John Paul II because Opus Dei, Regnum Christi, and so much.

I also hate John XXIII because I'm doing my thesis on history of the liturgy, and the new mass of 1962 sucks (and then, traditionnalist call it "traditionnal mass". HAHAHA. No). (really, I've nothing for or against John Paul II)

I think it sucks that the catholic church don't respect the law of canonisation. I hope it's the first ans last time that I agree with traditionnalist !

[Ave Maria]

Don't ask me why, but I'm atheist and always loved Pope Benedict. I think it's because I don't like catholic who are "iiih, look at me, I'm against abortion, contraception, love, all, but I'm really modern !" No, you're not my dear. I hate John Paul II because Opus Dei, Regnum Christi, and so much.

I also hate John XXIII because I'm doing my thesis on history of the liturgy, and the new mass of 1962 sucks (and then, traditionnalist call it "traditionnal mass". HAHAHA. No). (really, I've nothing for or against John Paul II)

I think it sucks that the catholic church don't respect the law of canonisation. I hope it's the first ans last time that I agree with traditionnalist !

It's not the last. I'm a Traditionalist, and I don't attend the 1962 Mass on Sunday. It's not as bad as the Novus Ordo, granted, but the Holy Week changes are just sad -- and brought about by the same liturgist who gave us the Novus Ordo. Our independent traditional parish proudly uses a pre-1962 missal.

[Marianne]

It's not the last. I'm a Traditionalist, and I don't attend the 1962 Mass on Sunday. It's not as bad as the Novus Ordo, granted, but the Holy Week changes are just sad -- and brought about by the same liturgist who gave us the Novus Ordo. Our independent traditional parish proudly uses a pre-1962 missal.

Ah, Bugnigni. One of the most cultivated and smart liturgist, in this time. Pie XII - who changed the Holy Week - hated liturgy. :roll:

Urg. I'm reading sedevacantist blog. There's people who think that Paul VI is alive :shock:

[Ave Maria]

Ah, Bugnigni. One of the most cultivated and smart liturgist, in this time. Pie XII - who changed the Holy Week - hated liturgy. :roll:

Urg. I'm reading sedevacantist blog. There's people who think that Paul VI is alive :shock:

Waaaah really? How old would he be?

Just for the record, I'm not a sedevacantist. Traditionalist, yes, but I do believe that Francis is a valid pope, just a bad one. (The over the top "I'm so humble, so worship me because I'm just like you" act makes me queasy as heck.)

[Marianne]

Waaaah really? How old would he be?

Just for the record, I'm not a sedevacantist. Traditionalist, yes, but I do believe that Francis is a valid pope, just a bad one. (The over the top "I'm so humble, so worship me because I'm just like you" act makes me queasy as heck.)

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread576777/pg1 (only link in english that I can find). Something like... more than 100 years ? Paul VI is alive, and John Paul I was murdered, everybody know.

Are you with the FSSPX or with Ecclesia Dei community ? (haha. I'm not a fan of Pope Francis, even if it's none of my business. In fact, I'm not a fan of how medias treat pope Francis.)

[August]

Don't ask me why, but I'm atheist and always loved Pope Benedict. I think it's because I don't like catholic who are "iiih, look at me, I'm against abortion, contraception, love, all, but I'm really modern !" No, you're not my dear. I hate John Paul II because Opus Dei, Regnum Christi, and so much.

I also hate John XXIII because I'm doing my thesis on history of the liturgy, and the new mass of 1962 sucks (and then, traditionnalist call it "traditionnal mass". HAHAHA. No). (really, I've nothing for or against John Paul II)

I think it sucks that the catholic church don't respect the law of canonisation. I hope it's the first ans last time that I agree with traditionnalist !

This song, written in honor of Benedict's visit to the UK sums up my opinion of him and all previous popes. I'm hopeful for Francis.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rTIorwtJbhE&feature=kp

[Georgiana]

Roman Catholic here.

I have always loved and admired John XXIII. I feel that the reforms of Vatican II redirected the Church in the correct direction, and while I have a degree in ancient languages/literature and a love of ancient traditions, texts, and ceremonies, my daily life is lived in my vernacular and I want my worship to be as well. There have been oppositions and disagreements with every major Church council, and I love and respect those who disagree. But many in the Roman Catholic Church feel the impacts of John XXIII's papacy in a positive way in their daily lives. Viva Vatican II!

JPII I have always disliked. I felt he brought too many of his personal grudges into the papacy and therefore used the power of the papacy to justify his own ends. His hatred of Communism caused him to grossly mishandle anything to do with China, endangering the 12 million Catholics in that country. Historical Background: the dominance of Western powers (esp English) in the late Qing forced China to allow an insane amount of "foreign protection" in terms of the law. This boiled down to the fact that no Christian could be apprehended or tried by Chinese Civil authorities (it's more complex than that, but that's how it played out). Naturally, people would commit crimes, and when they were jailed awaiting trial suddenly have a "conversion". They would then call for a priest, get baptized, and have to be set free. The Chinese did not kick Christianity out of their country for a time because they hate religion. They did it because religious authorities were literally using their vows as a shield to run open crime rings. And JPII sainted many of these people. How? He did not allow any Chinese eyewitness testimony regarding their character. And sometimes the Jesuit testimony goes missing too. Not sure how it was missing from the VATICAN library since it was in my university library, but you know.

[Georgiana]

I wanted to split up Benny because I have no opinion on him, but I do have a funny story.

So back when JPII passed and Benny was elected, I was attending Catholic high school. In honor of both of them, we were given "Pope Cards", basically a baseball card with their picture on the front and some background on them on the back (and maybe a prayer?). Very nice, right?

Well, you can't trust high schoolers with anything.

We started making other Pope Cards and then started dueling Popes like they were Pokemon/Yu Gi Oh/Magic cards. People started trading them. Eventually, the school got worried that playing a game where Popes used their "Pope Powers" to destroy other Popes was probably bad.

So in my Catholic school, Pope cards went the way of "lobster makeup" and were banned.

Thanks a lot, Benedict!

[Palimpsest]

This song, written in honor of Benedict's visit to the UK sums up my opinion of him and all previous popes. I'm hopeful for Francis.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rTIorwtJbhE&feature=kp

I absolutely love Tim Minchin but this link should probably have a NSFW warning because it contains what My Lady Bibliophile would call "language." :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Marianne]

I wanted to split up Benny because I have no opinion on him, but I do have a funny story.

So back when JPII passed and Benny was elected, I was attending Catholic high school. In honor of both of them, we were given "Pope Cards", basically a baseball card with their picture on the front and some background on them on the back (and maybe a prayer?). Very nice, right?

Well, you can't trust high schoolers with anything.

We started making other Pope Cards and then started dueling Popes like they were Pokemon/Yu Gi Oh/Magic cards. People started trading them. Eventually, the school got worried that playing a game where Popes used their "Pope Powers" to destroy other Popes was probably bad.

So in my Catholic school, Pope cards went the way of "lobster makeup" and were banned.

Thanks a lot, Benedict!

Oh My God... :lol:

I've win 175 € when Pope Francis got elected. I'm not catholic, so I don't have to be poor, no ?

[PennySycamore]

Roman Catholic here.

I have always loved and admired John XXIII. I feel that the reforms of Vatican II redirected the Church in the correct direction, and while I have a degree in ancient languages/literature and a love of ancient traditions, texts, and ceremonies, my daily life is lived in my vernacular and I want my worship to be as well. There have been oppositions and disagreements with every major Church council, and I love and respect those who disagree. But many in the Roman Catholic Church feel the impacts of John XXIII's papacy in a positive way in their daily lives. Viva Vatican II!

JPII I have always disliked. I felt he brought too many of his personal grudges into the papacy and therefore used the power of the papacy to justify his own ends. His hatred of Communism caused him to grossly mishandle anything to do with China, endangering the 12 million Catholics in that country. Historical Background: the dominance of Western powers (esp English) in the late Qing forced China to allow an insane amount of "foreign protection" in terms of the law. This boiled down to the fact that no Christian could be apprehended or tried by Chinese Civil authorities (it's more complex than that, but that's how it played out). Naturally, people would commit crimes, and when they were jailed awaiting trial suddenly have a "conversion". They would then call for a priest, get baptized, and have to be set free. The Chinese did not kick Christianity out of their country for a time because they hate religion. They did it because religious authorities were literally using their vows as a shield to run open crime rings. And JPII sainted many of these people. How? He did not allow any Chinese eyewitness testimony regarding their character. And sometimes the Jesuit testimony goes missing too. Not sure how it was missing from the VATICAN library since it was in my university library, but you know.

It's my understanding that the liturgy changes of Vatican II was really just a restoration of how the Mass was historically. The Mass used to be in the vernacular and the priest used to face the people rather than the back of the church.

One of the most beautiful Masses I ever attended was on a retreat around a picnic table on the shores of Lake Hartwell on the SC/Georgia line. That would never have happened pre-Vatican II.

[Marianne]

It's my understanding that the liturgy changes of Vatican II was really just a restoration of how the Mass was historically. The Mass used to be in the vernacular and the priest used to face the people rather than the back of the church.

One of the most beautiful Masses I ever attended was on a retreat around a picnic table on the shores of Lake Hartwell on the SC/Georgia line. That would never have happened pre-Vatican II.

Vatican II mass is not about latin or the priest face to the people of face to the tabernacle. You can say pre Vatican II mass in english or Vatican II mass in latin, it's not important. The important in liturgy is the text, and the text of the mass was invented, re-created. What I find funny in Vatican II mass is that according to the PGMR (the Missal), you have to say it in latin and face to the orient, with the possibility to tell it in vernacular, but the possibility became the standard. Vatican II is not a restoration, but a creation. If you want to restaure the mass, you have to take 13 people + 1 son of God and respect all the jewish tradition :lol:

I'm an atheist. In difficult time in my life, I've find pace attendind monastic mass (Vatican II in latin, gregorian). While studying gregorian for my thesis, it make me sad to see that the catholic parish don't sing gregorian, because it's something that I love above all, and I study how (who, when, etc...) gregorian became una "popular" song and not an elitist song, so hearing catholic priest "oh, yes, I can give you this 19th century antiphonal because here, nobody can sing gregorian" make me "mmm.. No ? You can sing gregorian, it's very simple."

I think that in the catholic church, everybody should have the choice, and for the moment, it's what I see in my city ! There's very modern mass, traditionnal mass, etc... :)

[Ave Maria]

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread576777/pg1 (only link in english that I can find). Something like... more than 100 years ? Paul VI is alive, and John Paul I was murdered, everybody know.

Are you with the FSSPX or with Ecclesia Dei community ? (haha. I'm not a fan of Pope Francis, even if it's none of my business. In fact, I'm not a fan of how medias treat pope Francis.)

Neither, though we are very sympathetic to the FSSPX and have attended their masses while traveling. Our parish is friendly with them as well and their bishops confirm the kids in our parish but we aren't officially affiliated with them.

[August]

I absolutely love Tim Minchin but this link should probably have a NSFW warning because it contains what My Lady Bibliophile would call "language." :lol: :lol: :lol:

Can anyone play youtube videos at work without headphones? If so, can I come and work there?

[theologygeek]

Just for the record, I'm not a sedevacantist. Traditionalist, yes, but I do believe that Francis is a valid pope, just a bad one. (The over the top "I'm so humble, so worship me because I'm just like you" act makes me queasy as heck.)

That's not an act. He's a Jesuit. That's how they are. Although they are not about self worship-far from it.

[Ave Maria]

That's not an act. He's a Jesuit. That's how they are. Although they are not about self worship-far from it.

But it's in a showy way -- it isn't just about being nice or approachable or something like that. It's about refusing historical and traditional details and trappings of the papacy, which is, in effect, saying "I know better than everyone else who came before me." Pius X was reportedly uncomfortable with luxury, etc, but he accepted it gratefully with humility -- and then slept on the floor pretty much in secret for penance. Being showy about ones humility or "Joe Xix Packness" is actually an act of pride. It bugs me when politicians do it, and it bugs me when Pope Francis does it. The whole "I'm a bishop but I ride the bus" is typical of it -- what that really amounts to is the former bishop's driver getting fired and being out of a job so Bishop Jose could look like one of the commonfolk.

I'm no fan of the modern day Jesuits, from what I see of them these days. Granted, I've never met one -- I'm personally familiar with diocesan and monastic priests. However, my second hand impression of them is that they are very concerned with social justice and other issues of this world more so than what is going on (actually going on, rather than false humbleness) in people's souls. A friend of mine describes it as the "Jesus is a social worker" phenomenon.

[Marianne]

But it's in a showy way -- it isn't just about being nice or approachable or something like that. It's about refusing historical and traditional details and trappings of the papacy, which is, in effect, saying "I know better than everyone else who came before me." Pius X was reportedly uncomfortable with luxury, etc, but he accepted it gratefully with humility -- and then slept on the floor pretty much in secret for penance. Being showy about ones humility or "Joe Xix Packness" is actually an act of pride. It bugs me when politicians do it, and it bugs me when Pope Francis does it. The whole "I'm a bishop but I ride the bus" is typical of it -- what that really amounts to is the former bishop's driver getting fired and being out of a job so Bishop Jose could look like one of the commonfolk.

I'm no fan of the modern day Jesuits, from what I see of them these days. Granted, I've never met one -- I'm personally familiar with diocesan and monastic priests. However, my second hand impression of them is that they are very concerned with social justice and other issues of this world more so than what is going on (actually going on, rather than false humbleness) in people's souls. A friend of mine describes it as the "Jesus is a social worker" phenomenon.

In my town, our bishop has, a driver, a cook and two maids, all with down syndrome or other disabilities. It is helping the poor. It is using its money unnecessarily. Put people out of work because "I want to do everything alone," that is selfishness. When you have money, give work to others.

I don't like the poverty worship in the catholic church, a la Mother Teresa and Pope Francis. There's only when you are rich and bourgeois that you can play to the poor. Because poverty is not beautifull and amazing. I've been poor, not eating for three days, sleeping in the streets, thinking about prostitution. And it was not good. And it was not beautifull and amazing and christ-like, but full of tears, suffering and horror. Now, I have monney. I give 30% of my salary for charity. I have a maid who was a jobless before. Poverty is something who have to be fight, not worshipping.

[Ave Maria]

In my town, our bishop has, a driver, a cook and two maids, all with down syndrome or other disabilities. It is helping the poor. It is using its money unnecessarily. Put people out of work because "I want to do everything alone," that is selfishness. When you have money, give work to others.

I don't like the poverty worship in the catholic church, a la Mother Teresa and Pope Francis. There's only when you are rich and bourgeois that you can play to the poor. Because poverty is not beautifull and amazing. I've been poor, not eating for three days, sleeping in the streets, thinking about prostitution. And it was not good. And it was not beautifull and amazing and christ-like, but full of tears, suffering and horror. Now, I have monney. I give 30% of my salary for charity. I have a maid who was a jobless before. Poverty is something who have to be fight, not worshipping.

I'm sorry you had to go through that. :(

Poverty in the monastic sense isn't poverty in the destitution sense, either, and people get confused about that. For a monastic priest or a group of nuns to have simple things without much adornment is fitting and proper -- but cardinals are "princes of the church" and their place is a bit different and the papacy is higher still. None of these people are or should be too poor to have food, however, those with a vow of poverty sometimes don't eat meat (or only on Sundays or major feasts) and don't have many of the nice little things that the rest of us take for granted. And if that penance and sacrifice is good for their soul so be it -- but it isn't about "I'm better at my vows than you" or being "humbler than thou."

I think it's good that your bishop helps those who might not otherwise be hired. That's fantastic. :) It surprises me how many otherwise sensible people don't understand that there are ways to spend money (even when you get nice things for yourself) and help other. I know someone who went to Mexico and didn't buy anything other than what was needed for herself because of the poverty being upsetting -- even going so far as not to buy souvenirs, etc. I always think the opposite -- buying something from a market stall where someone makes something by hand (just as an example) can be a way to help that person. It may not be as direct as donating to charity (and isn't a full replacement because some people are sick, etc and cannot work) but it helps prevent people from needing to rely on a charitable organization.

[theologygeek]

But it's in a showy way -- it isn't just about being nice or approachable or something like that. It's about refusing historical and traditional details and trappings of the papacy, which is, in effect, saying "I know better than everyone else who came before me." Pius X was reportedly uncomfortable with luxury, etc, but he accepted it gratefully with humility -- and then slept on the floor pretty much in secret for penance. Being showy about ones humility or "Joe Xix Packness" is actually an act of pride. It bugs me when politicians do it, and it bugs me when Pope Francis does it. The whole "I'm a bishop but I ride the bus" is typical of it -- what that really amounts to is the former bishop's driver getting fired and being out of a job so Bishop Jose could look like one of the commonfolk.

I'm no fan of the modern day Jesuits, from what I see of them these days. Granted, I've never met one -- I'm personally familiar with diocesan and monastic priests. However, my second hand impression of them is that they are very concerned with social justice and other issues of this world more so than what is going on (actually going on, rather than false humbleness) in people's souls. A friend of mine describes it as the "Jesus is a social worker" phenomenon.

You should spend some time with the Jesuits before making such odd comments.

[Marianne]

I've meet franciscan brother who explains to us that they were working for social justice (while being member of a church who's against abortion, birth control, pro death penalty... That make sense). Their "work for social justice" was making"circles of silence" on the Place du Capitole. Religious were round with other people, keeping silence in support of immigrant. Newspapers were there and applauded this action.

In the same time, my girlfriends had work with dominican sister who hide immigrant in their couvent - like they did with the Jews during the war. THIS was doing social justice. No medias. danger - if police took them, they could have been jailed. I've also a lot of love for other dominican sisters. I was a very difficul child from foster care, and I have been boarder in their school. They were wonderfull.

I think that the difficulty that some people like me have with pope Francis is the whole "Look at me ! I'm poor ! I'm modern ! Poverty is cool ! I'm really not bourgeois ! ABORTION AND BIRTH CONTROL AND GAY SEX IS BAD. But I'm modern. Okay, I will never change the " "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.", or "Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.", but I have said "Who I am to judge a gay people ?" when currently, my church judges gay people."

[Arete]

Speaking only about my experiences with the Greek Orthodox hierarchy-the ones that keep every bit of luxury because it is their historic and traditional due are to me the ones who have the LEAST credibility in explaining and living Christianity. I WANT the patriarch on the friggin bus so he can understand how those he would presume to teach their Christian duty really live. Forget one lousy salary for a driver, put that money so that the children of the poor can eat while they get Masters and PhDs and those people will do the job creation, not the Princes of the Church.

The Apostles were poor. Every last one of them. I do not expect their modern successors to live in destitution, but living in palaces and Greek villas is GROSS. So I really applaud a Pope Francis or an Archbishop Anastasios of Albania for taking a look at the luxury with a critical eye and not just treating it as their historic right.

[Marianne]

“All life has inestimable value even the weakest and most vulnerable, the sick, the old, the unborn and the poor, are masterpieces of God’s creation, made in his own image, destined to live forever, and deserving of the utmost reverence and respect.â€

Pope Francis. So. Against abortion, plus the poor are the masterpieces of God's creation, and all this evil socialist who fight poverty are bullshit because God wants poor to be poor and it's soooooooooooo good to be poor. SEriously. This kind of poverty worship remember me this :

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions (Marx)

[Arete]

“All life has inestimable value even the weakest and most vulnerable, the sick, the old, the unborn and the poor, are masterpieces of God’s creation, made in his own image, destined to live forever, and deserving of the utmost reverence and respect.â€

Pope Francis. So. Against abortion, plus the poor are the masterpieces of God's creation, and all this evil socialist who fight poverty are bullshit because God wants poor to be poor and it's soooooooooooo good to be poor. SEriously. This kind of poverty worship remember me this :

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions (Marx)

I don't find the first quote to be about poverty worship. It really is about the unique dignity that all people have regardless of their socioeconomic status. Let's face it, in most societies, the poor are usually the first on the list to be considered "useless" and lacking dignity. It does not follow that if a Pope includes the poor in the Masterpiece of Creation, that he is implying it is OK to do nothing and have them remain poor. He is speaking of the dignity of the person, not the dignity of poverty.

In my area of the US Catholics have always been in the thick of the fights for social justice, including living wages, worker protection, and the abolition of the death penalty. The two areas that don't have a church sanctioned presence is abortion rights and contraception, but for the other social justice issues including the fight against racism, the official Catholic Church was/is a visible presence in the US Northeast.

[Ave Maria]

You should spend some time with the Jesuits before making such odd comments.

I've known enough people who have attended their universities to not want to. :)