Lori - V-Day Causes Divorce - Now With Moar Ken! Part 2

[Koala]

3) How is your criticism of Lori and Ken's decision to support Alyssa's dance career different from fundies criticizing parents who send their daughters to college? Although I do not necessarily identify myself as a feminist because of negative connotations, part of feminism is supporting the decisions of other women even if those decisions are different from your own.

I can't speak for her, but I will speak for myself. Daughter 1 was not a woman when this decision was made- she was a young child. It was her parents responsibility to make decisions on her behalf.

These are the words she used to describe her issues with body image:

In my early years of dance, my body became my obsession. I had not even hit puberty and I was worried that I was too curvy or not skinny enough. Not only did my image disorder cause insecurity, but it gave rise to a host of other issues: bad eating habits, depression, injuries, foggy thinking, sleepless nights, and more. Idolizing the way I looked never helped me. It did not improve my appearance or my performance.

Ken has asserted that those issues stemmed from her being a ballerina.

I can only speak for myself, but if my young child was suffering in this manner in the service of "following a dream" I would immediately pull them out.

For us as parents, this was never an option to begin with. I tend to agree with Ken that the more serious dance companies can put their dancers under extreme pressure to look a certain way and to be a certain weight. This was not something we were willing to subject our daughter to.

[Coconut Flan]

Lori and I are good, kind, generous and thoughtful people who just have a different worldview then you do. Our world view is not new and is help by billions around the world.

Which world view is that? Generalized Christian? There are 2.18 B Christians in the world last year according to Pew Research

However, your Christianity seems a subset of overall Christianity and it's the subset that preaches one must be "saved" by that subset's definition to be a "true Christian." I believe your church identifies first as evangelical which would make it part of 13.1% of the Christians. I could sort of go along with your saying that was your world view, but that isn't billions of people. So I'd challenge that claim.

However, even of the evangelical groups not all emphasize patriarchal wifely submission. So far I've not been able to find a good count of those. Judging by Lori's comments and most of your writing here, I'd say this is the group you mainly follow and that's far fewer than billions.

[formergothardite]

Even among the submission teaching evangelical Christian groups their brand of submission where people like Cabinet Man are praised is pretty much on the fringe

[Ken]

Same here. My daughter had five years of dance-ballet, tap, and jazz. She wanted to join the company which was different from regular dance lessons. The company traveled around the country and did competitions. I said no. She wanted to be a ballerina and I said nooooo way. I told her that she could be almost anything but that. Call me a bad mother. I really don't care. I had long talks with her about how there would be too much pressure on her to stay thin, and that it might lead her down a dangerous path. I also told her that no job is worth it if it is based on body size. After all the hard work I did to keep my kids from having body, weight, and food issues, I was going to let her do that? I don't think so.

Making that tough choice for your child makes you a great mother. Right or wrong you thoughtfully did what was best for your child. Does that make all parents who see a special gift in the child bad parents for letting them play football or dance in ballet at a higher level? We did not allow our boys to play football because of the obvious risks and injuries, and we would have probably done all we could to try and discourage daughter #1 from dancing professionally if it was not for her choosing a Christian Ballet group that wears decent dresses and is actually against their dancers being too thin.

[Mama Mia]

Making that tough choice for your child makes you a great mother. Right or wrong you thoughtfully did what was best for your child. Does that make all parents who see a special gift in the child bad parents for letting them play football or dance in ballet at a higher level? We did not allow our boys to play football because of the obvious risks and injuries, and we would have probably done all we could to try and discourage daughter #1 from dancing professionally if it was not for her choosing a Christian Ballet group that wears decent dresses and is actually against their dancers being too thin.

See, this is how this place sucks you in ;) you come to discuss/debate your views on topic A and before you know it you're drawn in to a discussion on topics C through Z.

I think though that this shows that not everyone here all thinks alike. Even on this sub-sub-topic allowing/encouraging kids to engage in professional dance you get a range of strongly held opinions....let alone when you get to the big issues like guns or peanut butter[*]

[*]the reference to peanut butter is an inside joke here, as there was huge disagreement regarding this topic ( allergies / schools / nanny state vs protection and so on )

[Hisey]

Has anyone noticed the new disclaimer on Lori's blog?

This is a personal teaching blog speaking of what I have seen work from God's Word in my life and the lives of many others. Never accept any teacher's word alone without diligently searching the Bible for yourself, and find a local godly older woman to be your personal mentor. My little nuggets of God's truth work beautifully in Christian marriages, so if the simple truth appears to not be joyfully working, seek wise godly counsel. We are the body of Christ who are called to help each other along our journey of faith.

[Ken]

I'm a Christian and I don't claim it. But then you said it in your next sentence - men are not necessarily born better leaders, so why the obsession with fitting them into this mould?

Quoting you again "the true leader in any relationship is the one with the right behaviours and attitudes, not the most bossy" - so that could be the woman.

And again, what is the obsession with someone having to be the leader - my husband and I are both Christians and neither of us is the leader - we have a (very happy) relationship of equals and I just don't recognise your picture of a "Christian marriage".

Having just seen your recent post - I only get to speak my mind once or twice? No, we discuss things until we reach agreement - we are a team. Sometimes we go with his views, sometimes with mine - it differs from situation to situation.

I refer you to this article and a million others on a husband's role in a Christian marriage and it lists Leader as the first part of the role. I think he puts it well, especially pointing out that women are not second class citizens. A godly Christian marriage looks different from marriage to marriage for many reasons. 1) The husband likes it that way and he exercises his leadership by desiring that his wife speak her mind and keep the discussion going until the issue us resolved one way or the other; 2) The couple does not know that the husband is to be the leader so they spends many hours discussing, or arguing; 3) The couple knows what the Bible teaches and the wife does not want to play the role she has been given and allow her husband to lead. This is still a fine Christian couple, they can raise great kids and have a great marriage, but it is not marriage God's way. There are certain blessings that come from doing things God's ways, but none of us follow them completely, and like I said, there is lots of room within #1 above to obtain God's blessings if this is the way the husband chooses to lead.

It is hard to imagine one can view the scriptures honestly and not see: "husband is the head of the wife" and the "wife is to be subject to, submit, reverence her husband" repeated multiple times by more than one apostle.

http://www.familylife.com/articles/topi ... xJTXPnCWgY

#1: Be a leader. The Scriptures provide a clear organizational structure for a marriage. Following are a couple of typical Scriptures:

But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ

(1 Corinthians 11:3). Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

(Ephesians 5:22-30)

In his commentary on Ephesians, William Hendriksen points out that God "... placed ultimate responsibility with respect to the household on the shoulders of the husband . . . The Lord has assigned the wife the duty of obeying her husband yet . . . this obedience must be a voluntary submission on her part, and that only to her own husband, not to every man."

"Head" does not mean male dominance, where a man lords it over a woman and demands her total obedience to his every wish and command. God never viewed women as second-class citizens. His Word clearly states that we are all equally His children and are of equal value and worth before Him. As Galatians 3:28 tells us, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28).

The teaching of the New Testament clearly shows that women are to be respected, revered, and treated as equals with men. Unfortunately, many husbands have not gotten the message. They degrade their wives by neglect or with insensitive and abusive treatment. One cause of the feminist movement may have been that men abandoned God's design. When God presented Eve to Adam in the Garden, Adam received her as a gift of great value to God and him. When husbands, particularly Christian husbands, do not treat their wives as a precious gift from God and helpmate, they can cause those wives to search for a way to find significance and value as persons, often outside God's will.

Are you a leader? Men who are "natural" leaders have no trouble answering the question, yes. They know how to take over, control, guide, and get things done. Some men are not strong or natural leaders. How can they lead in the home?

Paul says the same to everyone. God has placed the husband in the position of responsibility. It does not matter what kind of personality a man may have. Your wife may be resisting you, fighting you, and spurning your attempts to lead, but it makes no difference. I believe our wives want us and need us to lead. You are not demanding this position; on the contrary, God placed you there. You will not lead her perfectly, but you must care for you wife and family by serving them with perseverance.

Scripture does more than assign leadership in a marriage to the husband, however. Those same passages you just read also provide a model for that leadership. The Apostle Paul says that the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the church. "This comparison of the husband with Christ reveals the sense in which a man should be his wife's "head." Hendriksen writes, "He is her head as being vitally interested in her welfare. He is her protector. His pattern is Christ Who, as head of the Church, is its Savior!"

Let's look more closely at two responsibilities that flow out of proper leadership.

[OkToBeTakei]

Let's look more closely at two responsibilities that flow out of proper leadership.

[Angharad Crewe]

I can't speak for her, but I will speak for myself. Daughter 1 was not a woman when this decision was made- she was a young child. It was her parents responsibility to make decisions on her behalf.

These are the words she used to describe her issues with body image:

Ken has asserted that those issues stemmed from her being a ballerina.

I can only speak for myself, but if my young child was suffering in this manner in the service of "following a dream" I would immediately pull them out.

For us as parents, this was never an option to begin with. I tend to agree with Ken that the more serious dance companies can put their dancers under extreme pressure to look a certain way and to be a certain weight. This was not something we were willing to subject our daughter to.

Daughter 1 pursued dance after turning 18 and despite her parent's misgivings about having a professional dancing career. While it may not have initially been her choice to sign up for her first dance class when she was a kid, it was a conscious choice to pursue dance as an adult.

In almost every sport in high school, I saw girls who were concerned about their weight as it affected performance, especially sports like cross country running and in some instances, swimming.* I definitely agree that you need to use your own discretion as parents and either pull your kid out of an activity that is harming them or not let them sign up to begin with. However, I don't think that dancing, swimming, or running are inherently evil activities that are absolutely going to lead to eating disorders especially because there is a wide range of biological and environmental causes that contribute to eating disorders. It totally depends on what is right for someone as an individual and it is awesome that you know your family well enough to make good decisions for them (to Koala).

* As a high school student I also had a skewed body image, although I did not develop an eating disorder. Ultimately I was able to develop a much healthier body image in my early 20s. Unfortunately, I don't think it is uncommon for girls to feel like they are overweight, even when they are healthy or somewhat underweight.

[Ken]

Good morning, Ken! Your postcount/day is up to 13.75.

Or is that slanderous?

Is there a cost or limit to the number of times someone posts here? If I get 13 questions should I just pick and choose which ones to answer. I am going to have to do that, but I just hate seeing mischaracterizations and misunderstandings go unanswered. So sorry, I will get my count down dramatically soon.

[GeoBQn]

Has anyone noticed the new disclaimer on Lori's blog?

I notice that it does not include the terms "psychologist" or "marriage counselor."

[Ken]

75% of parents? Where exactly is this statistic from?

'Sweden was the first country to pass a ban on corporal punishment in 1979, and quite aside from impressive child health and education indicators, it is clear that the country has not descended into anarchy as a result of this “lack of discipline.†It is noteworthy that Sweden’s standard of living has been described by economists as “enviable,†fuelled by a “skilled labor force†(including a substantial number of workers born after the absolute spanking ban). Moreover, the economic downturn that is engulfing all of Europe is projected to be relatively short-lived in Sweden. In other words: either it pays off to be throwing fits, or else the ban on spanking does not really produce lazy, fit-throwing adults after all.'

Because..the bible?

Just Google and find the stats ... They are pretty consistent between 70-80% of parents have spanked their kids.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/08/living/pa ... panking-p/

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 6491383915

I am not a huge spanking advocate, which may surprise you. I would much rather solve discipline issues in other ways, and I cannot recall spanking any one of my children more than twice, but I am sure it may have been 3-4 times for a couple of the stronger willed ones. Almost always a spanking was reserved for out right defiance, or significant misconduct after being warned. I see many benefits with spanking correctly, but maybe this is another area that because some parents cannot do it responsibly we scream for gov't to jump into our homes and set a speed limit for all things. I can't wait for Coca-Cola to be banned in all homes... I mean sugar and caffeine, do you know what that does to kids. Awful stuff. The sugar in the juices too cause far more harm to the body than any spanking I gave to my children. The list could go on with the mindless snaps and artificial foods which are the regular diet of kids across the USA. If you want to crusade for something, get gov't to legislate one meal a day of real cooked food for every child from a parent. Many are not getting it.

I see the Bible requiring Christians to raise disciplined children, not necessarily spank. I have said that I see nothing godly about spanking itself, but training in discipline is godly. Some, but not all kids, may respond well to spankings and learn discipline at a younger age and more life shaping discipline. I am completely opposed to spanking done poorly, or abusively, but hate the idea that because some may do it badly, I as a responsible and loving parent, cannot use it at all.

There is a huge efficiency in it when you are trying to raise a large family. You do not have the time or energy to sit at the top of the stairs putting the kid back in bed every 15 minutes when a swat would solve the whole ordeal.

[formergothardite]

Is there a cost or limit to the number of times someone posts here? If I get 13 questions should I just pick and choose which ones to answer. I am going to have to do that, but I just hate seeing mischaracterizations and misunderstandings go unanswered. So sorry, I will get my count down dramatically soon.

You snarky devil. :lol: You fit in just fine here. And I'm not insulting you. I can't really talk when it comes to having a high post count.

There are certain blessings that come from doing things God's ways

If those blessing include being treated the way Cabinet Man treats his wife or being "disciplined" by my husband, I am so glad I have avoided God's blessings. You praising CM has done much to make me glad that I'm not in a Christian marriage. I read that and thank my lucky stars that I'm not in one of these "blessed" marriages with a "godly" husband.

Do you still consider SSM a godly writer? Is Lori going to post anything to let her readers know that she was unaware that SSM promoted rape and she does not support or condone that sort of behavior?

[OkToBeTakei]

Just Google and find the stats ... They are pretty consistent between 70-80% of parents have spanked their kids.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/08/living/pa ... panking-p/

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 6491383915

I am not a huge spanking advocate, which may surprise you. I would much rather solve discipline issues in other ways, and I cannot recall spanking any one of my children more than twice, but I am sure it may have been 3-4 times for a couple of the stronger willed ones. Almost always a spanking was reserved for out right defiance, or significant misconduct after being warned. I see many benefits with spanking correctly, but maybe this is another area that because some parents cannot do it responsibly we scream for gov't to jump into our homes and set a speed limit for all things. I can't wait for Coca-Cola to be banned in all homes... I mean sugar and caffeine, do you know what that does to kids. Awful stuff. The sugar in the juices too cause far more harm to the body than any spanking I gave to my children. The list could go on with the mindless snaps and artificial foods which are the regular diet of kids across the USA. If you want to crusade for something, get gov't to legislate one meal a day of real cooked food for every child from a parent. Many are not getting it.

I see the Bible requiring Christians to raise disciplined children, not necessarily spank. I have said that I see nothing godly about spanking itself, but training in discipline is godly. Some, but not all kids, may respond well to spankings and learn discipline at a younger age and more life shaping discipline. I am completely opposed to spanking done poorly, or abusively, but hate the idea that because some may do it badly, I as a responsible and loving parent, cannot use it at all.

There is a huge efficiency in it when you are trying to raise a large family. You do not have the time or energy to sit at the top of the stairs putting the kid back in bed every 15 minutes when a swat would solve the whole ordeal.

Both those articles you quoted are merely talking about the USA. I suspected as much when you initially said the statistic. I am not from the US.

GMO foods are banned in Europe.

Coca-Cola actually is not allowed to be sold in primary schools and if a parent cannot provide a hot meal a day for a child my evil government does. It's not even a socialist government.

The world is bigger than your back garden Ken. I'm sure you know that as you say you have travelled. You come across as very ignorant in that department I'm afraid.

[dairyfreelife]

Both those articles you quoted are merely talking about the USA. I suspected as much when you initially said the statistic. I am not from the US.

GMO foods are banned in Europe.

Coca-Cola actually is not allowed to be sold in primary schools and if a parent cannot provide a hot meal a day for a child my evil government does. It's not even a socialist government.

The world is bigger than your back garden Ken. I'm sure you know that as you say you have travelled. You come across as very ignorant in that department I'm afraid.

Bolded-sodas are now not allowed in our local primary and secondary schools. We also have high obesity rates in my state, second only to Mississippi, so that was part of the reason. And all students who live more than a mile from the school or maybe it was a 1/2 mile, can't recall, get free transportation to and from school and all children can have breakfast and lunch no matter if the parents can pay. Children have a card and a number they scan and parents who can pay or are on a reduced lunch payment get a bill at the end of the month so no child ever gets food thrown away from lack of payment or forgotten lunch money. This is because children who are not hungry pay more attention and do better in the classroom. And socialist government we definitely are not. I'm east coast US.

[OkToBeTakei]

Bolded-sodas are now not allowed in our local primary and secondary schools. We also have high obesity rates in my state, second only to Mississippi, so that was part of the reason. And all students who live more than a mile from the school or maybe it was a 1/2 mile, can't recall, get free transportation to and from school and all children can have breakfast and lunch no matter if the parents can pay. Children have a card and a number they scan and parents who can pay or are on a reduced lunch payment get a bill at the end of the month so no child ever gets food thrown away from lack of payment or forgotten lunch money. This is because children who are not hungry pay more attention and do better in the classroom. And socialist government we definitely are not. I'm east coast US.

I am aware. I've had many enlightening conversations on these subjects as have you on this forum. I just wonder though who or what audience does Ken think he is talking/preaching to. It just seems so so patronising. Even more so when even citizens from his own demographic point it out :think:

[Nettie]

Ken, I looked at the article you linked to and found the "story" it started with off putting and I Couldn't get any further - I see nothing funny or instructional in it. It just perpetuates the idea that if a man isn't being the leader in a mariage it must be because his wife is dominating him. That may well be not what the article goes on to say but I had no desire to read further.

I find it very difficult to believe that our marriage of equals is seen by God as a lesser sort of Christian marriage because we discuss things rather than me being submissive.

[Ken]

My purpose is multiple things, but what really put me on here was when I came by, which I have done about once a year for three years, and heard some comments that showed what appeared to be genuine concern for our family. I think I can now see a little different side to this Forum, that aside from a few, probably the vast majority on this Forum are just concerned people who look into the Fundie worldview and see certain abuses, and want to try to stop these abuses. Some of you here have real hurts that come from the church. I get it.

So my second purpose was to see if by being open with you and giving you a clearer picture, you might see what I see. That there are billions of Christians in the world, and some are true believers, and some are not. Some of the ones who are not true believers are perhaps those who use the Bible to control and dominate others. That is so far from Lori's intent, but I can see now how you can lump her into that group, because she teaches submission and spanking. A Biblical marriage is superior to an "equal" marriage because as I love and make may wife more important than myself, and she chooses to submit, the goal is to give each other 100% of ourselves, not 50-50%. My marriage has gone from 25 miles and hour to over 80 an hour with getting out of our equal marriage and moving to a more Biblical model. Don't get me wrong, an equal marriage is pretty close and works great for most Christians, but it is not God's ideal. His ideal is found in how Christ submits to the Father, and the Father exults the Son. They are equal in nature, but they play two different roles.

"Father, if it is your will, take this cup from me." This is the God of the universe asking His father to remove the path of cross from Him, yet the Father knew it was the better way. With the model of Christ, why is submission such a bad thing in a healthy marriage?

I will need to spend some time looking into Patriarchy and other abuses that you all claim are in Fundie churches and families everywhere. I was born to Fundie parents, I grew up in the church and have attended many churches, and I have yet to see the abuse you speak of. I know it must exist, I need to look more into it. So another purpose for being on here was to see what all the excitement is about.

For all other marriages I simply say "please one another" ... Get rid of selfishness and please the person you say you love the most in this entire world. Life is too short to not seek the best interest in your spouse and put aside your own selfish interests to do so.

Submission of a wife to a husband is a strong Biblically accurate concept, so we can't avoid it if we are to believe and live out all of God's Word. As I said before, 98% of submission could be summed up in "please your husband" which everyone here should want to do. The last 2% really has to do with a wife loving her husband enough to respect his final decision in cases where the two simply cannot agree and the arguing over it becomes endless. Thee is also a dynamic that is created when such harmony exists which leads to God's blessings on those who do things His way. But many Christian families never achieve a fully Biblical marriage and that is OK. We are all a work in process, and we will not get everything right. The women who read Lori's blog do so because they want to get their marriages as close to Biblical and God's ways as possible. This is not all things to all marriages, just for those who want a fully Biblical marriage.

The last reason is that I believe that constructive criticism can be your best friend if you are not afraid of it. I have received some constructive criticism and a lot of "garbage" from some here and I try to sift through it to find ways that I as a true Believer can better represent Christ to the world. I will not step in and control Lori and make her do something with her blog that she is not sensing is of God and a part of her ministry. Not that she would not let me, because she has said at times that she would shut the blog down if I asked her to. To do that or anything of the sort would be to become the man many of you speculated existed before I started posting.

So, my days are numbered here with you, but I have learned some things, and I see you in a little different light. I hope you feel the same about me and my family, but if not, I still wish each one of you the best, and hope that you will remember that tolerance goes both ways. Please forgive me the times I have not been polite or kind in return to somethings that were written to or about me. I pray each time I get on here that my words might be honorable.

And no I can't keep up with all the questions... so I will be back and may pick and choose, or just watch and see what I can learn.

[Coconut Flan]

I refer you to this article and a million others on a husband's role in a Christian marriage and it lists Leader as the first part of the role.

A million, Ken? Yes, I'll keep calling you on hyperbole and exaggeration.

Actual facts make a much better impression and argument.

Further, your justification for wifely submission is Paul, Paul, and more Paul. Paul was not an apostle.

Peter even disagreed with him at times.

There's a good book for your future reading called What Paul Meant by Garry Wills. It explains some of the culture, situations, background, and historical authenticity of things Paul allegedly said.

It's a become a personal thing with me but two things in churches give me major unease. One is if the pulpit is the most prominent feature of the altar area. That tells me it's a church of man with emphasis on a man of this earth preaching not a congregation worshipping God. The second is if most of what I hear is either from the Hebrew scriptures or from Paul. Then it's usually a church of rules (like the Pharisees) not of Christ. For some strange reason the two frequently occur together.

[Ken]

Ken, I looked at the article you linked to and found the "story" it started with off putting and I Couldn't get any further - I see nothing funny or instructional in it. It just perpetuates the idea that if a man isn't being the leader in a marriage it must be because his wife is dominating him. That may well be not what the article goes on to say but I had no desire to read further.

I find it very difficult to believe that our marriage of equals is seen by God as a lesser sort of Christian marriage because we discuss things rather than me being submissive.

A healthy discussion is vital to a great marriage. What you write shows me that you still do not get what the Biblical concept of submission is about. Do your own research, and you may find that you are indeed already a submissive wife, you just never put it into those words. Do you honor and respect your husband? Do you communicate life to him and encouragement and hope, or do you give off negativity? If he felt strongly that you needed to move out of the state and away from family, would you joyfully follow him after many discussions could not resolve the impasse? If you say yes to all of these, my guess is you are a godly submissive wife! It is pretty much that simple. (and I will no go through his list to be a loving husband, but it is longer than yours).

We truly are not in the business of trying to get Christian women everywhere to understand fully the Biblical concept of submission and practice it. If you have a great Christian marriage that works for you two, that is fantastic! I say keep it just the way it is, and as long as it is God honoring and in harmony, you will reap the blessings of God. For those Believers who desire to explore more about what the Bible teaches in submission, is it so bad that they do so going to Lori's blog? What do you say to the hundreds of readers each year who say their marriage was radically changed when they began practicing what Lori writes about? I will guess that most have finally achieved a 50-50% marriage and they are loving have peace in the way they deal with each other.

It is really up to you to decide if you want to explore more about what the Bible teaches on this important marriage concept. And I apologize if the guy was not Biblically accurate. I just picked the first one that made sense in the Google list as there are hundreds of articles on the subject and at first glance he seemed to have it right Biblically. Sorry...

[samurai_sarah]

Look, at the end of the day, I don't care what you believe. Think that your marriage is superior to mine? Fine by me. Different strokes and all that. What I do care about is that Lori gives potentially harmful, blanket advice to potentially vulnerable people! To put it bluntly: Stop it, before someone gets hurt, because they listened to you!!! Are you really so selfish and self-aggrandizing that you would continue to give out advice, if you knew that it could hurt just one person? In my books, that's one person too many. But then, I'm not a "Christian", so what would I know...

P.S.: This is no reflection on Christians, but on "Christian" as per Ken's standards.

[Hisey]

Ken, you post like you hold reasonable position on corporal punishment. So I'd really like to understand this post better:

The first time our children had a temper tantrum or refused to obey us, around 18 months, Ken and I would take turns telling them to pick up the toys {or whatever they were refusing to do} and then give them a swat on their bottom if they wouldn't do it.

Lori finishes up by saying this:

With all four of our children, it took almost four long, difficult hours.

Can you help me understand this? It is very different that what you said, that you gave the kids an occasional rare "swat."

[latraviata]

A Biblical marriage is superior to an "equal" marriage because as I love and make may wife more important than myself, and she chooses to submit, the goal is to give each other 100% of ourselves, not 50-50%.

Marriage is not an economic or mathematical model.

In an equal marriage (as my marriage was, I am a widow) we tried to make each other as happy as possible which takes a lot of effort and.....compromise.

Giving 100% of ourselves so to speak. It is very kind to love and accept your spouse with whatever flaws he may have and be loved back in the same fashion than a sort of biblical enforced concept with a tribal and primitive hierarchy.

Why do you think a biblical marriage is superior to an equal marriage whatever that means?

The divorce rate amongst christians particularly the fundamentalistic brand is significantly higher than let's call it a 'secular marriage'.

http://www.salon.com/2013/11/01/atheist ... s_partner/

[Ken]

A million, Ken? Yes, I'll keep calling you on hyperbole and exaggeration.

Actual facts make a much better impression and argument.

Further, your justification for wifely submission is Paul, Paul, and more Paul. Paul was not an apostle.

Peter even disagreed with him at times.

There's a good book for your future reading called What Paul Meant by Garry Wills. It explains some of the culture, situations, background, and historical authenticity of things Paul allegedly said.

It's a become a personal thing with me but two things in churches give me major unease. One is if the pulpit is the most prominent feature of the altar area. That tells me it's a church of man with emphasis on a man of this earth preaching not a congregation worshipping God. The second is if most of what I hear is either from the Hebrew scriptures or from Paul. Then it's usually a church of rules (like the Pharisees) not of Christ. For some strange reason the two frequently occur together.

I so wish I could paste the image in but none of my buttons work.

So I Goggled this ... husband's role in christian marriage

Results in .40 seconds 5,720,000.

Now out of those 5,720,000 I am sure that Google got some wrong, and some duplicates, but there is no pastor in any church who goes longer than a year before teaching this lesson, especially on Father's Day where they tend to blister the men for not doing their role properly and leading with love. Tough to tell how many really at this point in time, but I am sticking with $1,000.000 and will include the bad ones to get my count up :)

We are now between churches, but neither have a pulpit... precisely because you are correct on the first count.

It is true that most of Bible doctrine is best explained by the great Jewish Scholar, The Apostle Paul. He was the only one trained as a Jewish Scholar which takes a huge amount of education. But although he illuminates God's Word and Theology the best, can you tell me one major theme of the New Testament Bible, including a wife's submission that is not taught somewhere else in the New Testament? I can't think of any. Look up what Peter says about submission and he was stronger in his arguments and teaching on the subject than Paul. Then look at what Christ says about all of us being willing to "lay down our life" serve others" "wash each others feet" and tell me that should not apply from a wife to a husband? Don't misunderstand it goes both ways with serving and loving, but it is Peter and Paul who founded the church based on what the Holy Spirit spoke to them.

But I get you...

I Peter 3:1-6: "Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. 4 Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. 5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear."

[Nettie]

Ken, in nearly 18 years of marriage there has never been a situation where the discussion has been endless and we simply cannot agree. That's including discussions on children, where we live, work and making some radical changes to his career. We have always reached an agreement we are both happy with through talking honestly.