Duggars, Duggars Everywhere - General Discussion Part 2

[Nerthe]

Why do you think Fundies listen to Gothard about marriage and raising babies? He's never been married, and has no kids. This is the most ridiculous thing ever. Wake up, Fundies! Gothard is BS!

Well, it works in catholic church, too. Maybe not to that extent, but priests are not married and have no kids, either and still do marriage counseling and perform wedding ceremonies in which they talk about how married life is and how the couple has to behave.

[nellautumngirl]

I have several friends who "don't watch tv". Some of them own tvs but just don't use them much. Some use their computers to watch dvds so they have control of their kids viewing. The point is, none of then are making a big deal out of it or saying it makes them special. My BiL DOESNT WATCH TV!!!eleventy!!! That makes him a fantastic person and it makes his kids smarter than mine. Oh yeah, did I mention the boys spend several hours a day playing Mariokart? (Yes, hours - that is not an exaggeration unfortunately.) The teenage girls spend a lot of time playing online games too. The time spent on computers for fun makes a joke out if his claim they don't watch tv. Duggars are the same. I am sure the kids hardly ever watch tv. An occasional show at your aunty's house or Animal Planet while in a motel is not really a big deal. However, if you claim that not watching tv makes you special, you really do have to expect a lot of snark when you don't live up to that standard.

I especially remember Michelle placing Jennifer and Jordyn in front of some Iphone/monitor to entertain themselves when they were just babies. Not to say that's evil or anything, but for someone as smug as Michelle..

[Wenny]

I especially remember Michelle placing Jennifer and Jordyn in front of some Iphone/monitor to entertain themselves when they were just babies. Not to say that's evil or anything, but for someone as smug as Michelle..

But that was for "school."

[gustava]

But that was for "school."

SOTDRF=Skool of the dining room floor

[realist51]

I think that Jill keeps super sweet to please the parents and then does what she wants to.

I think Jill probably is a sweet person naturally. That's probably the personality she was born with and probably, in part, because she has found a way to do what she wants--sort of. I seem to recall her expressing interest in medical school way back when. I'd guess that this apprenticeship is the closest thing to medicine that her parents would approve. I wouldn't be surprised if, once she got a practice under way, she used her income to continue her education. Frankly, Jill is my favorite of the Duggars BECAUSE she seems to be able to find her way and pursue her interests. She also does seem to be a hard worker. She did a LOT of the child care at home before getting involved with the midwifery training. Someone commented here about her experience working in a Christian school. She said that the kids who seemed to have imbibed the most kool-aid and who won the most Bible Bees were the first ones out of the lifestyle when they became adults. My guess is that Jill will fall into that category.

[Dandruff]

I don't think Jill will leave the lifestyle, though if she does I'll be completely impressed. She has consistently seemed to be 'with the program' and her steps toward midwifery now would be of direct use to her as a missionary later (which she has shown interest in). I can easily imagine her happily married and working with mothers, babies, and orphans in Central America.

[Ellimenopy]

I think Jill probably is a sweet person naturally. That's probably the personality she was born with and probably, in part, because she has found a way to do what she wants--sort of. I seem to recall her expressing interest in medical school way back when. I'd guess that this apprenticeship is the closest thing to medicine that her parents would approve. I wouldn't be surprised if, once she got a practice under way, she used her income to continue her education. Frankly, Jill is my favorite of the Duggars BECAUSE she seems to be able to find her way and pursue her interests. She also does seem to be a hard worker. She did a LOT of the child care at home before getting involved with the midwifery training. Someone commented here about her experience working in a Christian school. She said that the kids who seemed to have imbibed the most kool-aid and who won the most Bible Bees were the first ones out of the lifestyle when they became adults. My guess is that Jill will fall into that category.

I think Jill will only continue to toe the line as long as she gets married soon. Being the most religiously dedicated does not mean that she is sincerely the truest believer. In my experience, those who are doubting their religion throw themselves even harder into it right before it all falls apart. As Gothardism preaches that the only proper position for a woman is as a full-time wife and mother, Jill will expect that her devotion will bring her that. She will never be allowed to be a missionary on her own, no matter how qualified she is. If she can't pursue her dreams within her religion, I can see her quickly having a crisis of faith. I don't see her becoming an old spinster SAHD. She'll break before then. I can see that happening to Jana, but not Jill.

[paganhomeschooler]

Well, it works in catholic church, too. Maybe not to that extent, but priests are not married and have no kids, either and still do marriage counseling and perform wedding ceremonies in which they talk about how married life is and how the couple has to behave.

Just FTR, some priests can have experience with marriage and can have children! If you are widowed, you are allowed to become an ordained priest. One of the best priests we had at the Catholic school I went to growing up had been widowed and had several adult children as well as some grandchildren. He was one of the more relatable priests, especially for us kids. Much better than the weirdo, probable pedophile that took over around my 7th grade year and is still there. He still gives me the heebie jeebies! I used to see him out around town before we moved.

[nellautumngirl]

But that was for "school."

I'm sure one-year-old Jordyn learned a lot in that "lesson".

[Lillybee]

I'm sure one-year-old Jordyn learned a lot in that "lesson".

I remember Mullet having an "educational video" on her laptop for Josie, when Josie couldn't even sit up by herself.

[Mama Mia]

I remember Mullet having an "educational video" on her laptop for Josie, when Josie couldn't even sit up by herself.

I'm continuously shocked by how tech savvy even babies are now. My little granddaughter would grab a smart phone and scroll through the pictures at around 7 months. They have tons of games for toddlers on tablets and they seem to be able to figure out how to zoom, tap, switch screens etc. It seems really strange, but little kids have always mimicked adults, whether that's pretending to cook or work a smart phone.

I think there are generally two types of parents who don't allow television, those who think it will rot their brain/screen time is bad and those who object because there is so much content they find objectionable. I think the Duggars are the second type.

[patsymae]

Just FTR, some priests can have experience with marriage and can have children! If you are widowed, you are allowed to become an ordained priest. One of the best priests we had at the Catholic school I went to growing up had been widowed and had several adult children as well as some grandchildren. He was one of the more relatable priests, especially for us kids. Much better than the weirdo, probable pedophile that took over around my 7th grade year and is still there. He still gives me the heebie jeebies! I used to see him out around town before we moved.

Also, Eastern rite Catholic priests are allowed to be married, and married clergy from other religions who become Catholic are allowed to become Catholic priests (there was a big influx when the Episcopal church allowed women to be ordained). That's what makes the whole "gift of celibacy" thing that much weirder.

[FloraDoraDolly]

I think Jill will only continue to toe the line as long as she gets married soon. Being the most religiously dedicated does not mean that she is sincerely the truest believer. In my experience, those who are doubting their religion throw themselves even harder into it right before it all falls apart. As Gothardism preaches that the only proper position for a woman is as a full-time wife and mother, Jill will expect that her devotion will bring her that. She will never be allowed to be a missionary on her own, no matter how qualified she is. If she can't pursue her dreams within her religion, I can see her quickly having a crisis of faith. I don't see her becoming an old spinster SAHD. She'll break before then. I can see that happening to Jana, but not Jill.

I think Jill is a sweet, hardworking, caring person who genuinely and sincerely believes in following the teachings of Christ. As long as she sticks with Jesus and ignores Gothard as much as possible, she will be all right. I think it's a sign of Jill's strength that she is working as a midwife and not staying at home all day letting her mother's youngest children grow more and more emotionally dependent on her. I'm sure Jill will be there for those little ones when they truly need her, but she has managed to separate herself and her life from them.

[Trynn]

When I was at my fundiest, that was the year before it all fell apart. I wasn't doing it to mask doubts, though. The doubts didn't come until I discovered that stuff had been hidden from me, not just by my parents, but by my religious teachers, pastors, youth leaders, etc.

It was then, when I realized what they truly believed, that I began do have doubts. Actually, if they hadn't tried to hide it from me, I'm not sure if I'd have ever had doubts about it...

I doubt Jill has had any information about what her parents believe hidden from her, though, so maybe you're right.

What I meant to say was, it might not be doubt, but it is still often at the point where a person is the most religious that it all falls apart. Back then I used to think it happened because being so hard core fundy wasn't something a person could sustain for very long before burn-out occurred. That's what I thought had happened;I burned out.

[Lillybee]

I wonder if the Duggars will be calling Gil Bates soon. Northern Arkansas just had another nasty ice storm.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I think that Jill is a really kind and caring person who just wants to make everyone happy. Maybe that will be what breaks her free from fundieland-I cant see her ever wanting to hurt her own baby, she just wouldn't be able to do it, and maybe if she one day realises the harm that fundie teachings have caused other people (kids who have been beaten, groups discriminated against and offended, women who have been abused) she wouldn't be able to go on doing it. Especially if its babies. She would never harm a child. I can see some of the other oldest Duggars getting frustrated with dealing with their buddy and spanking them, but not Jill.

I think she wants to help people, and likes helping people, and sticks with being a fundie because she thinks that they are doing good and making the world a better place.

[RosyDaisy]

Jill seems to really care about her patients and their babies. The longer she works, the more she will love it. So much so that she will not want to give it up. I really hope she escapes and gets a real nursing degree.

[Cleopatra7]

I'm torn about Jill. On the one hand, I think Jill really wants to help people and takes a genuine joy in midwifing. On the other hand, I think she's the only Duggar kid who is really convinced that Gothardism is objectively the best way to live. I suspect that she is a snitch on some level, not because she's trying to brown nose or be mean, but because she worries about the state of her siblings' souls. True believers can do bad or unethical things in the name of faith. I hope that the midwifing can open Jill's eyes to the wider world.

[Luisainlondon1]

It's a good thing that Jill has to be close to her patients. She'll meet a lot of people with different points of view. Sooner or later it makes you reflect your own positions. We can just hope….

[realist51]

Whether Jill adheres to Gothardism or not, consider the differences in how she lives her life and how her sisters do. While they are playing the violin badly, handing out "tracts," campaigning for loser candidates, and "waiting for Prince Charming," Jill is learning skills, interacting with the world, providing a service that people actually need, and putting herself in a position where she can be self-sufficient if she has to be.

[PennySycamore]

It's a good thing that Jill has to be close to her patients. She'll meet a lot of people with different points of view. Sooner or later it makes you reflect your own positions. We can just hope….

I hope she'll continue to meet different types of people when she'd finished her training and is qualified. She may be stuck with being a midwife for the ATI crowd or at least other fun dies.

(Blame the misspelling of fun die on autocorrect. Not going to fix it either. Fun die says a lot.)

[roddma]

I am having a slight disagreement on the Life is Not All Pickles and Hairspray FB page. They think she may be somewhat behind but showing no major issues. They also deny speech issues of Jordyn and Jennifer. Josie may have improved but still light years behind IMO.

[SRC]

I teach early childhood age students and have for 15+ years with a degree in special education and elementary education. To me, Josie appears to be developing normally. She has some speech errors. Since I'm not a speech pathologist, I can't say for certain that her articulation is age appropriate, but I will say that not all sounds are required to be correctly articulated in order to be considered age-appropriate. Also, children develop at different rates. With our educational system set up the way it is, we're used to kids having to be at a certain level for a particular age/grade, but that doesn't account for differing developmental rates for young children. Without being assessed in cognition, motor skills, and speech/language, no one can really say for sure whether Josie is developing normally.

[Mama Mia]

I teach early childhood age students and have for 15+ years with a degree in special education and elementary education. To me, Josie appears to be developing normally. She has some speech errors. Since I'm not a speech pathologist, I can't say for certain that her articulation is age appropriate, but I will say that not all sounds are required to be correctly articulated in order to be considered age-appropriate. Also, children develop at different rates. With our educational system set up the way it is, we're used to kids having to be at a certain level for a particular age/grade, but that doesn't account for differing developmental rates for young children. Without being assessed in cognition, motor skills, and speech/language, no one can really say for sure whether Josie is developing normally.

I completely agree. And remember we see very small snippets of these kids daily lives. The talking heads show little kids who are often silly, or distracted or not in the mood to talk. There is nothing abnormal about that.

[nellautumngirl]

But Josie doesn't seem to understand a lot of things around her.. Jordyn or a buddy always has to cue her in the talking heads for example, at least that's what it looks like to me. She can blow kisses and say "dog" and "kitty" and "pepper", sure, but what about whole sentences? I'm no expert in child development, but to me, it looks like speech therapy or whatever else helps her improve would be a good idea. And yes, I know we don't know if she already gets that, but I don't believe it. To Boob and Michelle, she's perfect.