Pope Francis: Church can't 'interfere' with gays

[doggie]

well he is getting better I think.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/09/1 ... with-gays/

(CNN) - Pope Francis said the church has the right to express its opinions but not to "interfere spiritually" in the lives of gays and lesbians, expanding on explosive comments he made in July about not judging homosexuals.

In a wide-ranging interview published Thursday, the pope also said that women must play a key role in church decisions and brushed off critics who say he should be more vocal about fighting abortion and gay marriage.

Moreover, if the church fails to find a "new balance" between its spiritual and political missions, the pope warned, its moral foundation will "fall like a house of cards."

The interview, released by Jesuit magazines in several different languages and 16 countries on Thursday, offers perhaps the most expansive and in-depth view of Francis' vision for the Roman Catholic Church.

The pope's comments don't break with Catholic doctrine or policy, but instead show a shift in approach, moving from censure to engagement.

Elected in March with the expectation that he would try to reform the Vatican, an institution that many observers say is riven by corruption and turf wars, Francis said his first mission is to change the church's "attitude."

"The church has sometimes locked itself up in small things," the pope said, "in small-minded rules."

"The people of God want pastors," Francis continued, "not clergy acting like bureaucrats or government officials."

MORE ON CNN: New interview shows why the pope is so beloved

The interview was conducted by the Rev. Antonio Spadaro, editor of La Civilta Cattolica, a Jesuit journal based in Rome, over three meetings this August at Francis' apartment in Rome.

The pope approved the transcript in Italian, according to America magazine, a Jesuit journal based in New York that initiated the interview and supervised its translation into English.

Advance copies of the interview were provided to several news organizations, including CNN.

Jesuits from around the world submitted questions to Spadaro. Francis answered them with the frankness that has become a hallmark of his young papacy.

To begin the interview, Spadoro bluntly asks, "Who is Jorge Mario Bergolio?" - Francis's name before he was elected pope.

"I am a sinner," the pope answers. "This is the most accurate definition. It is not a figure of speech, a literary genre. I am a sinner.â€

The pope didn't mention any particular sins, and Catholic theology holds that all humans are sinners, a consequence of Adam and Eve's original transgression. Still, a pope describing himself foremost as "sinner" is striking.

MORE ON CNN: The pope said what? Six stunners from Francis

Offering new glimpses of his personal life, Francis said he prays at the dentist's office and felt trapped in the Vatican's traditional papal apartments. (He moved to a smaller one in a nearby building.) He has a taste for tragic artists and Italian films and keeps the will of his beloved grandmother in his prayerbook.

But it was the pope's vision for the church's future - painted in broad strokes - that's sure to rile or inspire Catholics, depending on which side of the church they sit.

Here are some highlights:

On Women

Francis said, emphatically, that the "door is closed," on women's ordination, a statement that disappointed many Catholic liberals.

But that doesn't mean the church should consider women secondary or inferior, Francis said. "The feminine genius is needed wherever we make important decisions," he told Spadora.

Francis also called on Catholics to think hard about the function of women in the church.

"Women are asking deep questions that must be addressed," the pope said. "The church cannot be herself without the woman and her role."

On Homosexuality

When Francis was a bishop in Buenos Aires, Argentina, he received letters from gays and lesbians who said they were "socially wounded" by the church, he said.

"But the church does not want to do this," Francis said in the interview.

The pope then recalled his comments in July, when he told the media aboard a flight to Rome, "Who am I to judge" gay people?

MORE ON CNN: Pope Francis on gays: 'Who am I to judge?'

"By saying this, I said what the catechism says," the pope told Spadaro. The catechism, the Catholic Church's book of official doctrine, condemns homosexual acts, but says gays and lesbians "must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity."

"Religion has the right to express its opinion in the service of the people, but God in creation has set us free: it is not possible to interfere spiritually in the life of a person."

Francis said that someone once asked him if he "approved" of homosexuality.

"I replied with another question," he said. "`Tell me, when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?’ We must always consider the person. Here we enter into the mystery of the human being."

Abortion, gay marriage and contraception

Some American Catholics grumble that Francis has been largely silent on signature Catholic political issues.

"I’m a little bit disappointed in Pope Francis that he hasn’t, at least that I’m aware of, said much about unborn children, about abortion, and many people have noticed that," Bishop Thomas Tobin of Providence, Rhode Island, said earlier this month.

Francis said that he's aware of the criticism, but he is not going to change.

“We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods," he told his Jesuit interviewer. "I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that."

But the pope said the church's teachings on those issue are clear, and he clearly believes in those teachings, so what else is there to say?

"It is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time," Francis said.

False prophets and quick decisions

Only false prophets claim to have all the answers, Francis said.

"The great leaders of the people of God, like Moses, have always left room for doubt," he said. "You must leave room for the Lord."

But church leaders, including himself, haven't always practiced humility, the pope admitted.

Many of the bad decisions he made while leading Catholics in Argentina came about because of his "authoritarianism and quick manner of making decisions," the pope said.

That won't happen again, Francis said, as he begins to steer the church in a new direction.

He didn't offer an exact course, but he said change will come. Sooner or later.

"Many think that changes and reforms can take place in a short time," he said. "I believe that we always need time to lay the foundations for real, effective change. And this is the time of discernment."

Eric Marrapodi - CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: Catholic Church • Christianity • Church • Culture wars • Gay rights • Pope Francis • Vatican

[tropaka]

I wonder if his comments about not focusing on contraception, abortion and gay marriage are a hand slap to some of the US Bishops who generally stick to those topics. Also, his views on woman must rile the same groups as they helped gang up on US Nuns for focusing more on social justice/helping the poor than on abortion/gay marriage.

[flyawaystray]

I won't believe it until I see it, tbh.

[wayward]

Certainly a vast improvement over his predecessor.

[lawlifelgbt]

I like this, but I'll rethink Catholics when I see change in the churches and people.

[Boogalou]

How is he steering the church in a new direction? Nothing significant is actually changing, only his focus is.

And this?

Francis said, emphatically, that the "door is closed," on women's ordination, a statement that disappointed many Catholic liberals.

But that doesn't mean the church should consider women secondary or inferior, Francis said. "The feminine genius is needed wherever we make important decisions," he told Spadora.

It's hard to celebrate someone who says shit like this in 2013. Sure, Francis is slightly better than the old guard. But, let's face it, he doesn't have much competition.

[OkToBeTakei]

Sometimes it is what they DO NOT say that is important.

For him to say we will consider female ordination is like Barack saying I will ban guns tomorrow. Yeah. One will lose an election, other will 'die' in his sleep.

I think he is a clever man.

I do not think he will get far unfortunately.

I think he will die trying in one form or another and at least he is willing to be ambiguous which actually is quite daring for a Pope.

[kpmom]

How is he steering the church in a new direction? Nothing significant is actually changing, only his focus is.

And this?

It's hard to celebrate someone who says shit like this in 2013. Sure, Francis is slightly better than the old guard. But, let's face it, he doesn't have much competition.

This x 1000. And where is all this feminine genius when he is making important decisions? Are there any women in the hierarchy at the Vatican? If not, and I sincerely doubt there is, then he is not getting any "feminine genius" input.

This is no better than the fundies saying women must submit to their husbands, who get the final say at home in everything, but this doesn't make women inferior. It's just their different roles, doncha know.

[meep]

Kind of on topic - does anyone know if women can keep their ordination if they are Catholics under the Anglican rite? If the church decides to be adopted under Roman Catholicism, do the women have to give up their position?

[Mela99]

I want to see fundie Catholics explode over this. Get lost, Frothy. We don't need you.

[PennySycamore]

Kind of on topic - does anyone know if women can keep their ordination if they are Catholics under the Anglican rite? If the church decides to be adopted under Roman Catholicism, do the women have to give up their position?

I don't think the Church of England is seeking union with Rome. There are individual Anglican priests that become Catholic, but I don't know of any women priests that have and can't really imagine that they would. Now, Anglican priests who are married can become Catholic priests and still be married. Of course, priestly celibacy was always optional in the Eastern rite of the Church.

This brings up something else that I think Pope Francis has said: He is open to married priests! Yay!!

[lilwriter85]

I want to see fundie Catholics explode over this. Get lost, Frothy. We don't need you.

Oh I'm waiting for that too.

[samithemage]

I'm tentatively optimistic. Changes in such a large bureaucracy take time, but he at least seems somewhat open to change and liberalization, which can only be a good thing.

[Becket70]

Oh I'm waiting for that too.

I'm waiting, specifically, for Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia's head to explode. I suspect he will ignore what the Pope said, though.

[Gertie]

The full interview is here: http://www.americamagazine.org/pope-interview

It's worth noting that as far as I can see, he didn't "emphatically" say that the door is closed on women's ordination, though perhaps that's what he implies when he says "we musn't confuse function with dignity." Here is the part about women from the interview:

Women in the Life of the Church

And what about the role of women in the church? The pope has made ​​reference to this issue on several occasions. He took up the matter during the return trip from Rio de Janeiro, claiming that the church still lacks a profound theology of women. I ask: “What should be the role of women in the church? How do we make their role more visible today?”

He answers: “I am wary of a solution that can be reduced to a kind of ‘female machismo,’ because a woman has a different make-up than a man. But what I hear about the role of women is often inspired by an ideology of machismo. Women are asking deep questions that must be addressed. The church cannot be herself without the woman and her role. The woman is essential for the church. Mary, a woman, is more important than the bishops. I say this because we must not confuse the function with the dignity. We must therefore investigate further the role of women in the church. We have to work harder to develop a profound theology of the woman. Only by making this step will it be possible to better reflect on their function within the church. The feminine genius is needed wherever we make important decisions. The challenge today is this: to think about the specific place of women also in those places where the authority of the church is exercised for various areas of the church.”

[Nothing2CHere]

As someone raised Catholic who still goes to church occasionally, my take on this is that it's going back to the way I remember things being when I was growing up. Church dogma is that using birth control is a sin, and engaging in homosexual acts is a sin, but we (the Catholic Church) are not going to harp on that, get back to feeding the poor and taking care of the sick. It's the Catholic version of "Don't ask don't tell."

[FreeJosie]

I want to see fundie Catholics explode over this. Get lost, Frothy. We don't need you.

Anything that pisses Frothy off is fine by me!

[formergothardite]

How is he steering the church in a new direction? Nothing significant is actually changing, only his focus is.

And this?

It's hard to celebrate someone who says shit like this in 2013. Sure, Francis is slightly better than the old guard. But, let's face it, he doesn't have much competition.

Exactly. It is like he is getting all this praise just because he could be worse.

[Hane]

Kind of on topic - does anyone know if women can keep their ordination if they are Catholics under the Anglican rite? If the church decides to be adopted under Roman Catholicism, do the women have to give up their position?

No way in heck will female Anglican/Episcopalian priests keep their ordinations should they convert to Roman Catholicism.

At a Catholic retreat nearly 20 years ago, a fairly liberal priest told us that many Anglican/Episcopalian priests convert to Roman Catholicism because they see the Anglican/Episcopalian churches as "getting too liberal." He did not approve of their actions.

[fundiefun]

As a practicing Catholic I still hold out hope that the groups Catholics for Choice and Catholics for Marriage Equality will grow as time goes on. It makes most Catholic's heads explode to know that such a group exists and how we want change I'll never forget reading on a forum that those of us who support those groups aren't really Catholic and should just call it a day.

[bananacat]

Pope Francis is absolutely not progressive in any way. He still holds terrible views; he just thinks they shouldn't be as heavily emphasized. Like, he's totally fine with actively preventing women from getting life-saving abortions, but it should just be a side project and not the main focus of everything. Everyone is so eager to give praise and gold stars, but at the end of the day he would still rather see me die than end a life-threatening pregnancy and I can't forget that no matter how much he is trying to hide and de-emphasize that fact.

[Boogalou]

Exactly. It is like he is getting all this praise just because he could be worse.

Right. Previously the Pope's priorities went something like this:

1. Get rid of all abortions and birth control

2. Keep people of the same sex from getting married and women from becoming priests

3. Help the poor (as long as the thing keeping them poor is women having more children than they can afford without any way to prevent that,)

Now the list of priorities goes something like this

1. Help the poor (as long as the thing keeping them poor is women having more children than they can afford without any way to prevent that)

2. Convince everyone there has been some great change when nothing has changed at all (at which they have been very succesful)

3. Get rid of all abortions and birth control

4. Keep people of the same sex from getting married and women from becoming priests

It's like saying the Duggars are better than the Maxwell's. It might be true but they are so marginally better it's not something to brag about.

[Minerva]

All of the conservative Catholics on my facebook have remained dead silent about this. I expect, if asked, they'd say there's nothing to talk about because he hasn't changed his position on anything (and they'd be right). But the reality is that the Catholic church is very much obsessed with abortion, as are most of the conservative Catholics I've ever met, and the Pope called them out for it. I hope there genuinely will be a shift away from anti-abortion activity in the church. That shit's annoying.

[FakePigtails]

All of the conservative Catholics on my facebook have remained dead silent about this. I expect, if asked, they'd say there's nothing to talk about because he hasn't changed his position on anything (and they'd be right). But the reality is that the Catholic church is very much obsessed with abortion, as are most of the conservative Catholics I've ever met, and the Pope called them out for it. I hope there genuinely will be a shift away from anti-abortion activity in the church. That shit's annoying.

The reactions I've seen have mostly included annoyance at the media for "twisting his words to make it to seem like the church doesn't care about abortion, gay marriage and contraception anymore" :roll:

[moonbeam59]

The Catholic church isn't going to transform overnight. I'm no Catholic but I hope these small improvements keep happening.