Jahi McMath case in California

[maple802]

I'm Catholic. What's being done to this poor little girl's body is neither required by, nor consistent with, church teaching. I pray for her eternal rest. And I pray that someone is able to reach this family in a way that will allow them to accept her death and to treat her remains with dignity.

http://www.ncbcenter.org/page.aspx?pid=1285#whyAccept

http://www.ncbcenter.org/resources/jahi ... n-of-death

My apologies if these links have already been posted.

[C Potter-Pirbright]

Thanks Buzzard and everyone else for answering my questions.

As far as I know Jahi has 2 if not 3 sisters. One is older and this appears to be her twitter.com/briazaire (mods please break the link if I haven't) . She has/had a instagram with photos of Jahi at least 10 hours ago but that might have been deleted. From what I can tell this girl certainly believes her sister will wake up , healed as well. She also says she's had a lot of people telling her that Jahi is dead, but they are just haters. I've also seen a photo of a younger one supposedly aged 9 at a few of the earlier protests while Jahi was still at CHO.

I feel terrible for these kids, the entire family really but the kids the most, I know what its like to wish someone would wake up but know that they are gone. I don;t think anyone can ever tell anyone how to grieve , except if its harming others ( especially children )surely someone should speak up? My niece (then 8) believed that even if her father died he would return after a few days just as Jesus, ( it didn't help that he died just before Easter), between cartoons and sunday school she was sure he would return and would tell everyone this. It was hard to explain to her that he wouldn't, but we did.

This family, I wonder if mom at least now feels she can't back down?

[julihoop]

For what it's worth, I'm a social worker at a hospital and we are encouraged to use the word "dying" rather than any euphemisms. It's late and I don't really do much bereavement work, so I couldn't tell you the specific reasoning why - my guess is that it's related to acceptance, processing and reluctance to talk about death in our society - but I know that with kids, it's important to be very concrete, as their thought process is very concrete (i.e. a patient who had a loss well into her pregnancy told her 4 year old daughter that they had "lost the baby" and she got mad because the mom should have been holding the baby's hand so it wouldn't get lost). So the confusion, pain and grief that Jahi's sibling(s) must be going through is tremendous, particularly if they're younger. There's normal reactions to grief, but this is crossed that a long time ago.

Anyway, back to my lurking cave I go.

[Stephanie66]

It is unfortunate that the death was so sudden, so they weren't able to involve hospice. Showtime had a GREAT (but tear-jerking) series called "Time of Death" that involved people (and their families) going through the dying process. The last one was particularly horrible because it was a teenager who was dying, she had younger sisters, AND SHE refused to accept that she was terminally ill. So although her family accepted it, she didn't. Like a reverse Jahi. They couldn't even discuss her dying around her or anything. But everyone around her had time to accept it and adjust.

Perhaps the suddenness of this has caused her mother to have this break from reality, but it is hard to believe that everyone else has also had the same break from reality, including her older sister and uncle. Where are Jahi's grandparents or ANYONE to tell them that this is insane? My mom would have bitch-slapped me weeks ago.

[CrazyCatLady]

This article made me realize just how risky of a procudure Jahi went through

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23842193

Wish i could read the whole article. Anyone have access to the full version?

[Coconut Flan]

Grandma sounded like she was on the crazy train, too. She seems to be encouraging the belief that a miracle can or will happen. Since she was or is a nurse, that makes it even more strange.

[Trynn]

For what it's worth, I'm a social worker at a hospital and we are encouraged to use the word "dying" rather than any euphemisms. It's late and I don't really do much bereavement work, so I couldn't tell you the specific reasoning why - my guess is that it's related to acceptance, processing and reluctance to talk about death in our society - but I know that with kids, it's important to be very concrete, as their thought process is very concrete (i.e. a patient who had a loss well into her pregnancy told her 4 year old daughter that they had "lost the baby" and she got mad because the mom should have been holding the baby's hand so it wouldn't get lost). So the confusion, pain and grief that Jahi's sibling(s) must be going through is tremendous, particularly if they're younger. There's normal reactions to grief, but this is crossed that a long time ago.

Anyway, back to my lurking cave I go.

That is exactly the reason. In EMT class they explained it like, learning your loved one is dead can be pretty traumatic, and so you need to be as direct as possible while still being kind.

Plus, if a person's first language is not English, our euphemisms might be more confusing than helpful.

[Cleopatra7]

This case sort of reminds me of instances that you hear about occasionally where a child or some other person within a religious group dies and the pastor attempts to resurrect it through the power of prayer. This usually happens in small, fringe groups and not within seemingly mainstream Christians, but this mindset of wanting a miracle in the face of hopeless odds is common. Maybe Jahi's mom could end up like the mother in this case, projecting her own pious delusions onto her daughter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audrey_Santo

(link not broken because it's wikipedia)

[gustava]

This article made me realize just how risky of a procudure Jahi went through

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23842193

Wish i could read the whole article. Anyone have access to the full version?

Thanks for the link. Even this summary of the study indicates serious concerns about the surgery.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I can understand them wanting and desperately praying for a miracle. But once we're into the realm of "God can bring her back" then surely he can bring her back even if she were taken off the machines and buried, too?

[starfish]

Here is a link to the article that mentions the faith leaders and their call to require the dr to attend sensitivity training. They also want the local DA to investigate.

Investigate what? A poor outcome? Geez.

[PhiMuLady]

This article made me realize just how risky of a procudure Jahi went through

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23842193

Wish i could read the whole article. Anyone have access to the full version?

Still an abstract, but a little more detail.

Accession Number 00000539-900000000-98626.

Author Cote, Charles J. MD *; Posner, Karen L. PhD +; Domino, Karen B. MD, MPH +

Institution From the (*)Department of Anesthesia, Critical Care, and Pain Medicine, Harvard Medical School/The MassGeneral Hospital for Children, Boston, Massachusetts; and (+)Department of Anesthesiology and Pain Medicine, University of Washington, Seattle, Washington.

Title Death or Neurologic Injury After Tonsillectomy in Children with a Focus on Obstructive Sleep Apnea: Houston, We Have a Problem![Report]

Source Anesthesia & Analgesia.

Status Publish Ahead of Print, POST AUTHOR CORRECTIONS, 10 July 2013

Abstract BACKGROUND: Obesity is epidemic in the United States and with it comes an increased incidence of obstructive sleep apnea (OSA). Evidence regarding opioid sensitivity as well as recent descriptions of deaths after tonsillectomy prompted a survey of all members of the Society for Pediatric Anesthesia regarding adverse events in children undergoing tonsillectomy.

METHODS: An electronic survey was sent to 2377 members of the Society for Pediatric Anesthesia. Additionally, data from the American Society of Anesthesiologists Closed Claims Project were obtained. Adverse events during or after tonsillectomy with or without adenoidectomy in children were included. Children at risk for OSA were identified as either having a positive history for OSA or a post hoc application of the American Society of Anesthesiologists OSA practice guidelines. These children were compared with all other children by Fisher exact test for proportions and t test for continuous variables.

RESULTS: A total of 129 cases were identified from the 731 replies to the survey, with 92 meeting inclusion criteria for having adequate data. Another 19 cases with adequate data were identified from the 45 from the American Society of Anesthesiologists Closed Claims Project. A total of 111 cases were included in the final analysis. Death and permanent neurologic injury occurred in 86 (77%) cases and were reported in the operating room, postanesthesia care unit, on the ward, and at home. Sixty-three (57%) children fulfilled American Society of Anesthesiologists criteria to be at risk for OSA. Children categorized as at risk for OSA were more likely than other children to be obese and to have comorbidities (P < 0.0001). A larger proportion of at risk children had the event attributed to apnea (P = 0.016), whereas all others had a larger proportion of events attributed to hemorrhage (P = 0.006).

CONCLUSIONS: Deaths or neurologic injury after tonsillectomy due to apparent apnea in children suggest that at least 16 children could have been rescued had respiratory monitoring been continued throughout first- and second-stage recovery, as well as on the ward during the first postoperative night. A validated pediatric-specific risk assessment scoring system is needed to assist with identifying children at risk for OSA who are not appropriate to be cared for on an outpatient basis.

© 2014 International Anesthesia Research Society

Language English.

Document Type Research Report: PDF Only.

Journal Subset Nursing. Clinical Medicine.

ISSN 0003-2999

NLM Journal Code 4r8, 1310650

DOI Number 10.1213/ANE.0b013e318294fc47

[gustava]

Here is a link to the article that mentions the faith leaders and their call to require the dr to attend sensitivity training. They also want the local DA to investigate.

Investigate what? A poor outcome? Geez.

Link, please?

[starfish]

Here is a link to the article that mentions the faith leaders and their call to require the dr to attend sensitivity training. They also want the local DA to investigate.

Investigate what? A poor outcome? Geez.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-new ... -jahi-case

[gustava]

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-new ... -jahi-case

Thanks. That was interesting.

[Coconut Flan]

“The school told us that she’s not officially dead yet,†said Dymond Allen, one of Jahi's friends at EC Reems Academy of Technology and Arts in East Oakland. “And we should keep her in our prayers. I still hope. And God has the last say-so.â€

The academy's chief operating officer Lisa Blair said she has tried to honor Jahi's family's wishes by telling students that their classmate may still be alive, even though doctors say she is legally and clinically dead.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Ja ... 29891.html

If I were a parent of a child there I believe I'd be upset and telling the child that yes a death certificate means she's dead.

One of my fundie neighbors and I were talking today and she said well you can't rule out prayer. I asked her when was the last time God raised the dead. Anyone in the last say 10 to 15 centuries? She said well I think she should be buried and put to rest but I understand her mother not wanting to give up.

[Jesus Camp Counselor]

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Ja ... 29891.html

If I were a parent of a child there I believe I'd be upset and telling the child that yes a death certificate means she's dead.

One of my fundie neighbors and I were talking today and she said well you can't rule out prayer. I asked her when was the last time God raised the dead. Anyone in the last say 10 to 15 centuries? She said well I think she should be buried and put to rest but I understand her mother not wanting to give up.

So the school is telling the kids to ignore science and medicine? The school is actually going along with "she's dead but praying might bring her back?" It really makes me angry that the family is now convincing a whole school to carry on their delusion. Science deniers of any type infuriate me.

This situation needs to end immediately not just to give Jahi some dignity but to stop this delusion from spreading to even more people.

[salex]

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Ja ... 29891.html the article also mentions Jahi's siblings An older sister, a younger brother and a younger sister.

Jahi has been part of the school's “extended†family for more than a decade. Jahi’s older sister, Jabria Milsap, now 20, graduated in 2009 as valedictorian. Her brother, Jose Llamas, is now in fourth grade at the school. Jahi's younger sister, Jordyn Johnson, is in kindergarten.

[Beammeup]

I'd be livid if my daughter's school was lying to the students about something as fundamentally basic as this. Dead is dead. It's especially cruel to kids to give them hope that their friend might be coming back. The chaos and crap this family is creating keeps growing.

[Arete]

The school, the extended family, they both talk about respecting her mother's wishes. It is NOT respect to humor someone about her child's death. Somehow we have come to equate respect with agreement. It is not inherently disrespectful or insensitive to tell the truth. There is more hurt and damage being done here in the name of "respect" than would have occurred if the people closest to the mother had simply helped her face the truth.

The mother believes that if she just doesn't have a funeral, her daughter won't really be dead. Anyone who has lost a loved one suddenly can understand. It is the funeral you fear more than anything, the funeral you wish you could avoid. Except most of us are fortunate enough to have people in our lives who will snatch us back from the abyss and guide us back to sanity. No one in this poor woman's life seems to have the courage to take on that role.

Disgrace!

[Coconut Flan]

The number and cross-section of people aiding and abetting her delusion is astounding. The judge who first of all should know better, the lawyer who may have ulterior motives, the school again who should know better, the supposed religious leaders who either want notice or have an ax to grind or dare I say are scientifically clueless and should bow out, plus her family whose job it should be to help her find reality rather than talking to the interviewers and perpetuating nonsense.

It's all not respecting anyone.

[AmericanAmigo]

Extending this sad case to the children is unspeakable.

[Terrie]

This is not respecting the mother's wishes. This is enabling her break from reality. I wonder if the school is afraid she'll sue them if they tell kids the truth.

[Sumeri]

This whole situation makes my heart hurt. I'm afraid this mother has had a severe break with reality and everyone enabling this horror show should be charged.

When you lose a loved one suddenly, it is amazing what craziness you can easily think and believe. When my fiancé died I WATCHED it happen, I was there during all attempts to resuscitate him, and I followed his ambulance to the hospital -- and I STILL spent that trip thinking that surely something would happen that would make him alive again. The difference was I had family and friends and emergency responders there to make sure that I was thinking clearly and to support me when the doctor confirmed yes, he was dead and there was nothing further that could be done. Now imagine if in that state I had a group of people saying, "Nope! He just has a brain injury! He's looking better and better!" The people who own this "care center" are ghouls.

[uber frau]

I think the school is stuck between a rock and a hard place here. If they tell the kids she's dead and not coming back they'll be outrage for their insensitivity and overstepping their role (besides, a decent percentage of the population seems not to realise what brain death actually means), if they say she's not coming back but sometimes unexpected things happen, they (rightly) get pulled up for lying.

On the other hand, kids have a right to answers and they can't say nothing. I think it's an all round shitty situation.