Pope Francis: Church can't 'interfere' with gays

[doggie]

The Catholic church isn't going to transform overnight. I'm no Catholic but I hope these small improvements keep happening.

very true I mean look at the outrage he has caused even with his small changes. it will take a long time. if he tried to change things instantly someone would just off him.

[Minerva]

The reactions I've seen have mostly included annoyance at the media for "twisting his words to make it to seem like the church doesn't care about abortion, gay marriage and contraception anymore" :roll:

:lol: Well, that's one way to avoid thinking about the fact that one's Pope is displeased with one's actions. I think people are reading into his words a bit too optimistically, but I don't think his words are being twisted. Maybe conservative Catholics aren't commenting on the actual content of the Pope's words because you can't really disagree with the guy who speaks for God.

[FakePigtails]

:lol: Well, that's one way to avoid thinking about the fact that one's Pope is displeased with one's actions. I think people are reading into his words a bit too optimistically, but I don't think his words are being twisted. Maybe conservative Catholics aren't commenting on the actual content of the Pope's words because you can't really disagree with the guy who speaks for God.

Pretty much. And omg, I just went to check out the CAF discussion on this and it's 65 pages :pink-shock: (in case anyone has a LOT of time to kill: forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=824156)

[anjulibai]

I think reform of an institution as old as the Church will take a very, very long time. The guy has only been pope for 6 months. Given the circumstances, I do think his words are very positive step. I don't think he'll make as much change as the most liberal of Catholics or, well, just liberals, would wish, but he's moving in a decent direction.

The Church once supported a geocentric model of the universe and creationism - it doesn't anymore. It once only allowed priests to read the Bible, and required Mass to be in Latin, a language it's adherents could not speak. It used to do a lot of things that were pretty fucking shitty. But, very slowly, it has changed for the better.

I really hope this change will continue for the better, and I can see Francis leading the way.

[RosyDaisy]

Pope Francis keeps contradicting himself to the point that at times he makes no sense.

[Hane]

[OT random funny thing] In Frant McCourt's book Angela's Ashes, a priest referred to masturbation as "interfering with yourself."

[Arete]

[OT random funny thing] In Frant McCourt's book Angela's Ashes, a priest referred to masturbation as "interfering with yourself."

Oh my goodness, thank you for reminding me of the utter awesomeness of that memoir. I need to reread it. :lol: :dance:

[AtroposHeart]

Honestly, I wish the church would enter the twenty-first century. I have probably read more of the Bible than most priests and the Bible says nothing about Birth control or abortion. I still remember Susan B Anthony's words about men using God as a puppet for their own beliefs.

[Hane]

Honestly, I wish the church would enter the twenty-first century. I have probably read more of the Bible than most priests and the Bible says nothing about Birth control or abortion. I still remember Susan B Anthony's words about men using God as a puppet for their own beliefs.

Something I learned from a priest while I was on a Catholic retreat some years ago: The Bible is not the only foundation for Catholic beliefs and traditions--some of them spring from anecdotes and stories that have come down through the generations. I mentioned to him that I had recently read all four Gospels and that a Catholic traditional teaching around Jesus's birth (I forget exactly what) wasn't in any of them, and he explained the bit about Catholic oral tradition.

In all three Abrahamic faith traditions, people will zero in on some crumb of verse that fits their own agenda, and feverishly contort it to suit them. In my experience, EVERY Christian (including me!) is a "cafeteria Christian," and the Bible is a vast buffet of good and bad offerings.

[darareaksmey]

All of the conservative Catholics on my facebook have remained dead silent about this. I expect, if asked, they'd say there's nothing to talk about because he hasn't changed his position on anything (and they'd be right). But the reality is that the Catholic church is very much obsessed with abortion, as are most of the conservative Catholics I've ever met, and the Pope called them out for it. I hope there genuinely will be a shift away from anti-abortion activity in the church. That shit's annoying.

I have one conservative Catholic FB friend whose response, amazingly, was to "like" the Pope's FB page.

[Peas n carrots]

I enjoy the fact it is making a lot of conservative Catholics squirm, but that ol' band of flaming queens isn't going to suddenly shift left. The Vatican is a massive bureaucracy, and it will take a long time for it to change.

I went to a Jesuit university, and what the Pope is saying is pretty much in line with his Jesuit background. Jesuits (at least in my exposure) tend to be big on social issues such as poverty and kind of kum-bai-ya-ish about humanity being one big family. I can't ever recall any mention of the "culture of life" or anti-gay propaganda I was exposed to growing up. My general impression was that many Jesuits tended to have much more liberal beliefs than the rest of the church and that is why they kept kind of mum on those subject. But I can't speak for them...that was just my impression.

[fundiefun]

I've seen more than a fair share of blog posts with conservatives heads about to explode freaking out and some who want him downright excommunicated and fear the liberal agenda will take down the church.

[OkToBeTakei]

I've seen more than a fair share of blog posts with conservatives heads about to explode freaking out and some who want him downright excommunicated and fear the liberal agenda will take down the church.

Excellent :lol:

[Minerva]

I've seen more than a fair share of blog posts with conservatives heads about to explode freaking out and some who want him downright excommunicated and fear the liberal agenda will take down the church.

Now that's more entertaining. Can you recommend any good freakouts?

[2xx1xy1JD]

These are baby steps, and there is admittedly a LONG way to go.

So yes, if you look at where things are at with the Catholic Church today, you still find that birth control is banned and women can be denied life-saving abortions, which is pretty freaking horrible.

OTOH, the Pope sets the general direction of the Catholic Church, and that direction is the opposite of the way that Benedict had been heading. So, those who want to constantly harp on abortion and gay marriage and birth control are being given a cold shoulder, and those who want to focus on social justice are being given a warm welcome. It's likely to result in a change in attitudes on the ground, and a change in which priests and bishops have the most influence. It's not a change in the dogma - yet - but it could be setting the stage for an eventual change in some areas.

[louisa05]

These are baby steps, and there is admittedly a LONG way to go.

So yes, if you look at where things are at with the Catholic Church today, you still find that birth control is banned and women can be denied life-saving abortions, which is pretty freaking horrible.

OTOH, the Pope sets the general direction of the Catholic Church, and that direction is the opposite of the way that Benedict had been heading. So, those who want to constantly harp on abortion and gay marriage and birth control are being given a cold shoulder, and those who want to focus on social justice are being given a warm welcome. It's likely to result in a change in attitudes on the ground, and a change in which priests and bishops have the most influence. It's not a change in the dogma - yet - but it could be setting the stage for an eventual change in some areas.

This.

The pope sets the tone. I posted in a different thread about this. The associate priest in my parish has dropped the legalistic authoritarian tone in his homilies in the past six months and the senior pastor has been emboldened to talk about social justice issues much more often from the pulpit.

And my conservative friends were uncomfortable at first and now they've gone quiet. This is a problem for them. I really believe that it is simply too easy for some people to devote their time, energy and disapproval to issues like abortion, contraception and homosexuality. My most conservative Catholic friends are a pair of 40+ virgins with no dating lives. It is so easy for them to preach against contraception and abortion and feel morally superior about it. Those are issues that have nothing to do with their lives. And they think they don't know anyone who is gay. (They do...some of our high school classmates are--but they've managed to deny that or completely shield themselves from really knowing that).

But the things the pope is talking about...mercy, compassion, helping the poor, addressing the needs of immigrants...those are a lot harder. Posting smug memes on Facebook won't solve them or make them look like they are doing it right. And they do encounter people who are marginalized, poor, and hurting in their daily lives. Neither of the pair is very good at responding to that, either. Plus, they might be forced to realize that their GOP reps and senators are not really following the Church if they have to consider any issue beyond the three obsessions of the Benedict era.

[homeschoolmomma1]

I heard from a fundie Catholic (yes they exist) that a pope or a early church father (sorry I really don't know) said that at the end of time the Catholic Church would be small and only the truly faithful to the rules etc would be in it. So I guess My family and I are out. What ever happened to a loving God?

In all Honestly, POpe Francis is right on many accounts. I believe in a God that is going to ask when you die, " I know you were _____ religion, but what did you do to the least of my people? How did you make the world a better place?. Even without religion I believe we all will get the chance, why not?

[louisa05]

I heard from a fundie Catholic (yes they exist) that a pope or a early church father (sorry I really don't know) said that at the end of time the Catholic Church would be small and only the truly faithful to the rules etc would be in it. So I guess My family and I are out. What ever happened to a loving God?

In all Honestly, POpe Francis is right on many accounts. I believe in a God that is going to ask when you die, " I know you were _____ religion, but what did you do to the least of my people? How did you make the world a better place?. Even without religion I believe we all will get the chance, why not?

That's funny, because I used to hear that from Fundy fundies.

And the pope kind of responded to that in this interview saying that the church cannot be a "small chapel" of just a certain group.

[OkToBeTakei]

I do wonder if it's cultural or geographic?

It seems the big three seems more important in the US than it seems in my culture. I honestly do not recall a conversation or seeing a church that is so conservative or any kind of 'dafty latin catholic' in years 'Oh we just ignore that bit,' whilst not being in any way acceptable when you look at the catholic church in detail seems to be more acceptable and mainstream here. Is it because legally we are so used to the issues that are still contentious in other parts of the world? Who knows.

It does make me smile that people are calling for abortion for all etc. Or some major change in doctrine from such a totally religious and ancient prejudiced bigoted force in the world per se. Which unfortunately or fortunately has never really made any secret about it.

YET are unwilling to see or acknowledge that legally those without religion are trying to do the same politically in their own countries.

It makes the tiny steps allegedly that Frank is making slightly more palatable when those who malign him can say OH MY religion welcomes gay marriage, abortion, free contraception.

OH yes WHO is saying that? Very few. Religious or political.

[Coconut Flan]

What I see in our county could appear to be two different churches. In any parish near my house, you'll never hear a homily about any of those three issues or likely even hear the words mentioned. No priests are involved in the anti-abortion movement and the tiny group of Catholics who do participate in anti-abortion activities lament frequently that they can't recruit a priest to go to their rallies. It seems like the official position of the bishops' council and the activities in our diocese are two separate organizations.

We do have one parish that is a Latin rite parish. By giving them a church property that otherwise would have been sold, they keep quietly to themselves and don't make ruckus throughout the rest of the diocese trying to get Latin masses in other parishes.

[OkToBeTakei]

What I see in our county could appear to be two different churches. In any parish near my house, you'll never hear a homily about any of those three issues or likely even hear the words mentioned. No priests are involved in the anti-abortion movement and the tiny group of Catholics who do participate in anti-abortion activities lament frequently that they can't recruit a priest to go to their rallies. It seems like the official position of the bishops' council and the activities in our diocese are two separate organizations.

We do have one parish that is a Latin rite parish. By giving them a church property that otherwise would have been sold, they keep quietly to themselves and don't make ruckus throughout the rest of the diocese trying to get Latin masses in other parishes.

Honestly Abigail I am not a huge expert on this but is there a huge difference in the 'divide' we tend to talk about in culture. Others may and probably will correct me. Catholic churches tend to be samey here. Abortion is dead and gone as an issue. It's a personal choice. As is contraception. It does not seem to be a 'thing' you hear about. Nor is homosexuality. EVEN when it was legalised. I am not in any way interested but my parents keep me informed.

Is it a political agenda do you think? It is funny how we have no separation of church/state yet it is never an issue in politics. Yet seems to be the focus in the US?

My child attends catholic school and I find it more inclusive of all religion and sex education .......who knew :lol:

[Arete]

Abortion is very much a live issue in Ireland, as was divorce and contraception not too long ago. So the US is not unique in having a segment of the Catholic church that is vocal on issues of choice and conscience in the Western world. It also depends on what part of the US you are talking about. I've gone to Catholic Masses a few times a year my entire life due to so many of my childhood and adulthood friends being Catholic. I've never heard anything about abortion, gays, or contraception from the pulpit. In fact, a fair number of the homes of my Catholic childhood friends had pictures of John XXIII, another "liberal" pope, prominently displayed in their homes by parents and grandparents. I grew up around social justice Catholicism, and considered it something I wished my church was more active in promoting. My guess is that the more conservative elements in the US church correlate to more conservative areas in the US. Even so, there was a Pew Poll that showed 89% of US Catholics were using and supported birth control, so obviously that conservative bend is not as deep as the Ratzingers of the church hoped.

I think some elements in the church are getting more reactionary by the year, but that is too bad and so sad for them. They will be messy and embarrassing to clean up, but they will never be able to reverse the forward momentum. Nothing is going to convince the majority of Catholic women in the US to throw out their birth control pills, quit their jobs, and start birthing future abortion protesters.

[Coconut Flan]

To me the divide has been between the bishops lead by Benedict and the average Catholic parish. As far as from one country to another, I can't answer that one as I've never lived where you do. I do know that if I weren't on FJ and ignored the Catholic bishops and a couple fundie-lite friends on FB that I would never hear about contraception, would only hear once every few months about abortion, and the only thing I see about homosexuality that is controversial is when prop 8 gets brought up. In other words outside FJ, those aren't issues in my life. They aren't mentioned in church as a rule (of all things the orthodox priest went off on an anti-abortion rant and that was my last Sunday in his parish) and it isn't something that comes up with my friends or much in the news here. I don't attend fundie churches except when being nosey and don't live in a conservative state. It may be cultural state by state in this country or even county by county.

[Arete]

of all things the orthodox priest went off on an anti-abortion rant and that was my last Sunday in his parish

Slightly OT, but do you know if this priest was a Protestant convert?

[Coconut Flan]

Yes, he began life as a Methodist, then became Baptist in late high school through college, and went to Orthodox seminary in his thirties.