Abortion and Social Security

[slh12280]

Anybody ever heard this one? "If it weren't for abortion then we would have enough people working now to pay for social security!" Yes, I seriously had a relative say this. The logic there is certainly something.

[Mama Mia]

Perhaps people should lighten up on undocumented workers and let them work over the table, that would certainly help the social security / aging population issues.

[Conuly]

Well, maybe, but how much more would we have had to pay in welfare and food stamps over the years? Not to mention the cost of hiring teachers, and of course some of those children would have ended up in prison....

[RosyDaisy]

Perhaps people should lighten up on undocumented workers and let them work over the table, that would certainly help the social security / aging population issues.

THIS!!!! QFT.…..every single word!!!

[doggie]

undocumented works pay into the system but they just don't get anything back. this is one reason of the overbreeding of the duggers so they will have someone to take care of them.

[Mama Mia]

Well, maybe, but how much more would we have had to pay in welfare and food stamps over the years? Not to mention the cost of hiring teachers, and of course some of those children would have ended up in prison....

Although realistically, most people contribute more into the system than they take out, overall. So the gain of a larger younger working population to support our current aging one is likely a net benefit.

Even when people are collecting welfare or food stamps they are still putting some money back in through sales taxes, plus paying into the economy by buying food, clothing, rent etc, which in turn adds to the amount of employees needed, housing built and so on.

Most financial assistance, other than social security, is time limited, so a person might collect $10,000 over a couple years of cash aid, but then pay another $40,000 in taxes over the rest of their working life. ( random sample amounts ).

Eta: this applies whether the potential workers in question don't exist due to abortion, as in the original topic, or exist but are unseen because they are undocumented.

[Melissa1977]

Most of people just use birth control and decide to have few children. It's birth control what increases/decreases population, not abortion. I'm sure abortion (excluding teens and mothers who abort for health reasons) is not so common.

I mean that prohibiting abortion wouldn't increase population very much. For example, a teen gets pregnant and aborts...probably she will have a child as an adult. If she doesn't abort, she maybe won't have more children because she has already one child. It's a single child at any case.

[slh12280]

It makes no sense, obviously. If I recall correctly, about 80% of abortions are performed on unmarried women. Women, they believe, are not to be having sex anyway, so no babies. Plus, people can still get illegal, unsafe abortions, which would kill more women. Then there is always birth control. So yeah...

[infooverload]

Ah yes my brother in law posted something similar to this statement a while back. I so wanted to say okay, we have to assume a) The mom is going to need no social services, B)The child has no disabilities, C) No one goes to prison, D) All of them stay in the USA and finally all of them pay in. The truth is it would just give more money for politicians to misappropriate into other ventures. After all it's an entitlement program. Funny I didn't remember being able to opt out and I should be entitled to my money. I equate it to opening a savings account only to be told later by the bank of sorry you entered an entitlement program and we wagered it on bad investments. I know you would like the month, but sorry can't help you. This would not fly in the private sector why the hell does it fly with social security.

[Mama Mia]

Ah yes my brother in law posted something similar to this statement a while back. I so wanted to say okay, we have to assume a) The mom is going to need no social services, B)The child has no disabilities, C) No one goes to prison, D) All of them stay in the USA and finally all of them pay in. The truth is it would just give more money for politicians to misappropriate into other ventures. After all it's an entitlement program. Funny I didn't remember being able to opt out and I should be entitled to my money. I equate it to opening a savings account only to be told later by the bank of sorry you entered an entitlement program and we wagered it on bad investments. I know you would like the month, but sorry can't help you. This would not fly in the private sector why the hell does it fly with social security.

That argument doesn't make any sense. People who paid into social security are receiving their social security. No one is being told that they aren't getting their check because of bad investments. However if you had invested it in the stock market you very well could have lost it all, and then what happens once you are too old or ill to work?

Also, for the rest of your examples it isn't all or nothing. People might receive benefits, have a disability or even go to prison and still pay money into the system at different points in their life. Unless someone is in prison long term for a serious crime, or is severely disabled from childhood, they are very likely to work and pay taxes at some point.

[BravaAmica]

Anybody ever heard this one? "If it weren't for abortion then we would have enough people working now to pay for social security!" Yes, I seriously had a relative say this. The logic there is certainly something.

O, definitely! Because employers are going door to door, begging for people to come into work. There are that many jobs available in the US. Not.

[infooverload]

That argument doesn't make any sense. People who paid into social security are receiving their social security. No one is being told that they aren't getting their check because of bad investments. However if you had invested it in the stock market you very well could have lost it all, and then what happens once you are too old or ill to work?

Also, for the rest of your examples it isn't all or nothing. People might receive benefits, have a disability or even go to prison and still pay money into the system at different points in their life. Unless someone is in prison long term for a serious crime, or is severely disabled from childhood, they are very likely to work and pay taxes at some point.

I should have clarified what I was referring to in the above scenario. What I meant is people in good faith and with no other options have put money into social security. Since this is the case I get really irked when people refer to it as an entitlement and politicians find weasly ways to try "restructure" the progam to the disadvantage of the working class. I wasn't saying it was all or nothing with my examples. I was just using those examples to point out just because extra people may have been born doesn't automatically guarantee a healthy social security program.

[Mama Mia]

I should have clarified what I was referring to in the above scenario. What I meant is people in good faith and with no other options have put money into social security. Since this is the case I get really irked when people refer to it as an entitlement and politicians find weasly ways to try "restructure" the progam to the disadvantage of the working class. I wasn't saying it was all or nothing with my examples. I was just using those examples to point out just because extra people may have been born doesn't automatically guarantee a healthy social security program.

That makes more sense, thanks for the clarification. I think part of the problem is shifts in attitude towards certain words. Just the word " entitlement" now has a very negative connotation. But if you think about it Social Security as an " entitlement" just means that people worked hard, they paid money in and now they are entitled to those benefits.

So many words have been stolen by the far right and used for either positive or negative spin. I think they have been very successful in shaping public perception that way, going back to the Moral Majority.

[morfydd]

Anybody ever heard this one? "If it weren't for abortion then we would have enough people working now to pay for social security!" Yes, I seriously had a relative say this. The logic there is certainly something.

1) The 7.5 unemployment rate (and probably higher as it doesn't count people who have dropped out of the job market permanently) gives the lie to the relative's statement.

b) Social Security is funded just fine currently and for the medium future. There's a potential shortfall in several years' time, which can be dealt with by some combination of raising the retirement age, reducing benefits, or raising the contribution cap. (I'm a fan of the last, not the first two.)

iii) As said above, allowing legal immigration would increase the number of workers paying in. (Actually, since many undocumented workers are using SS numbers that are not theirs, they're paying into a system they're not going to take out from, so they're subsidizing SS.)

tl:dr: The relative's statement is dumb. But they're not looking for a logical discussion about it, they're just making a tribal statement. :shrug:

[lizziesmom]

Anybody ever heard this one? "If it weren't for abortion then we would have enough people working now to pay for social security!" Yes, I seriously had a relative say this. The logic there is certainly something.

Well if we had more abortions there would be less people to claim social security. See what I did there?

[halfheartedheroine]

Well if we had more abortions there would be less people to claim social security. See what I did there?

Egads! Logic! But... but... it would mean more people paying in right now, and then just fuck them once they're old enough to collect any money. Totally a permanent solution. /sarcasm/

[Mama Mia]

Egads! Logic! But... but... it would mean more people paying in right now, and then just fuck them once they're old enough to collect any money. Totally a permanent solution. /sarcasm/

I would assume people are talking more about the current / upcoming generational in balance. It really is true that the aging baby boomers are going to put a strain on the resources of much smaller younger generations. People can spin at in any political direction they fancy, but it's an actual issue. Not just for financial reasons, but because of the services and care that are needed with fewer workers to provide it. Over time this will be resolved....the relatively smaller Gen X will be elderly when the similarly sized Gen Y are working at relatively stable careers and paying taxes, and millennialist are working in lower paying service jobs and so on.

Obviously that doesn't mean we should just say tough luck to baby boomers ( I'm on the cusp of baby boom/ gen x, depending on the breakdown) . We definitely need to make sure social security is fully funded and that there are incentives for careers that provide care and services.

[docmom]

Most of people just use birth control and decide to have few children. It's birth control what increases/decreases population, not abortion. I'm sure abortion (excluding teens and mothers who abort for health reasons) is not so common.

I mean that prohibiting abortion wouldn't increase population very much. For example, a teen gets pregnant and aborts...probably she will have a child as an adult. If she doesn't abort, she maybe won't have more children because she has already one child. It's a single child at any case.

This!! The argument assumes that women who choose to have an abortion now will go on to have the same number of children as they would if they had not chosen to end a particular pregnancy. It also assumes that the financial status of those children will be equal. Given that many of these women would end up in less lucrative careers if they had gone ahead with their pregnancies, it is reasonable to assume that their offspring may be fewer and/or also less well off thus actually contributing less to social security.