Pope Francis: Church can't 'interfere' with gays

[OkToBeTakei]

Abortion is very much a live issue in Ireland, as was divorce and contraception not too long ago. So the US is not unique in having a segment of the Catholic church that is vocal on issues of choice and conscience in the Western world. It also depends on what part of the US you are talking about. I've gone to Catholic Masses a few times a year my entire life due to so many of my childhood and adulthood friends being Catholic. I've never heard anything about abortion, gays, or contraception from the pulpit. In fact, a fair number of the homes of my Catholic childhood friends had pictures of John XXIII, another "liberal" pope, prominently displayed in their homes by parents and grandparents. I grew up around social justice Catholicism, and considered it something I wished my church was more active in promoting. My guess is that the more conservative elements in the US church correlate to more conservative areas in the US. Even so, there was a Pew Poll that showed 89% of US Catholics were using and supported birth control, so obviously that conservative bend is not as deep as the Ratzingers of the church hoped.

I think some elements in the church are getting more reactionary by the year, but that is too bad and so sad for them. They will be messy and embarrassing to clean up, but they will never be able to reverse the forward momentum. Nothing is going to convince the majority of Catholic women in the US to throw out their birth control pills, quit their jobs, and start birthing future abortion protesters.

I did forget Ireland in that they are not part of our political or legal system. I am honestly trying to get a 'feel' for what is going on. I live in 'sin' I do not 'go' I could not give a flying ..proverbial. I just don't 'hear' the issues. I do hear acceptance amongst my Papey pals. That is why they are my pals I suppose.

I left or just nothing so dramatic.....drifted from my religion of birth/doctrination.

We are all to some extent products of our upbringing. Religion though has never been a political tool. For a country that eschews church/state and I know I am a bit boring about this it is just not an issue here. It is weird when I see it.

[Arete]

Yes, he began life as a Methodist, then became Baptist in late high school through college, and went to Orthodox seminary in his thirties.

Yeah, I've noticed that some convert priests sometimes bring the old political-religious battles into the orthodox church with them. They tend to throw regular darts at "cradle orthodox" churches for not being active in the anti abortion movement and having pretty much nothing to say about homosexuality from the Sunday pulpit. I personally think they should not be let loose on parishes until they are made to understand that active political agitation on cultural issues is for the most part a big "no-no" in US orthodox churches.

OKTBT, I suspect that certain parts of US Catholic Church got so fixated on being politically vocal on things like abortion and birth control at least in part to "prove" to non mainline Protestant culture around them that they were as "Christian" as they were and then some. It is different when you have Catholics coexisting with mainline Protestant churches like Lutherans and Episcopalians in Europe. When the mainline churches in a country are not active in these issues, the Catholic church tends to be a lot more circumspect.

[Coconut Flan]

It's sad. That parish is getting more fundified over time. He's also been preaching against Halloween and introduced a harvest festival without recognizing it's pagan roots. The parish now has some child hoarding families and is encouraging them. Long skirts and long-sleeved tops are coming into fashion. It became time to make a tough decision.

[OkToBeTakei]

Yeah, I've noticed that some convert priests sometimes bring the old political-religious battles into the orthodox church with them. They tend to throw regular darts at "cradle orthodox" churches for not being active in the anti abortion movement and having pretty much nothing to say about homosexuality from the Sunday pulpit. I personally think they should not be let loose on parishes until they are made to understand that active political agitation on cultural issues is for the most part a big "no-no" in US orthodox churches.

OKTBT, I suspect that certain parts of US Catholic Church got so fixated on being politically vocal on things like abortion and birth control at least in part to "prove" to non mainline Protestant culture around them that they were as "Christian" as they were and then some. It is different when you have Catholics coexisting with mainline Protestant churches like Lutherans and Episcopalians in Europe. When the mainline churches in a country are not active in these issues, the Catholic church tends to be a lot more circumspect.

Seems like a good way to drive people away. That seems to be the biggest issue here. Saying that appearing liberal always seems strange to me the doctrine is the same. At least what you describe is more honest.

[fundiefun]

I go to church in a more urban setting with a large population of hispanics and those who are low income and I have yet to hear a sermon or being preached at about the evils of abortion, right to life,etc. The only things our priest seems to touch on are getting involved in the church where help is needed, helping those in the community, and helping those like Jesus did. This priest is very laid back and instead of standing at the podium he will get down and walk up and down the aisles talking with us not at us.

[Minerva]

My experience with Catholic churches and schools in Ontario is that they generally leave birth control and LGBTQ folks alone, but love complaining about abortion. Sure, there's been the occasional school board administrator who straight up banned Gay-Straight Alliances. And sure my hardcore Catholic friends are all "Gay people must remain celibate or go to Hell!" and "Condoms are evil and a conspiracy!" and "I'm remaining pure until marriage (except for that one time...and that other time...and that time with the dry humping...I'm a special snowflake and those don't count)!" and "OMFG there's a conspiracy to euthanize everyone!" ...But generally Catholic churches and schools only talk about abortion. Putting up massive anti-abortion billboards, mentioning it during the sermon, rewarding students for anti-abortion activism, arranging for students to skip school to go protest abortion, putting up anti-abortion posters in high school hallways...it's kinda ridiculous. I hope they move away from that shite. Or get de-funded since the state isn't supposed to endorse any particular religion, yet our taxes are paying to run Catholic schools.

[Many_Spaynes]

As an extremely EX Catholic, I found myself pretty much agreeing with this article. The title says it all: "Best Pope Ever Still Pretty Awful"

salon.com/2013/09/20/best_pope_ever_still_pretty_awful/

In April, Francis reaffirmed his predecessor’s censure of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, an umbrella organization that represents 80 percent of Catholic nuns in the United States. These nuns were penalized by the Vatican, and continue to be penalized, for focusing on poverty instead of stoking moral panic about the existence of gay people or sexually active teenagers — exactly the kind of community-centered work that Francis just declared sorely missing from the church.

In the report admonishing the sisters, and stripping them of the independent authority to develop their own charter and conduct their own business, the Vatican said they were undermining “issues of crucial importance to the life of Church and society, such as the Church’s Biblical view of family life and human sexuality†and promoting “radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith.â€

Francis’ censure places these women under the full authority of the Vatican and its “program of reform,†which includes the appointment of three male bishops to manage the rewriting of the nuns’ conference statutes, review its community-based programs and otherwise ensure the group “properly†follows Catholic teaching.

[bananacat]

There's a lot more to the Catholic church than just the U.S. version of it. The Catholic church has a tight grip on the legal systems of many countries in Central and South America and they absolutely do make a big stinking deal about outlawing abortion. It's a luxury in the U.S. to have priests who just don't make a big deal about abortion and contraception, but others are not nearly as lucky. That said, I still don't give Pope Francis any credit. Even if others listen to him, they will still continue to restrict abortion in line with Catholic doctrine but will just not be quite so loud about it.

[Minerva]

There's a lot more to the Catholic church than just the U.S. version of it. The Catholic church has a tight grip on the legal systems of many countries in Central and South America and they absolutely do make a big stinking deal about outlawing abortion. It's a luxury in the U.S. to have priests who just don't make a big deal about abortion and contraception, but others are not nearly as lucky. That said, I still don't give Pope Francis any credit. Even if others listen to him, they will still continue to restrict abortion in line with Catholic doctrine but will just not be quite so loud about it.

This. The Pope's gentle suggestion that people tone down the anti-abortion activism will mean nothing to the thousands of people who can't access a safe abortion at all because of the Pope.

[Pam]

I want to see fundie Catholics explode over this. Get lost, Frothy. We don't need you.

If not Frothy, will the Stinking Lousewife do?

thinkinghousewife.com/wp/2013/09/jorge-bergoglio-and-the-vacant-throne/

[gustava]

As an extremely EX Catholic, I found myself pretty much agreeing with this article. The title says it all: "Best Pope Ever Still Pretty Awful"

salon.com/2013/09/20/best_pope_ever_still_pretty_awful/

In April, Francis reaffirmed his predecessor’s censure of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, an umbrella organization that represents 80 percent of Catholic nuns in the United States. These nuns were penalized by the Vatican, and continue to be penalized, for focusing on poverty instead of stoking moral panic about the existence of gay people or sexually active teenagers — exactly the kind of community-centered work that Francis just declared sorely missing from the church.

In the report admonishing the sisters, and stripping them of the independent authority to develop their own charter and conduct their own business, the Vatican said they were undermining “issues of crucial importance to the life of Church and society, such as the Church’s Biblical view of family life and human sexuality†and promoting “radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith.â€

And he just defrocked an Australian priest who supports gays. Of course, the priest had already quit the church....but still.....

Francis’ censure places these women under the full authority of the Vatican and its “program of reform,†which includes the appointment of three male bishops to manage the rewriting of the nuns’ conference statutes, review its community-based programs and otherwise ensure the group “properly†follows Catholic teaching.

[Minerva]

If not Frothy, will the Stinking Lousewife do?

thinkinghousewife.com/wp/2013/09/jorge-bergoglio-and-the-vacant-throne/

She is literally losing sleep over the pope's "heresies".

[lizziesmom]

So essentially Pope Francis is the best of the worst. The entire history of the Catholic church is so paternalistic that his actions don't surprise me in the least. I am hopeful that he is throwing these statements out to test the waters and begin a dialogue. It will take centuries IMO before anything changes as far as gays and women are concerned, if at all, within the church hiearchy and structure.

[Ralar]

I think Pope Francis is all talk.

Pope Francis has ordered the excommunication of a Catholic priest in Australia who illicitly said Mass, taught that women should be ordained priests and advocated for “gay marriage.â€

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-excommunicates-dissident-priest-in-australia/

[Diana]

I think Pope Francis is all talk.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-excommunicates-dissident-priest-in-australia/

however reading it he was not excomunicated just for taught that about women but for this :

The Catholic Church requires priests to have faculties, or the approval of Church authorities, to licitly celebrate Mass. Catholic teaching is that women cannot be ordained priests for ecclesial reasons..

So he used his condition of priest to doing something that he cant do (ordained womans)

also this thing of they feeding a dog the Holy Eucharist in mass sounds weird, we should know more about this case to judge

[Pam]

She is literally losing sleep over the pope's "heresies".

I know, that cracked me right up when I read it! :lol:

[Many_Spaynes]

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss:

newslo.com/pope-criminalizes-the-reporting-of-sex-crimes/

Few eyebrows were raised last week when Pope Francis brought the Vatican’s legal system up to date by criminalizing leaks of official information and formalizing laws against sex crimes. But now that the laws have been made public, a closer look revealed that the pope has made it illegal to report sex crimes against children.

According to the new laws, revealing or receiving confidential Vatican information is now punishable by up to two years in prison, while newly defined sex crimes against children carry a sentence of up to twelve years. Because all sex crimes are kept confidential, there is no longer a legal way for Vatican officials to report sex crimes.

[CorruptionInc.]

Certainly a vast improvement over his predecessor.

Very true.

Although if I make a joke about the pope "live tweeting" during mass, my parents look at me like they would slap me with a fish, if one were available.

[musikat]

No pope will be perfect, however I do think Pope Francis shows promise. I also think that his hands are tied to some degree and that some of the actions he does he does because he "has" to but others are his true way of trying to make change in the church and bring people back to the faith.