Jahi McMath case in California

[ILoveJellybeans]

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Ja ... 29891.html the article also mentions Jahi's siblings An older sister, a younger brother and a younger sister.

Jahi has been part of the school's “extended†family for more than a decade. Jahi’s older sister, Jabria Milsap, now 20, graduated in 2009 as valedictorian. Her brother, Jose Llamas, is now in fourth grade at the school. Jahi's younger sister, Jordyn Johnson, is in kindergarten.

Oh God, theres a fourth grader and kindergartener involved in this :(

That's horrible, imagine being five years old and not only losing your sister, but having to see the body rot away while your parents insist she is still alive, just sleeping.

[hahe77]

I have a couple of questions and I hope they don't sound insensitive or ignorant.

1. Jahi had sleep apnea and was a big girl. Wouldn't her size have put her at risk for the surgery? Has anyone heard why such an involved and risky surgery was preformed before other measures such as weight loss were done?

2. Is it correct that Jahi now has a feeding tube? On a person who is alive, that is surgery and the patient is put under sedition. Would they have done the same for Jahi and wouldn't that have weakened her heart or effected her already fragile body?

[BoomerLynn]

Oh God, theres a fourth grader and kindergartener involved in this :(

That's horrible, imagine being five years old and not only losing your sister, but having to see the body rot away while your parents insist she is still alive, just sleeping.

I have been following this thread but not commenting but the bolded just made me so sad. I have both a fourth grader and kindergartener and the thought of putting them through something like this just breaks my heart. My kids were there at the hospital with my mom, husband, and me when the doctor came into the waiting area to inform us that my dad had passed. They had put him on a ventilator and the doctor came in to tell us that it would not do any good but we had to make the call. My dad had always told us that he never wanted to be kept alive like that so we didn't even hesitate to tell them to remove it. I didn't want to believe he was gone but I had to. We allowed the kids a chance to go back and give him one last hug (only if they wanted...we did not push) and to say goodbye. I'll never forget the sadness in their eyes that day (they were very close with my dad) The thought of telling any of my kids, especially my 5-year-old, that he was going to wake up get better even though he was not is horrifying to me. Those children should be able to properly say goodbye to their sister and to grieve. Instead they are being given false hope and it will be even more devastating when reality finally does set in. :cry: Why is nobody telling this woman that she needs to let go? I honestly cannot believe so many people are enabling this, to the point of potentially scarring small children for life. It is just cruel.

[twinmama]

The school, the extended family, they both talk about respecting her mother's wishes. It is NOT respect to humor someone about her child's death. Somehow we have come to equate respect with agreement.

I agree 100%. It is in no way respectful to the mother to help her delude herself into thinking her dead child may come back. Respecting her would be helping her see reality, helping her begin to grieve and supporting her when she finally realizes what has happened. And I wish that someone would have a little bit of respect for Jahi, her body, and what is happening to it now.

This case has shocked me in one way. Just like the study that said a freakishly large portion of Americans believe in actual angels, it would appear a ton of otherwise very smart people actually believe people can rise from the dead. I just cannot understand that kind of faith. The kind with NO proof and no basis in any kind of observable reality. What is the point!?!

[twinmama]

I think the school is stuck between a rock and a hard place here. If they tell the kids she's dead and not coming back they'll be outrage for their insensitivity and overstepping their role (besides, a decent percentage of the population seems not to realise what brain death actually means), if they say she's not coming back but sometimes unexpected things happen, they (rightly) get pulled up for lying.

On the other hand, kids have a right to answers and they can't say nothing. I think it's an all round shitty situation.

Isn't it a public school? Their responsibility, IMO, is to science. Teach the children what brain death means, use science to explain it. This nonsense about her possibly being resurrected is insane to teach in a public school.

[Dysfundamental]

Isn't it a public school? Their responsibility, IMO, is to science. Teach the children what brain death means, use science to explain it. This nonsense about her possibly being resurrected is insane to teach in a public school.

Especially because a "technology academy" is likely to have a number of graduates go on to work in health care.

[gustava]

I think the school is stuck between a rock and a hard place here. If they tell the kids she's dead and not coming back they'll be outrage for their insensitivity and overstepping their role (besides, a decent percentage of the population seems not to realise what brain death actually means), if they say she's not coming back but sometimes unexpected things happen, they (rightly) get pulled up for lying.

On the other hand, kids have a right to answers and they can't say nothing. I think it's an all round shitty situation.

I agree that the school doesn't have the right to tell students "Jahi is dead and never coming back." She is dead and she won't come back, but some of these children know the family and may be hearing something different.

And given that at least one physician has said she's not dead (even though she is) and a court has agreed to let her be "treated" as not dead, the school is indeed between a rock and a hard place.

[AmericanAmigo]

If they are between a rock and a hard place perhaps they should treat this as a private family matter, not hold school events and bring in extra counselors for the children.

[Stephanie66]

I agree the school is between a rock and a hard place. BUT, I also agree they should just say nothing. When I was in first grade, a classmate's mother died from drunk driving. (I knew the drunk driving part because my mom was, at the time, an ER nurse was in the hospital when she was brought in. I actually knew his mom died before the rest of the class did. Of course, I didn't know the drunk part until much later.) The school only said that his mom died and he was going to live with relatives, and wouldn't be in our class anymore. If we wanted to contact him, the priest at his church would be happy to forward cards or letters.

And that was that.

It was a very small town, though, and not Oakland. But none of us really needed extra counseling.

I noticed all four kids have different last names and, presumably, different fathers and none are from the step-dad. I hate to be a bitch, but this would be a good time for the youngest two to have their fathers show up and request custody. Those kids need some stability, and maybe the fathers, or their father's families, can offer that.

[ljohnson2006]

This is a sad case all around. Why don't they just let nature take it's course? The poor girl is suffering.

[Coconut Flan]

The poor girl is suffering.

Jahi is past suffering. She's dead. Her mother is basically torturing herself and her family by refusing to accept it. She's also dragging a lot of unnecessary people including children along with her.

[Stephanie66]

Jahi is past suffering. She's dead. Her mother is basically torturing herself and her family by refusing to accept it. She's also dragging a lot of unnecessary people including children along with her.

This. Jahi is not suffering. She's dead. Her younger siblings have to be suffering incredibly, and will be suffering even more when their mother comes to terms with the fact that Jahi is dead. I can't even imagine this happening and what they are going through. The fourth grader is old enough to understand it in simple terms--he probably thinks Jahi has a brain INJURY and will eventually talk and walk again, as this can happen with brain injuries. The Kindergartner probably just thinks Jahi is sick and will get better if they pray hard enough. Oops, didn't pray hard enough.

[salex]

http://www.ktvu.com/videos/news/mcmath- ... rs/vCLZHH/ McMath mother... I had not seen it. This is after second or third brain scan with negative reports

Also, they talked about calling the mayor. And at the end, they talk about the money difference between keeping her on life support vs the $250,000 cap (uncle says "chump change." )

This is dated as "Tuesday" but I gather it is very early, before the court ordered brains scans, and before Christmas.....

[Coconut Flan]

That's the interview where the uncle called the $250K chump change and said the hospital wanted Jahi declared dead so they wouldn't have to pay $30 M to maintain her. Thank you! Her mother was already not caring what anyone said trying to tell her the child was gone. She asked for a third opinion but then in the interview said it didn't matter what the results were she still wanted Jahi kept on the ventilator.

[Stephanie66]

So the uncle is definitely aware that keeping her "alive" is the way to get some money. Except no jury in the world is going to give them money for keeping their corpse on life support.

I did feel for the mom in that footage. She feels guilty and really just can't accept it. She kept saying, "But her heart is beating and she feels warm, so she's not dead." She either doesn't understand or just feels so guilty that she won't understand.

[silverspoons]

I have a feeling that when Jahi body finally shuts down and the parents admit she is gone, they are going to blame the hospital for not giving her the feeding tube fast enough or find some way that the "delay" caused the death.

I also am very surprised about the school having the rally, having the kids wear the shirts, and then quoting children saying they know Jahi will be back in school soon or she will be getting better. A child passed away at my kid's school after a sudden illness and 2 month hospitalization. The kids were just told he was in the hospital and it was about 2 months after the child died, any student that wanted to could go AFTER school to a balloon releasing ceremony. I think if the school felt like they needed to have a rally they should have done it after school or in the evening. That way it would have been a choice. I know they said kids could opt out, but if all your friends are going, would you opt out? Parents might have felt bad for opting a child out. My kids go to an almost 100% LDS school and they have opt out on anything to do with President Obama. I give my kids the signed slip and tell them to do what they want or go which ever way their friends go(this is after my daughter was the only child that sat through the first Obama video and came home in tears). I don't usually put a lot of stock in ratings but the school is rated a 2/10 on great schools. I know in my city I would never let my child attend a 2/10 school. Our city has a charter school that uses almost the identical program as Jahi's school and it is rated a 10/10.

[dora]

I have a feeling that when Jahi body finally shuts down and the parents admit she is gone, they are going to blame the hospital for not giving her the feeding tube fast enough or find some way that the "delay" caused the death.

I also am very surprised about the school having the rally, having the kids wear the shirts, and then quoting children saying they know Jahi will be back in school soon or she will be getting better. A child passed away at my kid's school after a sudden illness and 2 month hospitalization. The kids were just told he was in the hospital and it was about 2 months after the child died, any student that wanted to could go AFTER school to a balloon releasing ceremony. I think if the school felt like they needed to have a rally they should have done it after school or in the evening. That way it would have been a choice. I know they said kids could opt out, but if all your friends are going, would you opt out? Parents might have felt bad for opting a child out. My kids go to an almost 100% LDS school and they have opt out on anything to do with President Obama. I give my kids the signed slip and tell them to do what they want or go which ever way their friends go(this is after my daughter was the only child that sat through the first Obama video and came home in tears). I don't usually put a lot of stock in ratings but the school is rated a 2/10 on great schools. I know in my city I would never let my child attend a 2/10 school. Our city has a charter school that uses almost the identical program as Jahi's school and it is rated a 10/10.

What is it about Obama that made her cry?

[silverspoons]

What is it about Obama that made her cry?

My daughter was 6 and I had no idea that every single child in her class would opt out of the President's video. That was over 125 kids. The other kids all went to other rooms and watched snoopy dvds and had root beer and colored and she was stuck with the mean gym teacher watching the video alone. She came home crying because she missed "the party" and felt like she was punished by having to watch Obama. Since then I found I can't predict what these families will opt in or out of. I can teach my kids at home about "the real world" so I give my kids the opt out forms and tell them to go which ever way their friends go.

In fact a few nights ago we had a family debate over how we all feel about Jahi's situation. My daughter that cried over the video is now 11 and she doesn't believe in heaven(some of my neighbors are horrified that I don't force my daughter to believe in heaven) and had quite a debate with my teenager. Of course sadly my kids can't express these feelings or ideas at school but that is what I have to choose to have my kids at a top academic school.

[Stephanie66]

Off topic, but sorta on topic, Ariel Sharon finally died.

[SheWoreLemon]

I have a couple of questions and I hope they don't sound insensitive or ignorant.

1. Jahi had sleep apnea and was a big girl. Wouldn't her size have put her at risk for the surgery? Has anyone heard why such an involved and risky surgery was preformed before other measures such as weight loss

Anyone who is obese has a greater chance of complications from surgery--heart attack, wound infection, nerve injury and urinary tract infection and hernia (which happened to me). As to why Jahi didn't ev to lose weight before this surgery... none of her hospital records have been released so anything someone says is a guess. It could be that Jahi initially gained weight because of bad diet and lack of exercise, and then she and her family weren't diligent in getting her weight down. However, my mom is being treated for sleep apnea and it turns out that some people are born with really narrow air passageways. So even if you are the right weight, you will still have apnea events (sleep apnea happens when your brain isn't getting enough oxygen as you sleep--it sends a message that makes you gasp for air. That wakes you up enough that you will take a deep breath and hopefully roll over so you can get more air).

That can lead to weight gain because you are so tired in the morning after partially waking up many, many times during the night (I woke up 90 times during the night when I did a sleep apnea test) that it's hard to motivate yourself to exercise. Plus having apnea sends corisol (a stress hormone) into your system--cortisol makes it harder to lose weight. It also seems far easier to throw something in the microwave or stop for fast food when you are too tired to cook.

(By the way, I am not a doctor, this is just how I understood stuff from mom's treatment and my own treatment for sleep apnea). A machine called the c-pap is used to treat most sleep apnea cases. You wear a mask over your face and air is pumped down your throat so you don't have apnea. I couldn't deal with the c-pap machine because it gave me panic attacks. Most people deal with a c-pap fine. I imagine that Jahi also tried a c-pap machine and couldn't tolerate it, but once again we don't have any of her records.

Excessive bleeding like Jahi's happens in about 2.5% of all tonsil cases--enough that I understand most doctors will do anything to avoid surgery in the tonsil area, so I feel quite sure that the surgeons at Children's Hospital didn't see any other options.

[starfish]

Anyone who is obese has a greater chance of complications from surgery--heart attack, wound infection, nerve injury and urinary tract infection and hernia (which happened to me). As to why Jahi didn't ev to lose weight before this surgery... none of her hospital records have been released so anything someone says is a guess. It could be that Jahi initially gained weight because of bad diet and lack of exercise, and then she and her family weren't diligent in getting her weight down. However, my mom is being treated for sleep apnea and it turns out that some people are born with really narrow air passageways. So even if you are the right weight, you will still have apnea events (sleep apnea happens when your brain isn't getting enough oxygen as you sleep--it sends a message that makes you gasp for air. That wakes you up enough that you will take a deep breath and hopefully roll over so you can get more air).

That can lead to weight gain because you are so tired in the morning after partially waking up many, many times during the night (I woke up 90 times during the night when I did a sleep apnea test) that it's hard to motivate yourself to exercise. Plus having apnea sends corisol (a stress hormone) into your system--cortisol makes it harder to lose weight. It also seems far easier to throw something in the microwave or stop for fast food when you are too tired to cook.

(By the way, I am not a doctor, this is just how I understood stuff from mom's treatment and my own treatment for sleep apnea). A machine called the c-pap is used to treat most sleep apnea cases. You wear a mask over your face and air is pumped down your throat so you don't have apnea. I couldn't deal with the c-pap machine because it gave me panic attacks. Most people deal with a c-pap fine. I imagine that Jahi also tried a c-pap machine and couldn't tolerate it, but once again we don't have any of her records.

Excessive bleeding like Jahi's happens in about 2.5% of all tonsil cases--enough that I understand most doctors will do anything to avoid surgery in the tonsil area, so I feel quite sure that the surgeons at Children's Hospital didn't see any other options.

[Dysfundamental]

Obesity can also be contributed to by poor sleep and/or poor oxygenation while awake in children. So the sleep apnea may have been deemed necessary to treat before any weight interventions could be successful.

[fun2beme]

My ENT said I had "border-line" sleep apnea; I showed episodes during the night but not enough or long enough to medically be diagnosed, and said a C-PAP was optional but my insurance probably wouldn't pay for it. I lost 45 lbs. over the next year and the problems I had with sleeping went away. So I guess it's a question of which came first, the chicken or the egg?

[sparkles]

Mr. Sparkles' sleep apnea is considered severe, to the point where I MADE him get it checked out after he gave me a black eye, kicked me and threw me out of bed several times (he also threw himself out on many occasions) when he jerked awake trying to breathe. Eventually, we moved to separate bedrooms because neither one of us could sleep, he because of the apnea and me because of the effects. He's got a gut he could stand to lose, but in no way would anyone call him obese, so I'm not sure how or if his weight factors in. In any event, he does use a CPAP (which kept me awake so we're still in separate rooms) but even that stopped being effective, which is why he had the UPPP. I mentioned upthread that I thought he'd had his tonsils and adenoids out previously but I was wrong--his UPPP was the whole nine yards. He also did say it helped some. Not to the point that he can do without the CPAP but they were able to adjust the levels so that it's back to where it was initially. Because of the severity of his apnea, if he has any procedure that requires sedation (colonoscopy, etc.) it has to be done in a hospital setting. Any SURGICAL procedure that would normally be outpatient (like hernia surgery) requires an overnight hospital stay. Apnea is some real no-foolin'-around stuff, so I'll assume that if Jahi's doctors recommended the UPPP, it was because the benefits outweighed the risks.

[GeoBQn]

I've seen sleep apnea and weight go both ways. My husband's best friend had sleep apnea that caused him to be tired during the day, less active, and have a flat affect. He was misdiagnosed with depression before they found the real issue. Once he got treated for sleep apnea, his mood improved, he had more energy, and he lost weight.

On the other hand, I have a friend with sleep apnea who is also overweight, but her sleep problems did not stop her from having an active lifestyle--including competitive ballroom dancing. Treating her sleep apnea did not change her activity level or her weight. Indeed, she ended up switching treatment centers because she was sick of everyone at her old one constantly saying "Treating sleep apnea will help you lose weight!" after she repeatedly told them to stop saying that to her and she kept pointing out that her weight had not changed.