Lourdes & Nolan Manteufel - Doug Phillips lawsuit - Part 2

[Hane]

Nolan is grateful for our support. I IMd him and asked him whether his openness online might have a negative effect on his wife's trial. He responded that they were emerging from a cult that throve on secrecy and obfuscation, and that transparency is all-important to him and Lourdes.

[fundiefan]

Ann Boleyn did push the reformation, but not for the sake of religion or her country or anyone. She did what she did with one motive - herself. It was the only way to get, and keep, her prize - the King. The Botkins, as expected, completely fail at motive and context. She was not a champion of any faith, she was a champion of and for herself and her family. I sadly remember when I first read the Botkin crap. I don't know if my head has fully stopped spinning.

Ann Boleyn has been given a 'bad wrap' in history and was far from the harlot many believe her to have been. She was not, however, a Protestant champion. She was a product of her time, her station, her family, her environment and her gender.

[MerryHappy]

Nolan is grateful for our support. I IMd him and asked him whether his openness online might have a negative effect on his wife's trial. He responded that they were emerging from a cult that throve on secrecy and obfuscation, and that transparency is all-important to him and Lourdes.

Not really an answer.

I want to know if he feels that his transparency is worth potentially injuring his wife's chance at justice.

Honestly, that quote about schooling Lourdes in sex wasn't transparency as much as stroking his own ego.

[Hane]

Not really an answer.

I want to know if he feels that his transparency is worth potentially injuring his wife's chance at justice.

Honestly, that quote about schooling Lourdes in sex wasn't transparency as much as stroking his own ego.

Perhaps--but I think he's still in the euphoria stage of cutting ties with the cult. I wasn't thrilled with his chest-thumping sexual announcement, to be honest. He may be learning how to be open but not Doin It Rite quite yet. And he's a fairly young guy, and possibly naive.

[MerryHappy]

Perhaps--but I think he's still in the euphoria stage of cutting ties with the cult. I wasn't thrilled with his chest-thumping sexual announcement, to be honest. He may be learning how to be open but not Doin It Rite quite yet. And he's a fairly young guy, and possibly naive.

I think you are right. There is a bit of a learning curve to freedom.

[thoughtful]

They were a Lutheran family that came to BCA right around the time of The League Of Grateful Sons (LOGS) stuff. I guess he might have been a bit younger.

Thanks for the further info. Glad he grew to see through the crap and get free.

[MamaJunebug]

2009 -- so that picture of the two of them was taken during the time of the abuse. Man, I'll tell you – that is one conscience-free fellow, that Doug. Look at him, standing proud and – well as tall as he can.

[nausicaa]

2009 -- so that picture of the two of them was taken during the time of the abuse. Man, I'll tell you – that is one conscience-free fellow, that Doug. Look at him, standing proud and – well as tall as he can.

:lol:

[FJSharkJump]

I always thought Lourdes (though I never knew her name back then because I just don't keep close track of these things) looked really miserable in that pic, like she was forced to dress up and participate in something that she knew was rull rull dum, and like she's probably hot and uncomfortable and longs to be a million miles away from the doofus standing next to her and everybody else, too. I always hoped the next pic that was probably immediately deleted was of her rolling her eyes and turning to hightail it out of there.

And now we know what was really going on behind these dressed up scenes. And it makes me feel so sick. I wish now what I saw in that photo had been merely about a young woman forced by her sub-culture to participate in these silly dress up events that were hot and uncomfortable and awkward and stressful solely because of all the suppressed eye rolls and sighs. The major stress in Lourdes' life should have been from having to be nice and polite to and for the benefit of ridiculous people. Not the stress of being repeatedly sexually assaulted by that asshole at night and then having to stand next to him and smile for the cameras by day. :angry-steamingears:

[formergothardite]

Not really an answer.

I want to know if he feels that his transparency is worth potentially injuring his wife's chance at justice.

Honestly, that quote about schooling Lourdes in sex wasn't transparency as much as stroking his own ego.

ITA with this. I think that was just a brag about how awesome he is in bed. But I've seen a lot of people come out of strict religious upbringings and many people go through a stage where they share everything and anything because they haven't quite learned what is appropriate to share and what isn't. Luckily there was no social networking when I was coming out of ATI and so there is no documentation of my fumbling about trying to figure out what is socially acceptable. :lol:

[FloraKitty35]

OMG. Just went back and read the Botkin blog post about that: visionarydaughters.com/2009/07/resurrecting-two-great-queens

I laughed so hard. Yes, Anne Boleyn, great reformer.

Katherine Parr would have been a better choice than Anne Boleyn. After all she married Henry VIII because he ordered to do so, not because she wanted to do so and she was known for her piety and she was a published author.

[Kate]

RE Nolan's TMI chest thumping, I'm thinking it makes some sense in the context that:

a) His wife is not in the Never Been Kissed club with All The Pieces of Her Heart intact, which, following VM principles, makes her damaged goods and incapable of bringing all of herself to this marriage (not, for the record something I agree with)

b) The VM party line is that she actively pursued the Tool because (implied, not spoken) he's so wonderful and desirable (again, obviously not something I agree with)

c) Nolan was not a noble intern or one of the manly men, he was a be-speckled science kid who wasn't even asked to wear a costume (to the best of my knowledge, and again, I think in real world he seems like a great guy and a good catch, but I don't think it's necessarily seen that way in VF world)

d) As the e-book sale made it to the Tool's rebuttal, it's quite possible the the Tool reads or hears about what Nolan posts and there may be an element of nose-thumbing

I still think it's way too much information that I didn't need to read, but I think it may be part of looking at the above world view and giving it the finger.

[MrsFoxx]

I knew a girl in college of the super-purity type. She left after her freshman year to marry a guy who she met over break who was working "with her parents' ministry". He was 30, she was 18.

She sent a postcard the next year to the hall to say she missed us but not that much because the sex was, in fact, completely worth it and everything we had heard it was and more.

It is a weird paradox, the switch from chastity to sexy, and it affects people in different ways when they're spreading their wings, especially coming from extreme conservatism.

[treehugger]

This is just my humble opinion and I obviously cannot speak for Nolan or Lourdes… but I am pretty sure the lawsuit isn't about winning the money, but about exposing The Tool for who he is. And I think that purpose is being accomplished quite nicely.

I sort of know what it is like to leave an oppressive group of people - and the freedom can be a bit heady. And I know I screwed up a lot and did some really stupid shit, but that comes with learning and growing. And Nolan and Lourdes, I just want to say that it's okay. You will sometimes mess up, and that's okay too. It's all part of learning to live in the real world and think for yourselves. I think you both are incredibly brave, and I hope nothing but the best for the two of you.

[FundieWatcher]

c) Nolan was not a noble intern or one of the manly men, he was a be-speckled science kid who wasn't even asked to wear a costume (to the best of my knowledge, and again, I think in real world he seems like a great guy and a good catch, but I don't think it's necessarily seen that way in VF world)

I really says something about that world that he is not seen as a good catch. Here is a guy who :

a) has an education

b) is capable of standing up for himself- even going up against his entire family and

c) is able to support himself and pay his own bills

So what is a fundie gal looking for in a man?

[lemonhead]

I understand some of the reactions here to Nolan's postings, because I've also cringed a little when reading them.

But as others have said, coming out of a high-control group is a process, and it's his process, and we have to let him own it. Of course we all have our opinions, and we can all express them, but I can say from my own experience coming out of a similar group--he may be more likely to react to judgment and criticism by shutting down or rejecting it automatically, because that is a survival response developed in order to preserve some semblance of individuality or agency in those environments. It takes time to learn that people can disagree without putting your eternal salvation on the line, or shunning each other (as seems to have happened with many of his friends and at least some members of his family of origin).

I also think this lawsuit is more about exposing abuse in the court of public opinion rather than winning money, so he may very well have no concerns about jeopardizing its viability in the civil court system.

[Othello]

I knew a girl in college of the super-purity type. She left after her freshman year to marry a guy who she met over break who was working "with her parents' ministry". He was 30, she was 18.

She sent a postcard the next year to the hall to say she missed us but not that much because the sex was, in fact, completely worth it and everything we had heard it was and more.

It is a weird paradox, the switch from chastity to sexy, and it affects people in different ways when they're spreading their wings, especially coming from extreme conservatism.

Interesting! The odd thing is that, this is exactly what the culture expects of women – to go from being perfectly pure and never even thinking about sex (because that sends you to hell as quickly as doing it) to giving their husband mindblowing sex whenever they need it in order to keep them from thinking about other women. Surprising that she was able to make the switch... or perhaps she thought about sex a little more than everyone thought ;-)

[Hane]

ITA with this. I think that was just a brag about how awesome he is in bed. But I've seen a lot of people come out of strict religious upbringings and many people go through a stage where they share everything and anything because they haven't quite learned what is appropriate to share and what isn't. Luckily there was no social networking when I was coming out of ATI and so there is no documentation of my fumbling about trying to figure out what is socially acceptable. :lol:

This kind of reminds me of the former USSR after perestroika. Folks in the West criticized Russia's first fumbling attempts at democracy and capitalism (which have hardly been ironed out even now), but didn't consider that most western countries had taken years to make democracy work.

[Palimpsest]

They were a Lutheran family that came to BCA right around the time of The League Of Grateful Sons (LOGS) stuff. I guess he might have been a bit younger.

Please don't answer this one, CnD. It's up to Nolan to satisfy my curiosity on this issue -- or not, if he doesn't want to, and that's OK! It's his personal family business.

One of the things I notice in all of this is -- where is Dad Manteufel? The Headship is remarkably absent here. I'm assuming that means Nolan's mother is a widow/divorced, making Nolan the titular Head of the Family per BCA standards, if he is the only son. We've seen mention of sisters but not other brothers.

In some ways, if Nolan is the only son, that makes the estrangement from his mother sadder. I still cringe a little when I remember the scorching Facebook post when he tells her than she will never see her grandchildren if she doesn't change her mind about Doug/BCA. However justified he was (and is) in saying that, it had to have hurt his mother.

Of course, Nolan's dad may still be around, in or out of the cult, but just isn't mentioned. That's just a bit odd.

[FlorenceHamilton]

I have been thinking about Nolan and came here to post my thoughts (I do have a life...really. Eh, maybe not). It seems my fellow FJ's have done a fairly thorough job of expressing my own sentiments as well.

I do think Nolan is a little bit over the top at the moment and is having some difficulty with the difference between secrecy and privacy. Although some of his posts are cringeworthy, I am giving him a pass. I agree that his behavior speaks to the fact that what he and Lourdes are looking for is exposure of the abuser as opposed to getting a great deal of money. I don't think they expect to see money from this lawsuit. I do think that they may consider there may be paid interviews in their future to further humiliate DPIAT/R after it is over.

I do want to comment to Lourdes sexuality. Sex and sexuality are complex. DPIAT started grooming Lourdes at about the time a normal young woman becomes aware that she has sexual feelings. (How convenient for DPIAT) I think that the early attention was arousing for her. Just because she was capable of sexual arousal does not mean she was culpable for her sexual abuse. A young person may enjoy the attentions of an older and highly esteemed older adult as long as that is where it stays. When DPIAT began touching Lourdes in ways for which she was unprepared and then using her as a masturbatory vehicle, I am quite certain her feelings turned to horror. She was raped.

I think it is to her credit that she can reach back and find the young girl who had normal sexual feelings and take that young girl into her appropriate peer relationship with Nolan. Kudos to both of them. That said, I think they both may need some therapy/support moving forward. When life settles down, Nolan can't always be a hero (Hero used here in the usual sense). Like all of us, he will sometimes be moody or act like a jerk of have some annoying habit or other. He and Lourdes will need to work through not getting triggered in a negative way by the appearance of "The Stranger" in one another.

All of that said, I wish them all the best. And as a snarker, I am enjoying the big middle finger they are waving at DPIAT/R.

[Eponine]

Are they just making this version of Anne up out of whole cloth? Serious question for you historians, I suppose there was some revisionist history put out by Elizabeth I in trying to rescue her mother's reputation? I don't know.

Many historians would argue that this view of Boleyn is not necessarily incorrect, but most would probably say she was involved not for personal religious reasons, but political. The supporters of Catholicism were also mostly those who were set against her marriage to Henry VIII and many of the reformers she actively promoted, who the Botkinettes mention, were essential in getting Henry his annulment. It was a mutually beneficial situation: if the reformers and Boleyn supported each other she'd become queen and the country would become Protestant. So of course she was instrumental in gaining influence for them through promoting their religious ideas. I don't think anyone could argue with the facts they gave about Boleyn's actions, more the intention behind it. There isn't a whole lot of evidence to show what her true feelings on religion were.

I agree with whoever said Katherine Parr would be a far better choice: there is ample evidence that she was a true-believer Protestant, that she authored religious texts, and promoted Protestant reformers. Jeanne d'Albrecht is also a good and interesting choice though far less well known!

[MerryHappy]

ITA with this. I think that was just a brag about how awesome he is in bed. But I've seen a lot of people come out of strict religious upbringings and many people go through a stage where they share everything and anything because they haven't quite learned what is appropriate to share and what isn't. Luckily there was no social networking when I was coming out of ATI and so there is no documentation of my fumbling about trying to figure out what is socially acceptable. :lol:

Ain't that the truth. :D

Nolan, I am giving you a verbal noogie right now to tell you that as someone who has left a cult and struggled to find my own way, it is okay to keep some things to yourself. We won't think less of you for doing so.

That said, if you continue to post chest thumping nonsense and I hear about it...yeah, it will be an atomic noogie from me and I ain't even kidding... ;)

[Eponine]

Did anyone else see the post Nolan made a couple of days ago with the statement "Everything happens for a reason. But sometimes that reason is that you're stupid and you make bad decisions" then he said, "@ myself. Right, Free Jinger?" Lourdes responded with (I think) support. Doing a quick scroll through of his FB I wasn't able to find the questionable sex drive post and I'm reading this as an acknowledgement that it might not have been the best idea. Maybe I'm a bit too optimistic, but it seems like he read the discussion here and thought twice about sharing things about their sex life. If so, way to go for being able to admit his mistakes - I imagine that would be hard coming from a guy who grew up in the Dougie's BS!

[MerryHappy]

This kind of reminds me of the former USSR after perestroika. Folks in the West criticized Russia's first fumbling attempts at democracy and capitalism (which have hardly been ironed out even now), but didn't consider that most western countries had taken years to make democracy work.

There absolutely is a grace period needed when walking away from fundie-ville.

That said, Nolan doesn't get a free pass from me (nor would any other X-er) when he posts something as tasteless as what he did earlier about sex with Lourdes. Nope. I understand that he is fresh out of the cult and angry as hell but that does not give him free reign to basically refer to his wife as in need of sexual schooling, of which he is a master.

I really had to question that attitude, especially in light of what Lourdes is going through with this law suit. The truth is, unless Nolan was screwing around, Lourdes is the more experienced of the two-albeit against her will and done in a disgusting, awful way.

As an X-er reading that quote, what I saw was the male insecurity about owning the females sexual experience. THAT is what I am addressing.

He shouldn't have said it. He sure as hell shouldn't have put it online. It is not an unforgivable sin. Not at all.

[MerryHappy]

Did anyone else see the post Nolan made a couple of days ago with the statement "Everything happens for a reason. But sometimes that reason is that you're stupid and you make bad decisions" then he said, "@ myself. Right, Free Jinger?" Lourdes responded with (I think) support. Doing a quick scroll through of his FB I wasn't able to find the questionable sex drive post and I'm reading this as an acknowledgement that it might not have been the best idea. Maybe I'm a bit too optimistic, but it seems like he read the discussion here and thought twice about sharing things about their sex life. If so, way to go for being able to admit his mistakes - I imagine that would be hard coming from a guy who grew up in the Dougie's BS!

I hadn't seen that. Good for him. :clap: