Some Mormons Search the Web and Find Doubt

[EyeQueue]

I get the feeling that with the planets, Angel Moroni, ancient Egyptian writing, buried things, postumous baptism, that Joseph Smith, had he been born 100 yrs later would have been competing strongly with L Ron Hubbard for converts. Imagine what the LDS church would look like, had sci-fi been invented!

Plural Thetan marriages, emeter sec checks on if you believe in the BoM...

I think you might be onto something here. The "first wave" of sci-fi writers were at work during Smith's lifetime (e.g. Jules Verne and H.G. Wells), so there were already stories about traveling to other plants, etc. out in the popular culture. I'm not sure whether or not Smith would have been exposed to them.

I mean, the guy claimed he saw men living on the moon--dressed like the Quaker oats guy. :lol: :lol:

Scientology and Mormonism certainly seem to have a lot in common.

[formergothardite]

Aww, I just saw the other thread and engineer is probably a troll. I guess I'm not going to get an answer to my question. I am genuinely curious how she justifies saying that baptizing some groups is wrong and crazy but baptizing your relative is okay. Either way you are showing a complete lack of respect for the life of the person and their friends and relatives.

Does anyone know if Mormons really believe that men get their own planet with a ton of wives? I've always heard that is what they believed.

[KitCatCadillac]

This thread reminded me of when I was a little kid and saw a commercial for LDS on TV. A former Miss America talked about how there was another section to the Bible, and it changed her life, and they'll send us one for free. My tiny mind thought, "Holy crap! I have to let everybody know about this!" So I told my mom, and she told me that the Book of Mormon wasn't true, and these people were wrong. I asked why they were lying to people. She said they weren't lying, just mistaken. Along with my dad's insistence that the Greek/Roman gods were completely real to the people of that time period, I think this incident kind of made the foundation for my current agnosticism.

[Rachel333]

Aww, I just saw the other thread and engineer is probably a troll. I guess I'm not going to get an answer to my question. I am genuinely curious how she justifies saying that baptizing some groups is wrong and crazy but baptizing your relative is okay. Either way you are showing a complete lack of respect for the life of the person and their friends and relatives.

Does anyone know if Mormons really believe that men get their own planet with a ton of wives? I've always heard that is what they believed.

Because it's your own relative? I think that makes sense, but I may not entirely understand the question, and I have a hard time seeing the baptisms as a big deal anyway. They do also believe that technically the baptism just offers the deceased a choice--it's not a forced conversion.

The thing with your own planet is a bit misunderstood, I think. My understanding (and I'm not LDS, so of course keep that in mind) is that some believe that eventually if you reach the celestial kingdom you will have a chance to create your own world, like God, and that's where the planet thing comes from. Not all LDS believe exactly the same way, and some believe that we will become like God (or like Heavenly Mother if you're female, which is a whole other thing--some believe there are many Heavenly Mothers, some just one, some don't really believe in her at all, and then some believe she or they are subservient to God while others see her as an equally powerful, though silent, partner with God) with our own crop of spiritual children to guide on their planet, while others believe that we will become gods and goddesses--that lack of capitalization is important--divine, but not like God/Heavenly Father. I know other Christians freak out when they hear that, but the latter concept is actually Biblically supported. From the way most LDS talk about the Celestial Kingdom, I feel like their concept of it isn't terribly different from most Christians' idea of heaven. Note that they essentially don't believe in hell, which I really appreciate. They at least pay lip service to the idea that all religions have some truth, which I feel like is more than most conservative Christians can manage.

[lilwriter85]

This thread reminded me of when I was a little kid and saw a commercial for LDS on TV. A former Miss America talked about how there was another section to the Bible, and it changed her life, and they'll send us one for free. My tiny mind thought, "Holy crap! I have to let everybody know about this!" So I told my mom, and she told me that the Book of Mormon wasn't true, and these people were wrong. I asked why they were lying to people. She said they weren't lying, just mistaken. Along with my dad's insistence that the Greek/Roman gods were completely real to the people of that time period, I think this incident kind of made the foundation for my current agnosticism.

I remember those commercials too. They used to air a lot on our local affiliate channels back in the 90s and early 00s. My dad considered getting a BOM copy through those commercials mainly because he had read BOM back in the late 60s. My dad was in military during that time and he met a few Mormons in the military who gave out copies. My dad said that BOM was an interesting read, but he didn't say anything else.

[Rachel333]

My dad was in military during that time and he met a few Mormons in the military who gave out copies. My dad said that BOM was an interesting read, but he didn't say anything else.

That surprises me somewhat. :lol: I have my own BoM (given to me by some really lovely sister missionaries who I met with for a while, so I'm actually fond of it for that reason), but I've never quite made it all the way through because it is so boring and poorly written. I'm pretty sure you could take out a third of it just from eliminating all the instances of "it came to pass." :lol:

[formergothardite]

Because it's your own relative? I think that makes sense, but I may not entirely understand the question, and I have a hard time seeing the baptisms as a big deal anyway. They do also believe that technically the baptism just offers the deceased a choice--it's not a forced conversion.

The thing with your own planet is a bit misunderstood, I think. My understanding (and I'm not LDS, so of course keep that in mind) is that some believe that eventually if you reach the celestial kingdom you will have a chance to create your own world, like God, and that's where the planet thing comes from. Not all LDS believe exactly the same way, and some believe that we will become like God (or like Heavenly Mother if you're female, which is a whole other thing--some believe there are many Heavenly Mothers, some just one, some don't really believe in her at all, and then some believe she or they are subservient to God while others see her as an equally powerful, though silent, partner with God) with our own crop of spiritual children to guide on their planet, while others believe that we will become gods and goddesses--that lack of capitalization is important--divine, but not like God/Heavenly Father. I know other Christians freak out when they hear that, but the latter concept is actually Biblically supported. From the way most LDS talk about the Celestial Kingdom, I feel like their concept of it isn't terribly different from most Christians' idea of heaven. Note that they essentially don't believe in hell, which I really appreciate. They at least pay lip service to the idea that all religions have some truth, which I feel like is more than most conservative Christians can manage.

Even if it is a relative, if it isn't something they supported during their life, then it is not respectful of their life to do that to them. I'm an atheist, my parents are Christian, but I have some super distant relatives that I've never seen except in pictures who are Mormon. If after I died they decided to baptize me, even though it is pure bullshit, it still shows a complete lack of respect for my beliefs and it would offend my parents. I'm assuming they say it is wrong to baptize Jewish ancestors who died in the Holocaust, so on some level they must realize how offensive this it and how it lacks respect for the life that person lived. It isn't beautiful or sweet, it shows that you don't respect the life or religion that the person you are baptizing chose.

Granted, compared to their anti-gay shit, this is really nothing, but it still shows how they lack respect for lives of deceased people who aren't Mormon.

[EmmieJ]

Does anyone know if Mormons really believe that men get their own planet with a ton of wives? I've always heard that is what they believed.

Don't know if that's a real Mormon belief or not, but it does remind me of the Islam concept where "believing men" will be rewarded with 40 (or 72 or some large number) of virgins waiting for them in Heaven.

I choked on my ginger ale not too long ago watching an episode of The Family Guy, when a suicide bomber arrives in heaven to his reward of many virgins, and it's all guys playing Magic The Gathering.

[Antigone]

Hah. My best friend is Mormon, and he works with Missionaries. We have an agreement, that the missionaries can talk with me about Mormonism, simply for the history and info, out of respect to his family so I don't do any big faux pas if I go over to their place or church for some social event. In return, they promise not to try and convert me. Plus, we don't live close enough to be in his "ward" so no one drops by or anything. If anything, I am a convinient friend to ask for "chaperoning" any outings he has with the missionary chicks and rot like that (they are NOT those weird poly/ LDS people, just mainstream mormons). He disliked the posthumous baptism thing and called it bullshit.

They're actually pretty cool people if you are very upfront about things. Or at least, my friend and the missionaries and church people I have met. In Utah, I have a totally different vibe and dislike going to Salt Lake City, where their Mother Ship is. Urggh. I usually feel kind of dirty after visiting there.

and I am a happy ...hmm, semi-athiest, agnostic, episcopal ex-fundie something. Whatever. God and I have our own thing going on, and that's all there is to it (shrugs) and I tend to keep it all to myself.

[Rachel333]

They're actually pretty cool people if you are very upfront about things. Or at least, my friend and the missionaries and church people I have met. In Utah, I have a totally different vibe and dislike going to Salt Lake City, where their Mother Ship is. Urggh. I usually feel kind of dirty after visiting there.

and I am a happy ...hmm, semi-athiest, agnostic, episcopal ex-fundie something. Whatever. God and I have our own thing going on, and that's all there is to it (shrugs) and I tend to keep it all to myself.

A lot of Mormons outside Utah can't stand Utah Mormons. :lol: That's probably unfair in itself since there are plenty of great people among Utah Mormons too, but I do definitely think there's something unhealthy about surrounding yourself almost solely by people who believe exactly the same as you do. I've seen that with a lot of other belief systems as well.

[SpeshulTaterTot]

I once got a BoM from a couple of missionaries. I was 17, they were cute, I talked to them for that reason alone and got the book out of it. Don't judge. :lol: I did start reading it and by the time they dropped by for their visit, I thought the whole thing was utter bullshit. I didn't open the door and pretended to be the sister I don't have.

I just realized that I might've missed my chance to become a Mormon Zsu that day. Praise Mormoni.

[Anxious Girl]

engineer5, I thought were an ex-Mormon atheist, yet you claim to work at a Mormon temple, which means you would have to be a Mormon. So which is it? Would your fellow Mormons accept if non-Mormons baptized dead Mormons' bodies?

[emiliawasframed]

engineer5, I thought were an ex-Mormon atheist, yet you claim to work at a Mormon temple, which means you would have to be a Mormon. So which is it? Would your fellow Mormons accept if non-Mormons baptized dead Mormons' bodies?

S/he claims to be an ex-atheist Mormon, not an ex-Mormon atheist.

[Anxious Girl]

S/he claims to be an ex-atheist Mormon, not an ex-Mormon atheist.

Whoops, my bad. :embarrassed:

[mlady]

A little off topic, but has anyone noticed every flippin testimonial for Christianity has some variant of I was abusing alcohol or drugs and was lost. I swear I have never heard one where people are all like was just peachy and I decided to throw God in to make it even peachier. Sorry pet peeve of mine that almost every story is the same for the numerous testimonials I've heard of had to read about. I mean I'm to the point I can almost pin point the moment the reference is going to come up and my eyes roll so far into the back of my head I think they are going to be planted there.

Yes. I don't believe anyone is doing logical investigations into any religion when this is their jumping off point. I agree they are "lost" and looking for a place to belong or feel safe (or be "saved"...from themselves) and when they find it they don't want to know anything else. They need to keep that feeling or they fall apart again.

This is going to come off sounding really arrogant but I was NEVER in a place in my life where I was lost or abusing anything or hanging out with the wrong crowd or on the wrong path. I had a normal, non religious upbringing and a pretty good brain that I used to keep myself out of trouble. I swear on everything that's holy to you....it was NOT hard.

[Mama Mia]

Yes. I don't believe anyone is doing logical investigations into any religion when this is their jumping off point. I agree they are "lost" and looking for a place to belong or feel safe (or be "saved"...from themselves) and when they find it they don't want to know anything else. They need to keep that feeling or they fall apart again.

This is going to come off sounding really arrogant but I was NEVER in a place in my life where I was lost or abusing anything or hanging out with the wrong crowd or on the wrong path. I had a normal, non religious upbringing and a pretty good brain that I used to keep myself out of trouble. I swear on everything that's holy to you....it was NOT hard.

You're right, it does sound arrogant :roll:

[mlady]

You're right, it does sound arrogant :roll:

But it's true so the eyeroll isn't necessary. Does that make me BETTER or SMARTER or LUCKIER or what? You tell me, I'm just telling you how it was. I never desired a live of alcohol, drugs or debauchery. Did you? If so, WHY? I wanted, and still want, to avoid trouble and live a good life and you don't need to be a genius to avoid certain things in life. I never NEEDED to be saved from myself by religion or any other sort of "system". I'm not perfect, I do stupid things sometimes and have made mistakes, but I didn't get to the point of needing the kind of help some people need when they convert. I've always looked at religion with a clear logical eye so it never made sense.

Beyond that I think everyone should be required to see Book of Mormon before converting. At least know the words to "I Believe" and commit them to memory.

[Rescinded and Mended]

I don't know if engineer5 is coming back, but if so, I have a question. Do you feel that, as a Mormon, you are fulfilling your potential as a man in accordance with the teachings of your faith? Is Mormonism helping you to find the things you desire in a spouse? Specifically, I'm talking about men being considered holders of the priesthood in Mormonism, and women being considered submissive helpmeets in marriage.

I'm genuinely curious. I've read that certain men who choose to convert to Mormonism in adulthood do so because they find it easier to get what they want in adult relationships with women.

[Mama Mia]

But it's true so the eyeroll isn't necessary. Does that make me BETTER or SMARTER or LUCKIER or what? You tell me, I'm just telling you how it was. I never desired a live of alcohol, drugs or debauchery. Did you? If so, WHY? I wanted, and still want, to avoid trouble and live a good life and you don't need to be a genius to avoid certain things in life. I never NEEDED to be saved from myself by religion or any other sort of "system". I'm not perfect, I do stupid things sometimes and have made mistakes, but I didn't get to the point of needing the kind of help some people need when they convert. I've always looked at religion with a clear logical eye so it never made sense.

Beyond that I think everyone should be required to see Book of Mormon before converting. At least know the words to "I Believe" and commit them to memory.

The eyeroll is needed because what is the point you are trying to make, except that you didn't become addicted to anything. Most people don't. How is that something to brag about? It's like someone who has always had money bragging about never needing food stamps. Or someone who has never been seriously ill saying how they never take medicine. So what?

Some people who are addicts get sober by relying on religion. If it stops them from throwing their lives, and the lives of everyone around them, in the garbage..how is that a problem?

If they become so extreme in their religious conversion that they start abusing their family, that is a problem. But you can safely bet they were abusing and/or neglecting/ traumatizing their family in one way or another through their addiction.

[PennySycamore]

I forgot what poster it was above that asked about how Joseph Smith may have been influenced by sci-fi. Joseph Smith was murdered in 1944. Jules Verne flourished from the 1860s to the beginning of the Twentieth Century and HG Wells was a bit later, not being born until the 1860s. Mary Shelley had written Frankenstein which is considered to be the first science fiction novel in 1819. What is definitely true is that scientific discoveries (planets, elements, etc) were coming at a fairly rapid pace in the late 1700s into the 1800s and we were also beginning to see first efforts in archaeology.

ET a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science_fiction

[Trynn]

That surprises me somewhat. :lol: I have my own BoM (given to me by some really lovely sister missionaries who I met with for a while, so I'm actually fond of it for that reason), but I've never quite made it all the way through because it is so boring and poorly written. I'm pretty sure you could take out a third of it just from eliminating all the instances of "it came to pass." :lol:

So true. It really does read like someone from the 21st (well. 19th, actually, but whatever) century read the 1611 KJV and then tried to imitate the writing style.

Kinda like my friends and dad and I do on occasion... And lo, Adam and eve were high on a mountain, and behold, it came to pass...

I haven't even plowed my way through 1 Nephi yet.

[Trynn]

As far as the "drugs sex and alcohol" testimonies go... Well, they were the most interesting to us. I'd write more if I werent on my phone and had an actual key board, but the way these testimonies were told, even though they were used as "so don't do this at home, kids," made this lifestyle sound more desirable.

Also, people with these testimonies tended to be the most well known, so I, at least, associated a testimony like that with being able to do more for the Lord, because you could reach so many more people who'd been just like you.

That, and genetic factors, are why I have a bit of a drug problem. When you're told that his is what rebels do, and you want to rebel, this is what you do.

This is why, when I did get back into the church, I vowed never to tell anyone my testimony (it's up in the air as to whether I will remain in the church, ftr).

[Syd+Marky]

But it's true so the eyeroll isn't necessary. Does that make me BETTER or SMARTER or LUCKIER or what? You tell me, I'm just telling you how it was. I never desired a live of alcohol, drugs or debauchery. Did you? If so, WHY? I wanted, and still want, to avoid trouble and live a good life and you don't need to be a genius to avoid certain things in life. I never NEEDED to be saved from myself by religion or any other sort of "system". I'm not perfect, I do stupid things sometimes and have made mistakes, but I didn't get to the point of needing the kind of help some people need when they convert. I've always looked at religion with a clear logical eye so it never made sense.

Beyond that I think everyone should be required to see Book of Mormon before converting. At least know the words to "I Believe" and commit them to memory.

No, you don't need to be a genius to avoid certain things-otherwise a genius wouldn't find themselves addicted to drugs, because a genius can be an addict too.Since you have never had any of these issues, why would you understand the need those people have when they convert?I don't think that means that those people are not looking at religion with a clear, logical eye, though.They are just looking through their own eyes and not yours.

As for watching The Book of Mormon and memorizing "I Believe" before converting-Are you seriously suggesting that one should watch a Broadway Musical before converting?Or am I misunderstanding something?Whats wrong with reading and memorizing the 13 Articals of Faith?

[Cheesemaker]

I forgot what poster it was above that asked about how Joseph Smith may have been influenced by sci-fi. Joseph Smith was murdered in 1944. Jules Verne flourished from the 1860s to the beginning of the Twentieth Century and HG Wells was a bit later, not being born until the 1860s. Mary Shelley had written Frankenstein which is considered to be the first science fiction novel in 1819. What is definitely true is that scientific discoveries (planets, elements, etc) were coming at a fairly rapid pace in the late 1700s into the 1800s and we were also beginning to see first efforts in archaeology.

ET a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science_fiction

Actually JSmith died in 1844....

[lilwriter85]

There are theories that the Joseph Smith/BOM's claims about the Native Americans being descendants from Jews were inspired by other previous claims and theories.