Some Mormons Search the Web and Find Doubt

[skinch]

I don't know if engineer5 is coming back, but if so, I have a question. Do you feel that, as a Mormon, you are fulfilling your potential as a man in accordance with the teachings of your faith? Is Mormonism helping you to find the things you desire in a spouse? Specifically, I'm talking about men being considered holders of the priesthood in Mormonism, and women being considered submissive helpmeets in marriage.

I'm genuinely curious. I've read that certain men who choose to convert to Mormonism in adulthood do so because they find it easier to get what they want in adult relationships with women.

I'm pretty sure that engineer5 is a woman. In the first page of this thread she mentioned wearing longer dresses in order to have a more modest appearance.

[lipstickgoalie]

Catholics aren't allowed to read the bible.

Like another poster asked, are you serious August?

[fundamentalistnomore]

I'm pretty sure that engineer5 is a woman. In the first page of this thread she mentioned wearing longer dresses in order to have a more modest appearance.

Well...I hope engineer5 isn't a troll. I hope she comes back & answers the questions. Just once, I'd like someone who is mormon to not disappear. Maybe if they stood by & defended valid questions, others wouldn't think their religion is so weird....

[formergothardite]

Her early posts don't seem troll like and even in this thread she doesn't, but she went a little crazy in the birth control one. Not sure if she is a troll or just a Mormon fundie who was not prepared for Free Jinger. I do hope she comes back.

[fakepigtails73]

"How do you feel about posthumous baptism, incidentally?"

Its a beautiful practice. I love the temple! No one is forcing anyone to be Mormon. I like this analogy where Baptism for the Dead is like leaving tickets at will call and hope that someone will join you at the show. We believe that after we die there is still so much opportunity for growth in the spirit and doing temple work helps us to participate in accomplishing the work.

I'm a Salt Lake Temple worker and everything in the temple is beautiful and edifying. It's a place where I feel close to heaven and this world's craziness goes away for a few hours.

Members of the church have gotten a little crazy ( submitting for Elvis and Jews in the holocaust which are against church policy) lately so to submit names there are a lot of rules.

To what I bolded in red: Yuck... :disgust: :wtf:

the LDS is the cult with the practices that I dislike the most after the C.O.S...

I have major probs with your practice of baptizing the dead. If Mormons believe that when they do so at their temples they offer their "gift of eternal salvation" then how can you guys justify putting Hitler's and Himmler's names alongside French Resistance leader Jean Moulin, whose death was the result of horrible tortures inflicted by Klaus Barbie and other SS henchmen. Although he died, Jean Moulin neaver snitched; that is, to me, a true hero. Also baptised posthumously was Olga Bancic, another member of the French Resistance. Romanian-born, member of the Manouchian group and the MOI, she was caught and ended up decapitated by the axe in Stuttgart by the Nazis. Do these two deserve to be in the same place as their butchers? :angry-banghead:

While I,m in the subject of dead baptisms, we can't forget that your church likewise did the same to many, many Jews who died during the Holocaust...Offering postumous salvation to Jean Moulin (a christian), to Olga Bancic (although a Jew she was an active communist so it's likely she had no religion) and to unfortunate Jews who were butchered BECAUSE OF THEIR RELIGION as to Nazi leaders looks like a sick joke to me.

I can't accept the "it can't hurt they are dead!" excuse.

[fakepigtails73]

Like another poster asked, are you serious August?

yeah, no kidding?

Of course they're allowed it ain't the years 1200 anymore.

[EyeQueue]

I forgot what poster it was above that asked about how Joseph Smith may have been influenced by sci-fi. Joseph Smith was murdered in 1944. Jules Verne flourished from the 1860s to the beginning of the Twentieth Century and HG Wells was a bit later, not being born until the 1860s. Mary Shelley had written Frankenstein which is considered to be the first science fiction novel in 1819. What is definitely true is that scientific discoveries (planets, elements, etc) were coming at a fairly rapid pace in the late 1700s into the 1800s and we were also beginning to see first efforts in archaeology.

ET a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science_fiction

Ooops...that was my bad for only taking a cursory look at the dates of these various people (and not paying attention to when Smith died).

Sorry! :embarrassed:

[ADoyle90815]

I don't think we'll see this troll today as it's her holiest day on the calendar, which is the anniversary of when the pioneers settled in Utah. They make a bigger deal out of Pioneer Day than they do the 4th of July or even Easter, since when their April conference is scheduled on Easter, they don't move the conference weekend at all, and basically ignore it. For a cult that claims to focus on the resurrected Christ, they barely acknowledge that resurrection itself.

[FJSharkJump]

You're right, it does sound arrogant :roll:

I took mlady's point to be that a person's addiction issues or wild/rough lifestyle likely has little to do with his or her atheism/godlessness. Those Christian convert testimonials that have become so cliche, as infooverload mentioned, give the impression that the previous lack-of-god/jesus must have been the reason that the convert had issues with substance abuse. A lot of people believe this. "If I/they had just had Jesus in my/their heart, I/they would have never become an addict/abuser/victim/lost/confused/needy/whatever in the first place." mlady was sharing her own experience -- she grew up without god/jesus/religion and never had any of those problems. Godlessness really doesn't equal becoming an addict/abuser/victim/lost/confused/needy/whatever.

[Jinger Jar]

But it's true so the eyeroll isn't necessary. Does that make me BETTER or SMARTER or LUCKIER or what? You tell me, I'm just telling you how it was. I never desired a live of alcohol, drugs or debauchery. Did you? If so, WHY? I wanted, and still want, to avoid trouble and live a good life and you don't need to be a genius to avoid certain things in life. I never NEEDED to be saved from myself by religion or any other sort of "system". I'm not perfect, I do stupid things sometimes and have made mistakes, but I didn't get to the point of needing the kind of help some people need when they convert. I've always looked at religion with a clear logical eye so it never made sense.

Beyond that I think everyone should be required to see Book of Mormon before converting. At least know the words to "I Believe" and commit them to memory.

Just to the bolded:

So people whose lives are consumed by illegal drugs and/or alcohol chose that for themselves and their families? As in they made a deliberate decision to become addicted to booze or heroin or meth? Or that they don't desire to live a good life?

Or are you saying people who are addicted to or abuse alcohol and/or controlled substances are stupid?

If you ascribe to either of these suppositions, I would be interested in your ideas about the psychology of addiction as well as the social epidemiology of substance abuse.

I understand your point about Christian testimony coming from individuals trying to overcome abuse, addiction and/or dangerous and unhealthy lifestyles. But to suggest that drug/alcohol abuse is a simple matter of personal choice or intelligence is that kind of black-and-white thinking the fundies we snark on come up with.

[Jezebel]

Well...I hope engineer5 isn't a troll. I hope she comes back & answers the questions. Just once, I'd like someone who is mormon to not disappear. Maybe if they stood by & defended valid questions, others wouldn't think their religion is so weird....

Oh, believe me, I'm still going to find their religion ridiculous no matter how faithfully they defend it. But I'll at least give them some credit for sticking it out as best they can, rather than running away when the questions get too uncomfortable or unanswerable.

And speaking for myself, an honest "I don't know," "I've never really thought about it that way," and "I'd never heard of that--can you point me to a reliable source so I can investigate that for myself?" are all answers I will accept graciously. But if you want to keep making the case for your religion, you'd better go find out, think it over in a new light, or go read the evidence I point you toward (and come back better evidence to refute it--evidence that does not require faith to see the truth of it). Otherwise, you're wasting your breath.

[lilwriter85]

There are some Mormons and ex Mormons who post on this board from time to time. But I can't really think of a poster who answered a lot of questions.

[formergothardite]

There are some Mormons and ex Mormons who post on this board from time to time. But I can't really think of a poster who answered a lot of questions.

Aren't handcuff(toaster marriage guy) and his wife Mormon? I know he stopped posting after that thread but didn't his wife keep on posting here? I can't remember her name but I thought she popped up in Mormon threads occasionally to say something about the Mormon church.

[Mama Mia]

Oh, believe me, I'm still going to find their religion ridiculous no matter how faithfully they defend it. But I'll at least give them some credit for sticking it out as best they can, rather than running away when the questions get too uncomfortable or unanswerable.

And speaking for myself, an honest "I don't know," "I've never really thought about it that way," and "I'd never heard of that--can you point me to a reliable source so I can investigate that for myself?" are all answers I will accept graciously. But if you want to keep making the case for your religion, you'd better go find out, think it over in a new light, or go read the evidence I point you toward (and come back better evidence to refute it--evidence that does not require faith to see the truth of it). Otherwise, you're wasting your breath.

I don't think it is at all surprising that someone wouldn't want to stick around and post. Look at the words used. They need to "defend" their belief. Are expected to find "evidence" to support their beliefs. Humbly ask people who are calling their beliefs "weird" and "ridiculous" for reading material so they can come back and politely say "I've never thought about it that way, or I've never heard about that" .

That doesn't seem to be a way to invite dialogue.

[paganhomeschooler]

You are being sarcastic, right?

That's what I was thinking, too! I went to 9 fucking years of Catholic school, and when we hit 6th grade, we read the bible from cover to cover. Even all of the so and so begets so and so. Good god, was that the most boring thing ever. 7th and 8th grade, we also read the bible, but we concentrated on different parts. My mom is still Catholic and has been reading the bible cover to cover. I told her to skip the "begets" chapters. lol

[fundamentalistnomore]

Oh, believe me, I'm still going to find their religion ridiculous no matter how faithfully they defend it. But I'll at least give them some credit for sticking it out as best they can, rather than running away when the questions get too uncomfortable or unanswerable.

And speaking for myself, an honest "I don't know," "I've never really thought about it that way," and "I'd never heard of that--can you point me to a reliable source so I can investigate that for myself?" are all answers I will accept graciously. But if you want to keep making the case for your religion, you'd better go find out, think it over in a new light, or go read the evidence I point you toward (and come back better evidence to refute it--evidence that does not require faith to see the truth of it). Otherwise, you're wasting your breath.

Her points were helpful to me. For the first time, someone explained how they justify 2 Nephi 5:21. (white & delightsome vs. skin of blackness) Although @ lds.org it references blackness to a verse that is about race. Still, it gave me insight into how some of their people might think. *I'm sure your religion isn't prejudiced, you have non-white members.* :roll: :roll: :roll:

Instead of sending mormon missionaries out to far away continents, they ought to send them to a Star Trek Convention or Comic Con. The nerd/SciFi population would be a gold mine!

[fundamentalistnomore]

I don't think it is at all surprising that someone wouldn't want to stick around and post. Look at the words used. They need to "defend" their belief. Are expected to find "evidence" to support their beliefs. Humbly ask people who are calling their beliefs "weird" and "ridiculous" for reading material so they can come back and politely say "I've never thought about it that way, or I've never heard about that" .

That doesn't seem to be a way to invite dialogue.

Are you Mormon, Mrs S2004? If so, would you mind answering a few questions? I don't see how anything we've asked is not inviting dialogue.

Also, this is FreeJinger. If you're gonna post about any religion, you'd better be prepared to defend it. I've been called on a post before. I came back with my source & people accepted my mistake & that was the end of it.

[nelliebelle1197]

Yeah, I didn't realize that we were so concerned about feelings around here.

[Jezebel]

This is going to come off sounding really arrogant

Yes, it does. Also deeply ignorant. Not to mention lacking the kind of imagination and empathy required to have an outsider's view of how people get caught up in addiction.

...but I was NEVER in a place in my life where I was lost or abusing anything or hanging out with the wrong crowd or on the wrong path.

Well good for you, sweetie. But that does not make you smarter than the average addict; it just means you had nothing in your experience that made drug use or excessive drinking seem like a worthwhile thing to do.

I had a severe drug and alcohol problem when I was in my late teens and early 20s. Some alcoholics and addicts can go for decades, but it took me only seven years to get from stealing the occasional bottle of crappy wine out of my dad's garage to the realization that I had to either quit or kill myself because I couldn't take it any more.

And I didn't start abusing alcohol and drugs because I was stupid. It wasn't that I didn't have a "pretty good brain" like yours. It was because I was in so much fucking pain, and was so consumed by my fear of life, and getting drunk or high once in a while gave me a break from it.

I started out drinking and getting high as self-medication for crippling anxiety and depression. Alcohol also reduced my inhibitions enough to allow me to vent my rage--which I had a lot of. Getting drunk and smashing shit, or even just bawling for a couple of hours straight, was like a pressure-release valve. At first, it helped me feel better for days or weeks afterward. But as it came time to graduate from high school and move out on my own, I started drinking and using more in order to cope with my anxiety. I didn't feel prepared for adult life at all, and at the time my family was still in turmoil and there was nobody I trusted enough to confide in. So a glass of wine or two gave me a bit of courage, and smoking pot helped me quiet the noise in my head so I could get to sleep.

But as with any medication, you build up tolerances to booze and drugs. Over time, it took more of them, more often, to keep all the crap in my head at bay. Eventually, rather than helping me keep my shit together, it began to seriously impair my ability to function.

And you may pipe up and ask, "Well, if it was so bad and you're so smart, why didn't you just get help?"

Because it's not that fucking simple, that's why. I honestly felt I was beyond help. My parents sent me to a couple of different shrinks when I was in middle school, and neither one was of any help at all. I'd always been an odd kid, and had grown into an odd adult, and I was so used to being misunderstood by everyone around me that it wasn't a big leap to think that nobody could help me. I was too weird, too different; nobody would get it. Or they'd just think I was trying to be contrary and difficult (a common refrain through my childhood).

So I drank more and more, turned to harder drugs more often, and ended up with a circle of "friends" who at least did not judge me for that because they were all medicating their own pain, too. They vanished the instant I sobered up, but while I was still drinking and using they actually gave me a sense of belonging to a group that I'd never had before. Sure, we were all fuckups and losers, but we looked after each other, helped each other out, and had fun together.

I finally hit rock-bottom about six months after a relationship ended. I'd never been in love before, got my heart broken, and it was like every rejection in my life all wrapped up in one. I went into free-fall. It was like the bottom had dropped out of my life and I just kept going down, down, down, and I didn't care about anything anymore. I just gave up.

I still remember the morning I woke up, having hit bottom. I spent a couple of hours sitting on the edge of my bed, trying to get the nerve up to blow my brains out. I couldn't do it, and ended up calling AA instead.

I spent four years hanging out in AA meetings. It was a lousy fit because I was an atheist, but it gave me a place to go instead of bars or parties. It gave me people to hang out with who were also trying to get their shit together. I read a ridiculous number of self-help books, filled half a dozen cardboard file boxes with journals in which I dissected my life and emotional states, took up meditation to quiet my racing brain, and gradually things got better. I learned how to manage depression and anxiety. I found healthier outlets for my anger. I made peace with the fact that I'm weird. But I won't lie--it took me years, it was excruciatingly painful at times, and it was a lot of hard work. Had I known on that morning I hit bottom just how painful and difficult it would be I probably would have gone ahead and blown my brains out.

I had a normal, non religious upbringing and a pretty good brain that I used to keep myself out of trouble. I swear on everything that's holy to you....it was NOT hard.

It was not hard for you because there was no compelling reason for you to seek out "trouble." To you it was trouble; to me (and countless other addicts) it was relief. I doubt you'll understand that--and frankly, I don't expect you to.

[Mama Mia]

Yeah, I didn't realize that we were so concerned about feelings around here.

It has nothing to do with being concerned about feelings. It's about it being unrealistic to basically tell someone their beliefs are stupid and they basically need to write a thesis to defend their religion and expect them to want to stick around and have a discussuion. Particularly when people state that no matter what the person says you will still think they are wrong. What does the other person in the discussion get out of it?

[nelliebelle1197]

Yes, it does. Also deeply ignorant. Not to mention lacking the kind of imagination and empathy required to have an outsider's view of how people get caught up in addiction.

Well good for you, sweetie. But that does not make you smarter than the average addict; it just means you had nothing in your experience that made drug use or excessive drinking seem like a worthwhile thing to do.

I had a severe drug and alcohol problem when I was in my late teens and early 20s. Some alcoholics and addicts can go for decades, but it took me only seven years to get from stealing the occasional bottle of crappy wine out of my dad's garage to the realization that I had to either quit or kill myself because I couldn't take it any more.

And I didn't start abusing alcohol and drugs because I was stupid. It wasn't that I didn't have a "pretty good brain" like yours. It was because I was in so much fucking pain, and was so consumed by my fear of life, and getting drunk or high once in a while gave me a break from it.

I started out drinking and getting high as self-medication for crippling anxiety and depression. Alcohol also reduced my inhibitions enough to allow me to vent my rage--which I had a lot of. Getting drunk and smashing shit, or even just bawling for a couple of hours straight, was like a pressure-release valve. At first, it helped me feel better for days or weeks afterward. But as it came time to graduate from high school and move out on my own, I started drinking and using more in order to cope with my anxiety. I didn't feel prepared for adult life at all, and at the time my family was still in turmoil and there was nobody I trusted enough to confide in. So a glass of wine or two gave me a bit of courage, and smoking pot helped me quiet the noise in my head so I could get to sleep.

But as with any medication, you build up tolerances to booze and drugs. Over time, it took more of them, more often, to keep all the crap in my head at bay. Eventually, rather than helping me keep my shit together, it began to seriously impair my ability to function.

And you may pipe up and ask, "Well, if it was so bad and you're so smart, why didn't you just get help?"

Because it's not that fucking simple, that's why. I honestly felt I was beyond help. My parents sent me to a couple of different shrinks when I was in middle school, and neither one was of any help at all. I'd always been an odd kid, and had grown into an odd adult, and I was so used to being misunderstood by everyone around me that it wasn't a big leap to think that nobody could help me. I was too weird, too different; nobody would get it. Or they'd just think I was trying to be contrary and difficult (a common refrain through my childhood).

So I drank more and more, turned to harder drugs more often, and ended up with a circle of "friends" who at least did not judge me for that because they were all medicating their own pain, too. They vanished the instant I sobered up, but while I was still drinking and using they actually gave me a sense of belonging to a group that I'd never had before. Sure, we were all fuckups and losers, but we looked after each other, helped each other out, and had fun together.

I finally hit rock-bottom about six months after a relationship ended. I'd never been in love before, got my heart broken, and it was like every rejection in my life all wrapped up in one. I went into free-fall. It was like the bottom had dropped out of my life and I just kept going down, down, down, and I didn't care about anything anymore. I just gave up.

I still remember the morning I woke up, having hit bottom. I spent a couple of hours sitting on the edge of my bed, trying to get the nerve up to blow my brains out. I couldn't do it, and ended up calling AA instead.

I spent four years hanging out in AA meetings. It was a lousy fit because I was an atheist, but it gave me a place to go instead of bars or parties. It gave me people to hang out with who were also trying to get their shit together. I read a ridiculous number of self-help books, filled half a dozen cardboard file boxes with journals in which I dissected my life and emotional states, took up meditation to quiet my racing brain, and gradually things got better. I learned how to manage depression and anxiety. I found healthier outlets for my anger. I made peace with the fact that I'm weird. But I won't lie--it took me years, it was excruciatingly painful at times, and it was a lot of hard work. Had I known on that morning I hit bottom just how painful and difficult it would be I probably would have gone ahead and blown my brains out.

It was not hard for you because there was no compelling reason for you to seek out "trouble." To you it was trouble; to me (and countless other addicts) it was relief. I doubt you'll understand that--and frankly, I don't expect you to.

Amen. My story is very similar and the op has zero idea what she is talking about and really shouldn't speak on things about which she is obviously quite ignorant.

[nelliebelle1197]

Yes, it does. Also deeply ignorant. Not to mention lacking the kind of imagination and empathy required to have an outsider's view of how people get caught up in addiction.

Well good for you, sweetie. But that does not make you smarter than the average addict; it just means you had nothing in your experience that made drug use or excessive drinking seem like a worthwhile thing to do.

I had a severe drug and alcohol problem when I was in my late teens and early 20s. Some alcoholics and addicts can go for decades, but it took me only seven years to get from stealing the occasional bottle of crappy wine out of my dad's garage to the realization that I had to either quit or kill myself because I couldn't take it any more.

And I didn't start abusing alcohol and drugs because I was stupid. It wasn't that I didn't have a "pretty good brain" like yours. It was because I was in so much fucking pain, and was so consumed by my fear of life, and getting drunk or high once in a while gave me a break from it.

I started out drinking and getting high as self-medication for crippling anxiety and depression. Alcohol also reduced my inhibitions enough to allow me to vent my rage--which I had a lot of. Getting drunk and smashing shit, or even just bawling for a couple of hours straight, was like a pressure-release valve. At first, it helped me feel better for days or weeks afterward. But as it came time to graduate from high school and move out on my own, I started drinking and using more in order to cope with my anxiety. I didn't feel prepared for adult life at all, and at the time my family was still in turmoil and there was nobody I trusted enough to confide in. So a glass of wine or two gave me a bit of courage, and smoking pot helped me quiet the noise in my head so I could get to sleep.

But as with any medication, you build up tolerances to booze and drugs. Over time, it took more of them, more often, to keep all the crap in my head at bay. Eventually, rather than helping me keep my shit together, it began to seriously impair my ability to function.

And you may pipe up and ask, "Well, if it was so bad and you're so smart, why didn't you just get help?"

Because it's not that fucking simple, that's why. I honestly felt I was beyond help. My parents sent me to a couple of different shrinks when I was in middle school, and neither one was of any help at all. I'd always been an odd kid, and had grown into an odd adult, and I was so used to being misunderstood by everyone around me that it wasn't a big leap to think that nobody could help me. I was too weird, too different; nobody would get it. Or they'd just think I was trying to be contrary and difficult (a common refrain through my childhood).

So I drank more and more, turned to harder drugs more often, and ended up with a circle of "friends" who at least did not judge me for that because they were all medicating their own pain, too. They vanished the instant I sobered up, but while I was still drinking and using they actually gave me a sense of belonging to a group that I'd never had before. Sure, we were all fuckups and losers, but we looked after each other, helped each other out, and had fun together.

I finally hit rock-bottom about six months after a relationship ended. I'd never been in love before, got my heart broken, and it was like every rejection in my life all wrapped up in one. I went into free-fall. It was like the bottom had dropped out of my life and I just kept going down, down, down, and I didn't care about anything anymore. I just gave up.

I still remember the morning I woke up, having hit bottom. I spent a couple of hours sitting on the edge of my bed, trying to get the nerve up to blow my brains out. I couldn't do it, and ended up calling AA instead.

I spent four years hanging out in AA meetings. It was a lousy fit because I was an atheist, but it gave me a place to go instead of bars or parties. It gave me people to hang out with who were also trying to get their shit together. I read a ridiculous number of self-help books, filled half a dozen cardboard file boxes with journals in which I dissected my life and emotional states, took up meditation to quiet my racing brain, and gradually things got better. I learned how to manage depression and anxiety. I found healthier outlets for my anger. I made peace with the fact that I'm weird. But I won't lie--it took me years, it was excruciatingly painful at times, and it was a lot of hard work. Had I known on that morning I hit bottom just how painful and difficult it would be I probably would have gone ahead and blown my brains out.

It was not hard for you because there was no compelling reason for you to seek out "trouble." To you it was trouble; to me (and countless other addicts) it was relief. I doubt you'll understand that--and frankly, I don't expect you to.

Amen. My story is very similar and the op has zero idea what she is talking about and really shouldn't speak on things about which she is obviously quite ignorant.

[Mama Mia]

Are you Mormon, Mrs S2004? If so, would you mind answering a few questions? I don't see how anything we've asked is not inviting dialogue.

Also, this is FreeJinger. If you're gonna post about any religion, you'd better be prepared to defend it. I've been called on a post before. I came back with my source & people accepted my mistake & that was the end of it.

No, I'm not a Mormon. I think the attitude that you need to defend your faith based on evidence is kind of silly. Faith in religion, any religion, isn't based on evidence, its based on, well, faith, so demanding evidence and treating it like a trial, where you've already decided the verdict, isn't very productive. People having theological discussions is one thing, but starting out by saying you find someone's beliefs ridiculous is hardly the way to get someone to want to engage with you.

Wow, that is a huge run on sentence, and horribly worded. Grammar police fire away :embarrassed:

[Rachel333]

As problematic as I find a lot of LDS teachings to be, it really bugs me when people act like Mormonism is uniquely crazy and horrible while giving a pass to other religions. Yes, Mormons have baptized Hitler (because they believe in baptizing everyone, not to mention that it only takes one person to decide to take that on for the church to have Hitler on record as being baptized), so he might be in the telestial kingdom--the lowest level of heaven--along with some of the Jews he killed. Meanwhile mainstream Christianity teaches that Hitler is probably being tortured for eternity--along with the Jews he killed. I find that much more objectionable, personally.

[Renting with Raggles]

No, I'm not a Mormon. I think the attitude that you need to defend your faith based on evidence is kind of silly. Faith in religion, any religion, isn't based on evidence, its based on, well, faith, so demanding evidence and treating it like a trial, where you've already decided the verdict, isn't very productive. People having theological discussions is one thing, but starting out by saying you find someone's beliefs ridiculous is hardly the way to get someone to want to engage with you.

Wow, that is a huge run on sentence, and horribly worded. Grammar police fire away :embarrassed:

But religious people often expect their beliefs to be given equal or greater consideration than fact-based statements or positions. They demand that secular people give evidence for their opinions, but are themselves exempt?

A few weeks ago I was given shit by religious teachers when I corrected faith based statements they made in front of students. A Mormon teacher told secondary students that some Native Americans were related to the Israelites (DNA studies say no), a Pentecostal put forward some Lamarckian nonsense about children inheriting characteristics and habits that their fathers(and only their fathers, for some reason) had acquired over their lifetime (again, science says no). Their rebuttal to the evidence I presented to the kids? "You're not allowed to say that!"

The feeling of religious people trump reality, thanks for making that clear. Is it any wonder that non-believers are fed up?