Lori - V-Day Causes Divorce - Now With Moar Ken! Part 2

[Ken]

Marriage is not an economic or mathematical model.

In an equal marriage (as my marriage was, I am a widow) we tried to make each other as happy as possible which takes a lot of effort and.....compromise.

Giving 100% of ourselves so to speak. It is very kind to love and accept your spouse with whatever flaws he may have and be loved back in the same fashion than a sort of biblical enforced concept with a tribal and primitive hierarchy.

Why do you think a biblical marriage is superior to an equal marriage whatever that means?

The divorce rate amongst christians particularly the fundamentalistic brand is significantly higher than let's call it a 'secular marriage'.

http://www.salon.com/2013/11/01/atheist ... s_partner/

I agree! Divorce is rampant and we are trying to stop it among Christians by teach what you already know and practiced. It is in and out of the church that spouses need to live like you did with your husband. You were smarter and wiser than we were for 20 years.

[latraviata]

I agree! Divorce is rampant and we are trying to stop it among Christians by teach what you already know and practiced. It is in and out of the church that spouses need to live like you did with your husband. You were smarter and wiser than we were for 20 years.

Thank you!

[formergothardite]

Ken, you speak about how wonderful a Christian marriage with submission is but then we see you praising Cabinet Man and his marriage sound awful. Even when I was a Christian I would have hated to be married to a man like that. So do you understand why this sort of marriage does not sound appealing?

I know you can't answer every question, but I really am curious if you still view SSM as a godly writer now that you know that she advocates rape.

[Coconut Flan]

but there is no pastor in any church who goes longer than a year before teaching this lesson, especially on Father's Day where they tend to blister the men for not doing their role properly and leading with love.

I think you need to visit a few more churches, Ken. In my long life (I'm older than you and Lori) I've only heard one Biblical submission sermon and that was decades ago. It doesn't get talked about outside the more fundamentalist realm at least that I've seen. I'm glad you and Lori have found a method that works. It didn't work for my dearly departed husband and me and none of our children would even think of trying it yet the married ones are very happily married. They firmly believe neither spouse should have a "final" say or someone is going to have resentment. Even if it's 2% of the time, that's too much.

From what you've said there are more nuances on submission than I've seen before so that is a plus and something to think about. Although I won't be recommending it to anyone.

ETA: Google hits do not equal articles to me. I'm surprised that there are that many hits though.

[polecat]

My purpose is multiple things, but what really put me on here was when I came by, which I have done about once a year for three years, and heard some comments that showed what appeared to be genuine concern for our family. I think I can now see a little different side to this Forum, that aside from a few, probably the vast majority on this Forum are just concerned people who look into the Fundie worldview and see certain abuses, and want to try to stop these abuses. Some of you here have real hurts that come from the church. I get it.

I will need to spend some time looking into Patriarchy and other abuses that you all claim are in Fundie churches and families everywhere. I was born to Fundie parents, I grew up in the church and have attended many churches, and I have yet to see the abuse you speak of. I know it must exist, I need to look more into it. So another purpose for being on here was to see what all the excitement is about.

Ken, I hope you take the time to read what I'm about to write. I understand that you have not seen or experienced abuse in the fundamentalist environment in which you grew up. I shared my story on the last thread (I rather think you either missed it or overlooked it). Regardless, take some time when you can to browse this site: religionscell.wordpress.com/ My story is there, too, along with my friend Sam's -- he has several stories there, actually. He may or may not mention D. D is another friend of mine who was utterly brutalized. And then Tina. Tina Anderson's name is well-known amongst survivors of fundamentalist abuse (and even in the media) because of her story; what was done to her was evil. I don't even know that evil is a strong enough word for what was done to her -- in the name of God.

I don't know the backstory of many people here, but I do know many people who survived brutal fundamentalist upbringings. We're all strong people today who are standing up for what is right, standing up against our abusers, standing up against the system that not only allowed them to flourish but even encouraged them in many ways. Please listen to our voices. Our experiences can teach so much to those who will just take the time to listen.

[Hisey]

One thing I am noticing about Lori is that she has a strong need to control what her family eats. She's posted about how she conflicted with Ken about his eating junk food. Or he'd buy junk food (pizza?) and then the kids wouldn't eat their "big salads." Or she'd forced her youngest to sit at the table till she ate the "big salad." Why does she do this, and why does she think it is good?

The result is a family that is surprisingly unhealthy. Ken says that everyone in the family, except one son, had "gut" and "parasite" problems. He and the nanny had (I think it was) gallstones for years. Lori, of course, had her chronic health issues, some of which were identified by the medical profession and some were not.

I wonder if some of those "gut" issues had to do with all the pressure, discipline and talking about eating "healthy" (I think it's more correct to say "healthily")?

Personally, when raising kids, I prefer to make food and eating a low-pressure issue. My husband was raised in a household where food was a hot issue, and he would sometimes try to bribe or correct the children with food ("No dessert unless you. . ." or "Do this and we'll stop for donuts"). I put a stop to that right away (our marriage is not submissive) and now he thanks me for it. He realizes that was unhealthy behavior. Both girls today have no food issues, they eat when they are hungry and are quite slender with good self esteem. We keep mostly healthy food in the house, don't sweat it when they do eat junk, and generally let them control their food intake at meals. If they ever do start to become overweight, the last thing I'll do is talk about their "sin" with them. Instead, I'll cut back on the junk food and crap, and make sure there is only healthy food in the house.

[Koala]

***And again. Ken, if I didn't know better I would assume that you don't have the integrity to either stand by these comments or renounce them. If this is what you truly believe, then you should have the integrity to say so, and if not you should renounce it and clarify your position. To continually ignore it just appears cowardly.

Based on your most recent comments I would be tempted to believe you were more balanced than your wife and actually willing to learn from the point of view of another. Believe it or not I can see why even if you disagree with Lori, you are not willing to throw her to the wolves as it were. What I can't see is how a person who presents himself as having fairly moderate views can make such vile comments. These statements are of great concern to me, and until they are addressed they will continue to color perception of you. ***

Ken wrote:

OK Koala, your chasing me out of your playground soon. I cannot compete with your cut and paste to make everything look like you want it to look. Mischarcaterizations at best, and an unwillingness to recognize that one can hold two thoughts in the brain at once and both be accurate.

Ken wrote:

Yes, Koala, you can put works on apiece of a paper well to serve your purposes,but have you ever thought of trying to serve fairness in your life, or at least fairness with me?

You know, the more I think about your assertion that you have been mischaracterized, the more irritated I get. You want fairness. Here's fairness.

You say I put words on paper? Here's your chance to tell me these are not your words.

You say you were mischaracterized, here's your chance to clarify.

Here's your chance set the record straight. If you ignore it then I will assume that these were indeed your quotes and you were not mischaracterized as you claim:

1)

Mom:

I had one that would never give in to anything, regardless of punishment, spanking did nothing but make her worse, time outs where a joke, finally I picked her up and threw her under a cold shower

Lori Alexander:

A spanking will work if it is hard enough

Mom:

Not with her, we tried hand, and although I was against it belt, wooden spoon, cane everything she would just keep going, I stopped after I thought I broke her arm...

Ken Alexander:

Listen I get the issue that we need to protect against abuse, but you know full well this was not an abusive mother.

Alright, there it is Ken. Are the words I attributed to you yours? If so, how did quoting them mischaracterize you?

2)

SSM

Repeal marital rape laws – not because men are just dying to rape women (they aren’t) but because these laws give women the mistaken impression that they have the right to refuse sex with their husbands.

Why: If we want men to have to marry in order to have access to sex – which is necessary if we are going to foster traditional sex roles and enhance family formation – they must have assurance that they will actually get sex after they marry. If a woman wants to live in a man’s house and eat of his bread, she had better be willing to serve him in this way (barring illness of course); if she refuses to give it to him, he should have the option to take what is rightfully his.

Ken Alexander:

I see a brilliant writer and advocate for submission in a Christian marriage, but you and your friends are giving Lori and me pause to reevaluate

Are the words I attributed to you yours? If so, how did quoting them mischaracterize you?

3)

SSM:

Consider asking your husband if he would be willing to spank you as part of foreplay.

Please don’t panic. Spanking is not a slippery slope that will lead to BDSM, disturbing fetishes or deviant sexual practices. I can promise you that from personal experience; you won’t be spanked one day and in leather restraints the next. Some people practice Christian Domestic Discipline, but that is actually not what I am recommending either. This is only to be about increasing your attraction to him by having him display dominance via consensual sexual aggression.

It is his decision if he would be willing to try this; this may be outside his comfort zone completely, and he may be feeling very mistrustful of you, but if he is willing to try it, you may not be sure of what to do. Here is one possible way to go: first, ask him to buy a wooden hair brush that has a very flat back (the curved ones tend to leave more bruises). The brush should be on your dresser.

He can sit down on the edge of the bed and tell you to bring the brush to him. Get it, and then kneel down on the floor in front of him and hand the brush to him. He can then pull you firmly but lovingly across his lap, either with lingerie on or no bottoms. It might be easier to have your legs supported on the bed, but your hands off the bed so that you are slightly off balance. He can then administer the spanking; he might want to know that he can swat fairly hard without causing bruises, but even if you do have a bruise the next day, you won’t die.

The number of strokes should be up to him, not you; he decides when the spanking is over (h/t 7man for that idea), not you. When he is done, get on your knees in front of him and say thank you to him. You should thank him because he is doing something that may be outside his comfort zone in order to help you, and you do not deserve it. He is doing this out of love for you, so show him the gratitude he so richly deserves.

Scripture to meditate upon: For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Hebrews 12:11

(AFTER reading these quotes Ken Alexander said):

BUT SSM made very clear to Lori she is not an advocate of Domestic Discipline

SSM is teaching some sex training for a previous whore

Are the words I attributed to you yours? If so, how did quoting them mischaracterize you?

4)

Ken Alexander:

just because a wife is emotionally abused does not mean she should leave her man or take him to the elders, or separate.

Are the words I attributed to you yours? If so, how did quoting them mischaracterize you?

[Koala]

Why do you and your group have to bother her/us? Why can’t you leave us alone? You are the ones bullying us and sending nasty comments, trolling. What is wrong with you that you cannot allow freedom of speech?

Quoting this again as well. Please tell us how your wife is being denied her freedom of speech, and how we are responsible. This is a rather heavy accusation, so to make it and then refuse to substantiate it takes away from your credibility.

[Curious]

Is there a cost or limit to the number of times someone posts here? If I get 13 questions should I just pick and choose which ones to answer. I am going to have to do that, but I just hate seeing mischaracterizations and misunderstandings go unanswered. So sorry, I will get my count down dramatically soon.

I'm not sure what the reasoning behind the OP (original post) here was. I read it as humorous, but one of the responses seemed to give it a catch 22 connotation. Since I haven't read these threads religiously, I don't have the full context.

I am going to answer your post seriously as an Admin since you are new and still learning board culture/inside jokes and the like.

There is no forum posting limit or cost associated with FJ. It's free to all members (and guest readers) and you can post as much as you would like every day. There are many forums/threads and you are free to post in other threads besides the ones associated with your wife, as well.

[linnea27]

Ken, I have to call BS on your claim above that 98% of submission is a desire to please your husband (I would quote it directly but quoting walls of text always seems to mess up for me when I use my phone). You just wrote paragraphs claiming that men spend all their time wanting to please their submissive wives and do whatever the wives wish, so if a desire to please one's spouse was 98% of submitting, then why aren't men seen as submissive as well?

I aim to please my husband. I try to be a good wife, one who is loyal, kind, respectful, and giving. I expect the same from him. I would not describe either of us as submissive though.

[Curious]

I so wish I could paste the image in but none of my buttons work.

Just more admin help since you are new to the forum, Ken. If you want to add an image to your post there are several ways to do so. You can upload the image to some place that allows hotlinking (flicker, photobucket, tinypic, etc) and link to it using the img tag up above there. Simply copy the url given to you by the place where you uploaded the file and then highlight it and hit the img button up top there.

It will look like this in the code:

[img]http://www.memehumor.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/80323_Lolcat4-e1300864293287.jpg [/img]

and like this in the post:

The second way you can add an image to your post is by copying the image to your hard drive and following this directions helpfully supplied by Happy Atheist:

How do I upload a picture to FJ?

It's easy!

1. Below the window where you type your message, there are 2 tabs. Choose "Upload Attachment"

2. Navigate to the image on your computer and select "Choose"

3. Click "Add the File" to upload

4. Now there will be a section above the tabs called "Posted Attachments" - Add a comment if you like, it will appear like a caption under the pic.

5. When you click "Place Inline" it will insert the image wherever the cursor is.

Note - If you type your message and then upload the image, it will reset the cursor to the beginning of the message. Just click wherever you want the image.

[Curious]

Quoting this again as well. Please tell us how your wife is being denied her freedom of speech, and how we are responsible. This is a rather heavy accusation, so to make it and then refuse to substantiate it takes away from your credibility.

While I am, in general, quite agreeable to Ken being here and appreciative of the way he is interacting with us on the forum (he's certainly conducting himself far better than the majority of the people we follow who drop in to tell us we are going to hell before darting back to their own blogs to take potshots from there again ;) ), the notion that Free Jinger is somehow denying Lori's freedom of speech is starting to annoy me.

First, we take freedom of speech pretty seriously here and are probably one of the least moderated sites of this nature on the internet. We are mostly self-policing, which is pretty amazing when you consider the nature of the topics we discuss here. We rarely ban people, other than for breaking the sock puppet rule, in fact, I'm not sure I can think of anyone that has been banned for something other than that. It may have happened, but it's obviously not a frequent occurrence, since I can't think of any.

So here is a little refresher on what freedom of speech is really about, directly from the Constitution:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Now the last time I checked, Free Jinger was not part of Congress. We are also not any kind of govt entity trying to suppress Lori or anyone else from expressing her opinion. We have no way to stop her or anyone else from expressing her opinion. Freedom of Speech doesn't mean Freedom from Disagreement.

Just as Lori is free to express her opinions, we are free to express our disagreement with those opinions and you are free to express your disagreement with our disagreement.

I trust this brief lesson will stop any further suggestions that Free Jinger is denying Lori (or anyone else) their Freedom of Speech.

Class Dismissed!

There are snacks available in the lobby :)

:soda: :cupcake:

[Ken]

Ken, you post like you hold reasonable position on corporal punishment. So I'd really like to understand this post better:

Lori finishes up by saying this:

Can you help me understand this? It is very different that what you said, that you gave the kids an occasional rare "swat."

Right or wrong we were taught that we would at some point when our child was 3-4 years old we would encounter unrelenting willful disobedience. That if we stood up to the child with consistency the child would relent and cooperate and then will have learned that it is not worth fighting the stringer will of a parent. This came true for us.

One daughter did not want to eat her raisins so she looked right at Mom and threw them on the ground. She then refused to help mom pick them up, so swat, to bed, back on the floor, total defiance. I got home and she was in bed and I was told what happened. I went to her room, told her she was to go downstairs and pick up the raisins. I carried her downstairs and she picked up the raisins. I do not recall spanking her, but mom had used every disciplinary tool and we never had the issue of defiance again. Maybe a sour mood when doing something we asked, but with all the kids, one time really consistent until we won, and we never had to do it twice. We believe it best that children learn early that "no" means "no." Winning this battle means far less spankings in the future..., at least for our kids.

[Hisey]

Lori says this showdown occurred at 18 months:

The first time our children had a temper tantrum or refused to obey us, around 18 months, Ken and I would take turns telling them to pick up the toys {or whatever they were refusing to do} and then give them a swat on their bottom if they wouldn't do it. With all four of our children, it took almost four long, difficult hours.

Here's what she says happens (from the comments):

One of them wouldn't pick up their raisans. We would tell her to pick them up, she would say "no", and we would spank her. She would cry for awhile. After awhile, we would again tell her to pick up her raisans. She refused. We spanked her again. We would make her stay where she was until she finally picked up her raisans. Ken and I would take turns because it was very tiring but oh, so worth it. None of our children had tantrums after that. They each had one but found out it didn't result in anything good and wasnt' worth it.

Thank you for answering my question. I appreciate it. It seems this was yet another fight about food (your daughter refusing to eat her raisins). Do you think, today, that it is right to hit a child for so long (according to Lori's version) because she wouldn't eat something? Or would you do differently today?

If Lori's version is the correct one, do you agree today that it is OK to hit an 18-month old (off and on) for four hours because of defiance?

[Coconut Flan]

Temper tantrums are a normal part of toddlerhood. There are a number ways of handling them. What won't work is giving into them. One of our kids had the first tantrum and I laughed and called it a pitiful effort. That child never had another tantrum. Each parent child relationship is different and why should I have spanked a child when laughter did the trick? Seeing spanking as a necessary or early to go to tool is disturbing. Continually defending it and recommending it by experienced parents is even more disturbing. I tend to view it as a tool used by less experienced and less creative parents.

[Ken]

Ken, you speak about how wonderful a Christian marriage with submission is but then we see you praising Cabinet Man and his marriage sound awful. Even when I was a Christian I would have hated to be married to a man like that. So do you understand why this sort of marriage does not sound appealing?

I know you can't answer every question, but I really am curious if you still view SSM as a godly writer now that you know that she advocates rape.

Ken, you speak about how wonderful a Christian marriage with submission is but then we see you praising Cabinet Man and his marriage sound awful. Even when I was a Christian I would have hated to be married to a man like that. So do you understand why this sort of marriage does not sound appealing?

I know you can't answer every question, but I really am curious if you still view SSM as a godly writer now that you know that she advocates rape.

I have had no chance to investigate SSM further. I may be eating those words.

Cabinetman seems like a great guy who his wife loves dearly. It is impossible in a few posts and Q & A to see why he did what thought was necessary to save his wife and his marriage. If you knew you were losing your husband to bad friends, alcohol, and he was thinking of harming himself, what steps would you take to save him; or what would you want him to do to try and save you?

He admits he did not handle things perfectly, but I don't understand how his wife's obvious love and adoration for what he did for her does not resonate with you and others. These are impossible situations that most often end up really ugly, yet they not only make it in their marriage, their marriage and family is thriving with his moving her away from the bad influences.

Teens and young adults are often given strong intervention when hooked on alcohol or drugs, and that includes a change of location get them away from bad influences. One wife I know egged her husband on to be physical with her, got right in his face and dared him. When he let her go she calmly walked over to the phone, dialed 911 as he begged and pleaded in tears for her not to call the police. It saved his life. Such things are not easy, or clear, but to fault a man who wins his wife and now she loves him for it, that is unfair. He did it out of love, right or wrong in how he did it.

Life has no instructions manual for these things. I will not rehash blow by blow what you see t=on the written record, just imagine that there is always more to the story. Anyone here not have a few rough patches in their marriage?

[Koala]

I have had no chance to investigate SSM further. I may be eating those words.

She has been directly quoted advocating marital rape. This has happened multiple times. Her most recent comment was less than a month ago.

SSM

Repeal marital rape laws – not because men are just dying to rape women (they aren’t) but because these laws give women the mistaken impression that they have the right to refuse sex with their husbands.

Why: If we want men to have to marry in order to have access to sex – which is necessary if we are going to foster traditional sex roles and enhance family formation – they must have assurance that they will actually get sex after they marry. If a woman wants to live in a man’s house and eat of his bread, she had better be willing to serve him in this way (barring illness of course); if she refuses to give it to him, he should have the option to take what is rightfully his.

Upon seeing this quote you replied with the following:

Ken Alexander:

I see a brilliant writer and advocate for submission in a Christian marriage, but you and your friends are giving Lori and me pause to reevaluate

I think many people here are having a very difficult time understanding why you are having such a blasé reaction to a woman clearly endorsing rape.

[lawfulevil]

I'm not sure what the reasoning behind the OP (original post) here was. I read it as humorous, but one of the responses seemed to give it a catch 22 connotation. Since I haven't read these threads religiously, I don't have the full context.

I am going to answer your post seriously as an Admin since you are new and still learning board culture/inside jokes and the like.

There is no forum posting limit or cost associated with FJ. It's free to all members (and guest readers) and you can post as much as you would like every day. There are many forums/threads and you are free to post in other threads besides the ones associated with your wife, as well.

Oh, he was being a jerk earlier about how much time we all spend on the forums and I pointed out he spends just as much time here as any of us.

Now I'm just reminding him to tweak his nose.

[Ken]

While I am, in general, quite agreeable to Ken being here and appreciative of the way he is interacting with us on the forum (he's certainly conducting himself far better than the majority of the people we follow who drop in to tell us we are going to hell before darting back to their own blogs to take potshots from there again ;) ), the notion that Free Jinger is somehow denying Lori's freedom of speech is starting to annoy me. :

Thank you for the lesson and aside from the Search Engine Tag under my wife's name when you Google it, and a few free spirited folks, I would agree with you.

I do not know what your policy or thinking is on putting profanity out where young and old can read it, but any young woman or girl, looking for her name, or looking for another similar name, will all get a FreeJinger welcome of profanity. I am not sure that represents your Forum very well, or responsible speech.

Perhaps that is more what I am requesting. Just asking that disagreement take place in a responsible way, and it took lots of your members, not a few to get the profanity where it is. Name calling, that's a bit irresponsible too, but profanity like that?

Again, thank you for your lesson, and let me know if I am being too much of a distraction. You would think that some would like to find out more about Fundie thinking, and I certainly would like to find out more about all these dominant patriarchy types and shell's of women as I have not see a one of them in all my years in the church. But I am going to Texas soon and will ask about some of them.. Now you have me curious, and maybe the curiosity leads to the concerns that you all see.

[Coconut Flan]

It's a thread title coming up in the Google search for her name. I have no idea how management here feels about changing it.

[Koala]

Thank you for the lesson and aside from the Search Engine Tag under my wife's name when you Google it, and a few free spirited folks, I would agree with you.

I do not know what your policy or thinking is on putting profanity out where young and old can read it, but any young woman or girl, looking for her name, or looking for another similar name, will all get a FreeJinger welcome of profanity. I am not sure that represents your Forum very well, or responsible speech.

Perhaps that is more what I am requesting. Just asking that disagreement take place in a responsible way, and it took lots of your members, not a few to get the profanity where it is. Name calling, that's a bit irresponsible too, but profanity like that?

Again, thank you for your lesson, and let me know if I am being too much of a distraction. You would think that some would like to find out more about Fundie thinking, and I certainly would like to find out more about all these dominant patriarchy types and shell's of women as I have not see a one of them in all my years in the church. But I am going to Texas soon and will ask about some of them.. Now you have me curious, and maybe the curiosity leads to the concerns that you all see.

I have no idea what you are talking about and how it addresses your assertion that Lori is being denied her freedom of speech. It's one of 3 things:

1) You did not have a clear understanding of freedom of speech and what it entails, and in your ignorance falsely accused us

2) You had a clear understanding of free speech and what it entails, but you accused us anyway, hoping no one would call you on it

3) You maintain that we are denying Lori her freedom of speech

For clarity, can you please explain which of these 3 best fit?

You have made quite an accusation.

[Ken]

One thing I am noticing about Lori is that she has a strong need to control what her family eats. She's posted about how she conflicted with Ken about his eating junk food. Or he'd buy junk food (pizza?) and then the kids wouldn't eat their "big salads." Or she'd forced her youngest to sit at the table till she ate the "big salad." Why does she do this, and why does she think it is good?

The result is a family that is surprisingly unhealthy. Ken says that everyone in the family, except one son, had "gut" and "parasite" problems. He and the nanny had (I think it was) gallstones for years. Lori, of course, had her chronic health issues, some of which were identified by the medical profession and some were not.

I wonder if some of those "gut" issues had to do with all the pressure, discipline and talking about eating "healthy" (I think it's more correct to say "healthily")?

Personally, when raising kids, I prefer to make food and eating a low-pressure issue. My husband was raised in a household where food was a hot issue, and he would sometimes try to bribe or correct the children with food ("No dessert unless you. . ." or "Do this and we'll stop for donuts"). I put a stop to that right away (our marriage is not submissive) and now he thanks me for it. He realizes that was unhealthy behavior. Both girls today have no food issues, they eat when they are hungry and are quite slender with good self esteem. We keep mostly healthy food in the house, don't sweat it when they do eat junk, and generally let them control their food intake at meals. If they ever do start to become overweight, the last thing I'll do is talk about their "sin" with them. Instead, I'll cut back on the junk food and crap, and make sure there is only healthy food in the house.

My wife's heritage goes back a couple centuries of eating good stuff and it is a big part of her family. Organic, raw, fruits, vegies nuts and whole grains. I was a junk food junkie. Pizza twice or more a week, Big Macs and Ice Cream to fill in the est with donuts. I was really bad. o you think these two world's collided? I have discovered she was right and I was wrong but changing my bad habits was not easy. You thank your husband for giving up, and I thank my wife for fighting to get me to a balanced diet.

Look up what chronic parasites can do you a gut and potentially gallbladder, but my gb problems are directly elated to eating ice cream too much. I will leave it at that. Also genetics as four in my immediate family had their gb's out. I cured my issues with studying up on how it all works and putting the right things into my body with granulated lecithin and fish oils. Yes, many olive oil flushes until a bunch of chunks came out. It has been years now no issues and I can eat ice cream, just have to be moderate in all I eat.

Parasites, sandwiched between two semi truck on the freeway, spinal fusion and a brain tumor, and you think food was the cause of her illnesses? Indirectly maybe as that is where the parasites came from. Organically grown produce must have an extra level of cleaning which she did not know about until after the problems were discovered to be parasites. We live where you can buy the produce right off the farm stands. Now we always buy in a super market.

[Ken]

Ken, I hope you take the time to read what I'm about to write. I understand that you have not seen or experienced abuse in the fundamentalist environment in which you grew up. I shared my story on the last thread (I rather think you either missed it or overlooked it). Regardless, take some time when you can to browse this site: religionscell.wordpress.com/ My story is there, too, along with my friend Sam's -- he has several stories there, actually. He may or may not mention D. D is another friend of mine who was utterly brutalized. And then Tina. Tina Anderson's name is well-known amongst survivors of fundamentalist abuse (and even in the media) because of her story; what was done to her was evil. I don't even know that evil is a strong enough word for what was done to her -- in the name of God.

I don't know the backstory of many people here, but I do know many people who survived brutal fundamentalist upbringings. We're all strong people today who are standing up for what is right, standing up against our abusers, standing up against the system that not only allowed them to flourish but even encouraged them in many ways. Please listen to our voices. Our experiences can teach so much to those who will just take the time to listen.

I am seeing stories now, but have not seen or heard of them in real life experience where the abuse was related to submission. I have no doubt that abuse happens even in Christian marriages, and that most pastors struggle to know what to do about it. But the idea that somehow this abuse is related to a wife's attitude of submission I will keep reading the stories.

Now doubt the church and social services screw up or simply cannot help an abusive situation. It is such a hard issue, especially if kids are involved. My heart hurts for women like you if you were let down by the church, I would love nothing more tan to add my little "fix it" to solve such things, but as Lori says, submission assumes you are married to a good man and not an evil man, a Peter and not a Judas. Maybe she should post something about that again...

[Ken]

Oh, he was being a jerk earlier about how much time we all spend on the forums and I pointed out he spends just as much time here as any of us.

Now I'm just reminding him to tweak his nose.

I did not put two and two together... and you are right... I have to stop jumping on here as my work is suffering greatly. Is that the plan. I know I was warned by Koala to just hot the Red X in the upper corner or this might consume me. I am actual starting to like some of you. OK, blast me for that.

[Ken]

Just more admin help since you are new to the forum, Ken. If you want to add an image to your post there are several ways to do so. You can upload the image to some place that allows hotlinking (flicker, photobucket, tinypic, etc) and link to it using the img tag up above there. Simply copy the url given to you by the place where you uploaded the file and then highlight it and hit the img button up top there.

Note - If you type your message and then upload the image, it will reset the cursor to the beginning of the message. Just click wherever you want the image.

Thanks, it sounds so easy! Do you have to post a certain number of times to get your quote button to appear. It has now appeared. I am waiting for all the edit buttons to appear. This is universal with all three browsers and computers.

And thank you Abigail for your kind suggestion to management. It is in the comments themselves that some have repeated the unkind message that now hits all Google readers trying in Lori A. It was an interesting experiment, but I believe it violates Google's policies. Thanks for your consideration of the issue.