"Adult children need boundaries from parents"

[InkyGirl]

I was roomates with a child of an overly hover-y parent. My roomate seemed to have no other friends, despite being my age. She would call her mother every single day for hours on end, we're talking 2,3 hour long conversations. MY roommate would call her mom about everything. She was very immature; I'd say more at a middle school level than college. She was socially awkward and made it difficult to live with. However, college was the best thing for her. She finally moved out she has friends and even a boyfriend (though that's a whole other story). She currently working on her master's degree.

[Wolfie]

But I'm still confused as to how it's any sort of incest. Abuse, yes, but not incest. the article fails to explain where the term "emotional incest" comes from, instead mentioning some Freudian crap about mothers possibly not having a husband around. they do not mention fathers not having wives around, and offer no reason as to why mothers control both sons and daughters, but fathers only control daughters. "Psychologists call it emotional incest" erm, what? Which psychologists? And why would they call it that?

And of course they fear abandonment. It's not surprising that a fear of abandonment would manifest itself in emotional abuse. The article comes within a breath of sympathizing with emotionally abusive parents, going on and on about their 'fear of abandonment.' In reality it's no different from what abusive parents of underage children do, in particular helicopter parents. Nobody sympathizes with those parents and just sigh and say "Oh, it's a fear of abandonment." No it fucking isn't. It is an abuser seeking out a victim, slowly sabotaging that victim's independence early on, and getting freaked out that their victim may say "fuck you" and leave, because it means that they have nobody to dominate.

Another flaw in this article is that it states that emotionally "incestuous" parents treat their children like significant others. Um, what? What the hell is the writers' idea of a romantic relationship? It fails to explain how this treatment is in any way incestuous.

Given how poorly this article is written, I have to wonder a) about the psychologists' credentials and b) how the fuck these writers managed to get this published.

This is an accepted psychological term. I don't see why you are getting so hung up on it. I see where the term comes from and it makes perfect sense to me- and you keep claiming that most abusers use emotional manipulation- yep, and if it is a family member doing the abusing, it would also be called "emotional incest. You seem to agree that the abuse happens, and it is abuse, but you're getting all hung up on a term because you can't seem to separate the "sex" part from the word- or you seem to think that it can't be applied to the other cases you've mentioned- if it is a family member, yes it can.

And I totally see how they are treating their victims as significant others- they are depending on them for support and their social lives. No questions there in my mind.

[latraviata]

This is an accepted psychological term. I don't see why you are getting so hung up on it. I see where the term comes from and it makes perfect sense to me- and you keep claiming that most abusers use emotional manipulation- yep, and if it is a family member doing the abusing, it would also be called "emotional incest. You seem to agree that the abuse happens, and it is abuse, but you're getting all hung up on a term because you can't seem to separate the "sex" part from the word- or you seem to think that it can't be applied to the other cases you've mentioned- if it is a family member, yes it can.

You are right Wolfie, unfortunately the world is full of DIY psychologists.

[Kitty]

Well, in my husband's case, it definitely crossed lines both ways. His mother is/was inappropriately affectionate (trying to hug him when he'd step out of the shower in just a towel when he was a teenager and an adult, hanging all over him in the way you would a boyfriend [think of Meredith hanging all over Stephen], etc). She also emotionally treated him like a romantic partner - sharing way too much, etc etc. I think "emotional incest" can be a very appropriate term for these types of situations.

I'm really not trying to say that there aren't cases like that, it's just odd how abuse (helicopter parenting) of a grown child is considered 'incest.' What you described is disturbing and gross but none of the cases in the article were described that way. Controlling parents do take things to inappropriate levels, but not necessarily in ways that are actually incestuous. Why is it incestuous when the child is grown but not when the child is young? It's the exact same thing.

The article seems badly written, so I'm probably getting hung up on that. To me it just sounds like a bunch of journalists and anonymous shrinks trying to come up with a fancy new term for extreme, authoritarian parenting. As I said, the first part is Freudian mumbo-jumbo and the second fails to explain just what an 'emotionally incestuous' parent would do (beyond refusing to give their approval for whatever their kids want to to, and not forming strong bonds with people of the opposite sex, or pointing out weaknesses of their spouses). A LOT of people who abuse their spouses also abuse their children. this is a known fact. Nothing described in this article sounds different from any other kind of emotionally abusive parenting.

To avoid derailing the thread any further, yes, this does sound exactly like our favorite fundie parents- but in a culture that not only condones but MANDATES this sort of parenting, and refuses to let children out of the house until they're married, it's very, very difficult to leave. Another trend in fundie parenting is treating children more like servants, or pets, or fuck, cool new toys. "Look at all of the blessings the Lord gave us!" Fundie parenting absolutely is extreme helicopter parenting/emotional incest/whatever you want to call it, combined with attention-whoring (and from what I can tell, Munchausen-by-proxy in quite a few cases), and possibly trying to live vicariously through their children. It's a bad combination for everyone.

[Courtneyb]

Correct me if I'm wrong but is it called "incest" merely because the problem is taking place between a parent and their child? The term is a little confusing for me too since I have always seen incest defined as sex between close relatives. I've never seen in defined any other way. I get that this is just an accepted term but I also understand where kitty is coming from, it's a really odd way to describe it.

[Beeks]

Correct me if I'm wrong but is it called "incest" merely because the problem is taking place between a parent and their child? The term is a little confusing for me too since I have always seen incest defined as sex between close relatives. I've never seen in defined any other way. I get that this is just an accepted term but I also understand where kitty is coming from, it's a really odd way to describe it.

I also understand why it's confusing and I don't think there's anything wrong with asking for clarification. The article isn't the best and unfortunately there just isn't a lot of information out there on this form of abuse. Even my husband does not think he was abused - he just thinks his mom is "weird" and doesn't want much to do with her now that he's out of her house.

I think it's called incest because these cases often DO have sexual undertones. I'm not sure if it would be considered emotional incest if there weren't that aspect of the parent treating the child more like a romantic partner than a son or daughter. You are right that the cases in the article don't really go there, but I will look for some better information for those of you who are confused by the term.

[Courtneyb]

I also understand why it's confusing and I don't think there's anything wrong with asking for clarification. The article isn't the best and unfortunately there just isn't a lot of information out there on this form of abuse. Even my husband does not think he was abused - he just thinks his mom is "weird" and doesn't want much to do with her now that he's out of her house.

I think it's called incest because these cases often DO have sexual undertones. I'm not sure if it would be considered emotional incest if there weren't that aspect of the parent treating the child more like a romantic partner than a son or daughter. You are right that the cases in the article don't really go there, but I will look for some better information for those of you who are confused by the term.

Thanks! That definitely cleared it up a bit. My boyfriend's mother is extremely overbearing on him but I would never say anything ever got remotely incestuous, she's just kind of a whackadoo. I wasn't sure if this term was trying to describe that kind of behavior. I definitely see how some fundy families can get like that though, there is definitely a "special" kind of bond between some patriarchs and their daughters...

[Beeks]

I know wikipedia is....wikipedia, but here is their article on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_incest

The line I liked was this one: "Covert incest was defined in the 1980s[1] as an emotionally abusive[5] relationship between a parent (or stepparent) and child that does not involve incest or sexual intercourse, though it involves similar interpersonal dynamics as a relationship between sexual partners;[1][6][7] it has also been described as a parent responding to a child's love with adult sexuality.[8]"

The bolding is mine. Does that make more sense? Instead of a parent/child relationship, you have more of a romantic partner relationship. It doesn't NECESSARILY have to include sexual stuff, so I can see how the examples in the OPs article might be considered emotional incest, but it makes sense if it does include some weird sexual element as well.

[Kitty]

Correct me if I'm wrong but is it called "incest" merely because the problem is taking place between a parent and their child? The term is a little confusing for me too since I have always seen incest defined as sex between close relatives. I've never seen in defined any other way. I get that this is just an accepted term but I also understand where kitty is coming from, it's a really odd way to describe it.

^THANK YOU. I think this is the only way a lot of people understand this, so I'm sure I'm not the only reader of that article who's like, "wtf?"

Which is why the article seems badly written- ALWAYS assume your audience is full of people who have no clue what you're talking about, people! Incest is an odd way to describe it. WHO came up with it, WHY is it used? The article doesn't explain that, so to me it just sounds like a fancy term for helicopter parenting.

[latraviata]

I know wikipedia is....wikipedia, but here is their article on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_incest

The line I liked was this one: "Covert incest was defined in the 1980s[1] as an emotionally abusive[5] relationship between a parent (or stepparent) and child that does not involve incest or sexual intercourse, though it involves similar interpersonal dynamics as a relationship between sexual partners;[1][6][7] it has also been described as a parent responding to a child's love with adult sexuality.[8]"

The bolding is mine. Does that make more sense? Instead of a parent/child relationship, you have more of a romantic partner relationship. It doesn't NECESSARILY have to include sexual stuff, so I can see how the examples in the OPs article might be considered emotional incest, but it makes sense if it does include some weird sexual element as well.

The sexual element is not that specific, but our baviour is 'very often' (I try to be careful) sexually based without being aware of it.

That sounds more Freudian than it actually is.

[Kitty]

I know wikipedia is....wikipedia, but here is their article on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_incest

The line I liked was this one: "Covert incest was defined in the 1980s[1] as an emotionally abusive[5] relationship between a parent (or stepparent) and child that does not involve incest or sexual intercourse, though it involves similar interpersonal dynamics as a relationship between sexual partners;[1][6][7] it has also been described as a parent responding to a child's love with adult sexuality.[8]"

The bolding is mine. Does that make more sense? Instead of a parent/child relationship, you have more of a romantic partner relationship. It doesn't NECESSARILY have to include sexual stuff, so I can see how the examples in the OPs article might be considered emotional incest, but it makes sense if it does include some weird sexual element as well.

Well if that is present then that's certainly a reasonable term. I have no problem with that then. What my problem is, is that the article doesn't accurately explain anything. The signs it lists seriously don't sound particularly incestuous, but fairly normal for romantic relationships. So the first third of the article just sounds like outdated psychobabble.

I highly doubt however that this is super-common, even in fundie circles. then again, when a family that isolated...

[Beeks]

Well if that is present then that's certainly a reasonable term. I have no problem with that then. What my problem is, is that the article doesn't accurately explain anything. The signs it lists seriously don't sound particularly incestuous, but fairly normal for romantic relationships. So the first third of the article just sounds like outdated psychobabble.

I highly doubt however that this is super-common, even in fundie circles. then again, when a family that isolated...

I also don't think it's super common (thankfully). The article could definitely explain better, but it does talk about how the adult children are treated as romantic partners rather than adult sons or daughters, so I see why the term is used. But I think it was less confusing to me simply because I'm familiar with it. Luckily, the vast majority of people are not as familiar and for that reason the article should have taken more time to explain the terms.

[Guest Anonymous]

[VodouDoll]

I highly doubt however that this is super-common, even in fundie circles. then again, when a family that isolated...

I definitely see it with Geoff Botkin and his daughters. They even shave him. It's sick.

[AnnoDomini]

My first long term boyfriend as an adult, from 22-25, was a mama's boy. He was 33 and still lived at home. He'd never had a serious girlfriend before (red flag I should have recognized but was too stupid to do so). quote]

Haha! :D

Hey, I'm 24, still live at home, and never had a boyfriend. Is that a red flag, or just a sign I grew up fundy?

[Rosa]

Just a sign you grew up fundy.

though frankly, for me that would be a red flag - not about you as a person, but about the whole situation. I stopped dating fundies and post-fundies in my early '20s because I could not take the drama or the fear they would revert. I have a lot of post-fundie friends, but being friends doesn't put you in the fallout zone with family/sex/independence issues the way dating does.

Also 33 is different than 24, for sure.

[AnnoDomini]

:D

True, true. 24 isn't great, but could be a lot worse.

[jockosmom]

Thanks for posting the original article. So disturbing. My mother was a very controlling person and it took me until I was around 40 before I could give up caring what she thought about my decisions, choices, etc.

The posts about helicopter parents hits home too. I work in a university and while I personally don't have much student and parent contact, a co-worker in our office does and she sees and hears it all. Some of these poor kids seem like virtual prisoners of their parents even though the parents may live 200 miles or more away. They can't make any decisions without consulting mommy and daddy.

Then, the info about parents acting toward the child as they would toward a spouse? I've been getting concerned a little bit in this direction for a family member with a teenage son. Son is an athlete, a jock, very tall and good-looking; looks just like his dad. I've seen the mom sitting with son on the couch arm in arm or with her leg draped over son's lap, like you would with a boyfriend. Also, mom was giving back and neck massage to son. Made me uncomfortable to have them in my line of sight. I had to get up and move to a different chair so I didn't have to watch their uncomfortable closeness.

[Lainey]

I've been getting concerned a little bit in this direction for a family member with a teenage son. Son is an athlete, a jock, very tall and good-looking; looks just like his dad. I've seen the mom sitting with son on the couch arm in arm or with her leg draped over son's lap, like you would with a boyfriend. Also, mom was giving back and neck massage to son. Made me uncomfortable to have them in my line of sight. I had to get up and move to a different chair so I didn't have to watch their uncomfortable closeness.

:( I'm sorry. I think you're right to be concerned; that's not normal. My mom started all this when my brother was a teenager (15 y.o.). Before that she was just psycho to both of us.

My mom does treat my brother like he's her boyfriend or husband. She texts him all the time, checks her cell phone constantly to see if he's texted her, acts weird around him, they're ALWAYS together unless he's at work, etc. She even follows him up to my city when he's working (he works here in summer), even though it means she has to stay at homeless shelters (no, I try not to let the crazy bitch stay with me if I can help it). They go on vacations together, out to eat together, he drives her everywhere, etc. My brother is so emotionally dependent on her that any attempt to get him away from her is a dismal failure. They terrorize me and my cousins together, keep secrets about what they're doing in their lives, make all their decisions together, etc. He has no romantic prospects, and I think he's given up. He used to talk about suicide as if he thought it was the only way he could escape.

And as I've mentioned before, she's been jealous of any girl that expressed an interest in him, or whom he's expressed an interest in. Any girl who called him would get told not to call anymore. When I was younger, if someone mistook him for her husband or boyfriend, I would correct them, and my mother would shush me. She liked it. Fucking bitch. There's a picture of her staring at him like she wants to jump him from when we were teenagers. I used to have recurring nightmares about this shit. She's managed to separate him from every other member of the family, because they call her on it. She's brainwashed him that they're all "no good."

I don't think he'd commit incest, but I have no doubt that my mother would. She's not in reality--she's in some sort of world where everything she thinks and does is right, and everyone else is wrong. I worry that there's something sexual going on--like I said, I don't think he'd want to do it, but I worry that she made him at some point and now uses that against him as a "do what I say or I'll tell" sort of thing.

Wow, I have way too many issues with this subject to participate in this topic. I'm going away now.

[roddma]

I went through the same thing with mine until marriage. While they aren't like the Duggars in any aspect, they tried to control me more than my brother. My brother and I was expected to attend church even as young adults. I had no driving license until 27 single until 28, and guess who stayed with older people when they needed help? Like no one else could find the time. It took me getting married to make them realize I'm not a little girl. Control and religion are not related but some use it to their advantage. We love our parent sbut most of us could do without the over-control thing.