Erin Bates's Wedding - Part 2

[formergothardite]

It's all about perspective. Compared to Michelle, I can see why people think Kelly is the better mother. Like others said, when she saw Zach suffer because of the courtship rules, she changed them without thinking about what other families might think of them. Can you see Michelle doing something like that for a child?

I don't think they have changed the rules of courtship. They changed the name, sure, but if the daughter that nobody can remember how to spell her name decided she wanted to date someone that was totally mainstream and who was not willing to at least pretend to bend to the ATI rules do you really think they would support it? If Zach had wanted to casually date someone do you think they would have been supportive? I don't. I also think Michelle and Jim Bob would do exactly the same thing Gil and Kelly did if they had a courtship publically fall apart. In fact I can see them latching onto the whole "dating with a purpose" line instead of courtship to make themselves seem less out there and to "prove" that their kids are really choosing this lifestyle.

[nokidsmom]

I don't think they have changed their views, just the wording to make it present better to the outside world. I doubt they are able to easily control a house full of teens/young adults, so the easiest thing to do is make it sound so easy and liberal and fun! that they are marrying them off so quickly. Reality is, they are probably losing control of them and needed a way to make sure they were still kept safely in Gothards arms. "Dating with a purpose" sounds so much better than courting, and probably tends to not scare as many potential spouses away.

They still beat their kids and take money from their adult son. They think everybody not like them are going to hell. They still keep their circle small and inclusive. They still raise their kids in abject ignorance (sorry, innocence) to make sure they love the Jesus and Gothard above all else. They still raise their girls to think that they aren't worth any more than the worth of their uterus and housekeeping skills. They keep them all so uneducated that they're destined to live a life on the edge of poverty, unless the reality shows stick around.

Not really sure why everybody likes them so much, or claims that they're better than the Duggars. They're just the same.

To the bolded: this is exactly what I think. The two weddings occurred pretty quickly and it looks like another is in the works very soon. IIRC, it was stated that Chad and Erin might marry after she finished college but it happened much sooner. There wasn't much about Zach and Whit and all of all sudden they were engaged then married right after. Perhaps Gil and Kelly had some real concerns about their older kids falling into sin, so better to get them married off before that happens. Chad is from another ATI family so no worries about him and Erin falling away from Gothard. Getting Alyssa married into a conservative political family will can ensure she stays the path but also has the advantage of political connections. Now with Zach and Whit, I don't know. She's not ATI and fundie-lite at most. Her wearing skirts during the engagement may not mean much other than to please the prospective in-laws until the wedding. I suspect that there was a lot more emotional fallout from the failed courtship when we know and perhaps they didn't want to risk messing with their son's happiness when it came down to it. It's very possible that Zach blamed them for the failed courtship due to them by insisting he go by the courtship model and it obviously didn't work.

ETA: I suspect Zach bent the rules by going to Sonic a lot. He didn't "date" but got to see Whit outside of the whole courtship / "dating with a purpose" thing and being supervised by his parents. His parents probably found out and voila! courtship then engagement but they probably tried their darndest to kill it off first before being assured that Whit would fall in line. But I still don't get the vibe that Gil and Kelly are as thrilled with their new daughter in law. The failed courtship may have smartened Zach up.

[RosyDaisy]

I don't think the Bateses are trying to hide anything. I'm sure the Bateses don't feel like they have anything to hide... they truly believe that homosexuality is a horrible sin and that everyone should know it. People like them better than the Duggars for whatever reason, so they assume that they must have 'better' beliefs, but it's all projection.

This. The Bateses are every bit as awful as the Duggars. Why anybody would think they have better beliefs is beyond me. They don't hide a damn thing.

[Ms Jess]

I don't think they have changed the rules of courtship. They changed the name, sure, but if the daughter that nobody can remember how to spell her name decided she wanted to date someone that was totally mainstream and who was not willing to at least pretend to bend to the ATI rules do you really think they would support it? If Zach had wanted to casually date someone do you think they would have been supportive? I don't. I also think Michelle and Jim Bob would do exactly the same thing Gil and Kelly did if they had a courtship publically fall apart. In fact I can see them latching onto the whole "dating with a purpose" line instead of courtship to make themselves seem less out there and to "prove" that their kids are really choosing this lifestyle.

Exactly. A rose by any other name and all that.

[lilith]

To the bolded: this is exactly what I think. The two weddings occurred pretty quickly and it looks like another is in the works very soon. IIRC, it was stated that Chad and Erin might marry after she finished college but it happened much sooner. There wasn't much about Zach and Whit and all of all sudden they were engaged then married right after. Perhaps Gil and Kelly had some real concerns about their older kids falling into sin, so better to get them married off before that happens. Chad is from another ATI family so no worries about him and Erin falling away from Gothard. Getting Alyssa married into a conservative political family will can ensure she stays the path but also has the advantage of political connections. Now with Zach and Whit, I don't know. She's not ATI and fundie-lite at most. Her wearing skirts during the engagement may not mean much other than to please the prospective in-laws until the wedding. I suspect that there was a lot more emotional fallout from the failed courtship when we know and perhaps they didn't want to risk messing with their son's happiness when it came down to it. It's very possible that Zach blamed them for the failed courtship due to them by insisting he go by the courtship model and it obviously didn't work.

ETA: I suspect Zach bent the rules by going to Sonic a lot. He didn't "date" but got to see Whit outside of the whole courtship / "dating with a purpose" thing and being supervised by his parents. His parents probably found out and voila! courtship then engagement but they probably tried their darndest to kill it off first before being assured that Whit would fall in line. But I still don't get the vibe that Gil and Kelly are as thrilled with their new daughter in law. The failed courtship may have smartened Zach up.

I agree, they aren't gushing over it like they are Princess Erin's ATI Royal Wedding, and I don't think it's cause Zach and Whitney are more low key - they posted heaps from their honeymoon, but have hardly been mentioned on the main Bates page.

I would lay good odds that Whitney has no intention of leaving her fertility in God's hands, and that if Zach hasn't fallen into line with that yet he will by baby 3.

[singsingsing]

They did change their rules. It may not seem like it in a mainstream context, but in their context it was actually a pretty significant shift: they went from the more rigid and methodical courtship approach to a system which requires getting to know the other person as a friend first, and then (relatively) freely expressing emotion and affection before engagement.

[Arete]

I suspect that a least a part of what makes people think of the Bates as better than the Duggars is that the older Bates girls are more physically attractive than the Duggar women. These kinds of biases tend to operate more on a subconscious level. After all, Princess Erin is qualitatively a clone of Anna Duggar, but the comments about Anna's wedding and attitudes have always been far harsher. No one goes out of the way to find any redeeming qualities in the oldest biological Jeub girl, who is one of the few we follow with the guts to try and get an education in the mainstream world instead of endlessly prattling about Prince Charming ala the Botkinettes.

The Bates understand the market advantage attractive offspring can represent, and they use the advantage to the fullest when working their audience.

[Ralar]

I get the feeling that Kelly might be able to find it within herself to 'forgive' a gay child if it turned out to be a reality in her life. You see this syndrome with people a lot: it's horrible and wrong until it happens to them, and then suddenly it's a lot more complicated. So abortion is murder until they need an abortion, or being gay is evil until one of their children is gay, or gay people should never have children, until their gay child has a child and then they can't imagine life without that grandchild...

Think: Dick Cheney

[Ms Jess]

I suspect that a least a part of what makes people think of the Bates as better than the Duggars is that the older Bates girls are more physically attractive than the Duggar women. These kinds of biases tend to operate more on a subconscious level. After all, Princess Erin is qualitatively a clone of Anna Duggar, but the comments about Anna's wedding and attitudes have always been far harsher. No one goes out of the way to find any redeeming qualities in the oldest biological Jeub girl, who is one of the few we follow with the guts to try and get an education in the mainstream world instead of endlessly prattling about Prince Charming ala the Botkinettes.

The Bates understand the market advantage attractive offspring can represent, and they use the advantage to the fullest when working their audience.

I agree with this assessment. I think people tend to want and/or expect better things from more attractive people. The Bateses are prettier and that makes us -- the general us -- relate to them more. We want to think they're more liberal/inclusive/understanding/less literal than the Duggars and so we read more into the things they do and say.

[singsingsing]

I suspect that a least a part of what makes people think of the Bates as better than the Duggars is that the older Bates girls are more physically attractive than the Duggar women. These kinds of biases tend to operate more on a subconscious level. After all, Princess Erin is qualitatively a clone of Anna Duggar, but the comments about Anna's wedding and attitudes have always been far harsher. No one goes out of the way to find any redeeming qualities in the oldest biological Jeub girl, who is one of the few we follow with the guts to try and get an education in the mainstream world instead of endlessly prattling about Prince Charming ala the Botkinettes.

The Bates understand the market advantage attractive offspring can represent, and they use the advantage to the fullest when working their audience.

Really? I don't find them more attractive than the Duggars at all. I'm curious, is this a general consensus? They're all attractive young women, but if anything I would've said the Duggar girls were better looking.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I think the women in both families are all good looking. The Bates men are more attractive than the Duggar men though.

[lilith]

Jana and Jessa are beautiful, as are Erin and Alyssa. All the others are, in my opinion, pretty average looking young women who put a lot of effort into their appearance but aren't natural beauties. The middle two Bates girls, Josie and (I think) Katie, or maybe Carlin, are very pretty too.

[EmiGirl]

I think the women in both families are all good looking. The Bates men are more attractive than the Duggar men though.

Well look at the parents. Michelle was attractive before the mullet and would be again if she'd do something with that awful hair of hers. Kelly is a nice looking woman. Gil is a nice looking man, but Jim Boob.... no - not even when he was younger.

[lilith]

Well look at the parents. Michelle was attractive before the mullet and would be again if she'd do something with that awful hair of hers. Kelly is a nice looking woman. Gil is a nice looking man, but Jim Boob.... no - not even when he was younger.

See I don't think Kelly was very attractive when she was younger, but she's blossomed with age, whilst Michelle has withered.

I agree that Gil is conventionally attractive, and that most of the Bates boys are too. Not Zach though.

Many of the Duggar boys have a bit of a dopey look to them, but Josiah was a gorgeous kid and will probably look good when he grows out of the awkwardness of adolescence. The blonder twin and Jackson are also pretty good looking.

[RosyDaisy]

I get the feeling that Kelly might be able to find it within herself to 'forgive' a gay child if it turned out to be a reality in her life. You see this syndrome with people a lot: it's horrible and wrong until it happens to them, and then suddenly it's a lot more complicated. So abortion is murder until they need an abortion, or being gay is evil until one of their children is gay, or gay people should never have children, until their gay child has a child and then they can't imagine life without that grandchild...

I don't. They aren't your typical conservative Christian family. They are hardcore followers of Gothard.

[lilith]

I don't. They aren't your typical conservative Christian family. They are hardcore followers of Gothard.

Agreed. They'd be under massive social pressure to shun the child, and also ashamed that their child rearing had borne "bad fruit".

For all the lip service to the fact that we are all sinners saved by grace, that deeds don't determine salvation and that all sin is abhorrent in god's eyes, most fundies see homosexuality and abortion as unforgivable "super sins". I suspect that Zsuzsanna's assertion that homosexuals CAN'T be saved, cause if they had god's grace they wouldn't want to sin so horribly, is more mainstream among fundies than we think.

[formergothardite]

Agreed. They'd be under massive social pressure to shun the child, and also ashamed that their child rearing had borne "bad fruit".

For all the lip service to the fact that we are all sinners saved by grace, that deeds don't determine salvation and that all sin is abhorrent in god's eyes, most fundies see homosexuality and abortion as unforgivable "super sins". I suspect that Zsuzsanna's assertion that homosexuals CAN'T be saved, cause if they had god's grace they wouldn't want to sin so horribly, is more mainstream among fundies than we think.

Even Miss Raquel believes that way and she is way on the fundie-lite side.

[lilith]

Even Miss Raquel believes that way and she is way on the fundie-lite side.

Which is a pity, cause Raquel would actually love a stereotypical "gay best friend" to tell how how pretty she is and pay her lots of attention and check out boys with, all without further compromising what is left of her "purity"

[Dandruff]

Anyone else wondering whether Erin & Chad and Whit & Zach are spending time together outside of larger family functions? I never had a sense one way or the other about Erin's closeness to Zach. Maybe the better question is how Erin and Whit get along.

[nelliebelle1197]

I suspect that a least a part of what makes people think of the Bates as better than the Duggars is that the older Bates girls are more physically attractive than the Duggar women. These kinds of biases tend to operate more on a subconscious level. After all, Princess Erin is qualitatively a clone of Anna Duggar, but the comments about Anna's wedding and attitudes have always been far harsher. No one goes out of the way to find any redeeming qualities in the oldest biological Jeub girl, who is one of the few we follow with the guts to try and get an education in the mainstream world instead of endlessly prattling about Prince Charming ala the Botkinettes.

The Bates understand the market advantage attractive offspring can represent, and they use the advantage to the fullest when working their audience.

I was about to post this exact thought about the physical! The entire family is overall more attractive in many ways than the Duggars and they have just enough a sheen of "normal". The Duggars are just too chaotic and low-brow in a way, while the Bates seem serene and well mannered. Could you imagine a Bates girl with the Jinger tan?

[rural juror]

I don't think the Bates boys are better looking than the Duggar boys. Lawson is the only good-looking one, IMO. I agree that the girls from the two families are about equal looks-wise.

[Daenerys]

Even Miss Raquel believes that way and she is way on the fundie-lite side.

As a Christian I've met plenty of people who are far from fundie and they believe along those lines, too.

[Mrs Ms]

Add me to the list of people who doesn't think that the Bates look better than the Duggars. I find them split pretty even (though I don't get why most posters find Jessa beautiful - I find her the least good looking sister of all!)

While I don't give the Bates a pass per se, I do consider them to be much better parents. Both families function in the stifling confines of ati, but the Bates parents just seem so much more like parents.

Unlike the hornbags officially in charge of the Duggar household, they parent their children with the help of the older sisters (versus the sister-mums parenting with help from JB&M), can come to some compromises within ati guidelines and seem to be able to see their children as individuals (hello, names can start with different letters and your children will STILL be siblings!)

Even "small" things like Gil and Kelly holding and carrying their children so much more than JB&M (from what I've seen in videos and pics) just gives the overall impression that they at least like children and aren't having them purely because Jeebus.

ETA: Calling them better parents isn't a complement as the Duggars set the bar very low.

[nellautumngirl]

Yeah, exactly. I know what they believe and what they're capable of, but I can't help but like them more than the Duggars. They actually seem to enjoy each others company, while with the Duggars, apart from a few friendships (Hannie and Jackson, Jed and Jer, Jinger and Jessa) there seems to be no love lost between them. I attribute that to Jim Bob and Michelle's lack of love and care towards them. The Bates parents seem much more involved in their children's lives.

[formergothardite]

I think they only reason that they seem like they are more involved is because we have seen less of them. Didn't the sister-mom of one of the Bates babies be the only one who got to know if it was a boy or a girl before it was born? And then traveled with Gil and Kelly to care for the baby after it was born when they went on a trip? And she was a fairly young teen, but the newborn was her responsibility? I do think Kelly likes children while Michelle only likes babies, but both of them are fairly shitty mothers who are nothing but child hoarders. I also think that without all the money Michelle and Jim Bob would be marrying their kids off super fast like Gil and Kelly are.